Current WAR CRIMES Israel - Hamas Conflict

[Zidane98]

Ok, so how many rockets were launched by Hamas this month? How many in October 2023?

How much damage was caused by Hamas rockets this month? Ignore Israeli deaths, I think I know the answer to that one.

Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran/Houthis are all effectively the one party fighting Israel in this war. Hezbollah has been bombarding Israel recently massively. We seen what happened in the Druze community. Iran just in the last few days have been threatening a mass attack on Israel. The schitick it's all good if Israel defends it successfully doesn't make any logical sense.


Not sure I get your argument about how many deaths an attack causes. Attempted murder and murder is generally treated very similarly in law. The intent is the same.

The party to blame here is Iran who instead of arming Hamas could have been providing defensive weaponry to help its ally mitigate civilian deaths in war.

 

[jason_recliner]

Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran/Houthis are all effectively the one party fighting Israel in this war. Hezbollah has been bombarding Israel recently massively. We seen what happened in the Druze community. Iran just in the last few days have been threatening a mass attack on Israel. The schitick it's all good if Israel defends it successfully doesn't make any logical sense.


Not sure I get your argument about how many deaths an attack causes. Attempted murder and murder is generally treated very similarly in law. The intent is the same.

The party to blame here is Iran who instead of arming Hamas could have been providing defensive weaponry to help its ally mitigate civilian deaths in war.

If the rockets aren't being launched from Palestine, and Hamas is a few thousand idiots running around with AKs, and Israel has one of the most advanced militaries, it's not a war. I disagree that the impact of the rockets is not relevant. If they are not killing anybody, it's not possible to justify endless civilian murders IMO. Hence my comment this is no longer a war with Hamas, it's a one sided bombardment and occupation of a defenceless effectively harmless civilian population. It needs to stop.

 

[Zidane98]

If the rockets aren't being launched from Palestine, and Hamas is a few thousand idiots running around with AKs, and Israel has one if the most advanced militaries, it's not a war. I disagree that the impact of the rockets is not relevant. If they are not killing anybody, it's not possible to justify endless civilian murders IMO. Hence my comment this is no longer a war with Hamas, it's a one sided bombardment and occupation of a defenceless effectively harmless civilian population. It needs to stop.

Nothing ever justifies civilian murder and the war between Israel / Iran needs to stop right now.

 

[jason_recliner]

Nothing ever justifies civilian murder and the war between Israel / Iran needs to stop right now.

Israel and Iran are not at war. Maybe it could be described as a cold war. There are skirmishes. This has been ongoing for decades, is unlikely to stop any time soon, and the consequences of it continuing are relatively minor.

Israel IS currently mass-murdering a defenceless innocent civilian population. THAT'S what needs to stop right now, and should not be diminished or complicated by conflating and obfuscating with broad geopolitical factors. Israel has the power but not the will to stop this today.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

I consider myself pro-Palestinian (= anti-Hamas) so I'll bite. Where was that tent located? When was the footage recorded?

From what little I understand of conditions over there, I suspect any new weapons are smuggled from Iran via tunnels to Egypt. Given the Israeli presence at the Rafah border this supply is likely extremely constrained. The tunnels would now need to be very, very long, very well hidden, and of high structural integrity.

Exactly. That’s where all the aid money went during the past decades, when it could and should have been used to build a safe, productive economy for the Palestinian people. Over 600km of tunnels, fully equipped with sophisticated technology and provisions for lengthy survival of operatives. The Israelis discovered many more tunnels than they already knew about when they arrived in Rafah.

(I didn’t post the tent clip, btw.)

 

[jason_recliner]

Exactly. That’s where all the aid money went during the past decades, when it could and should have been used to build a safe, productive economy for the Palestinian people. Over 600km of tunnels, fully equipped with sophisticated technology and provisions for lengthy survival of operatives. The Israelis discovered many more tunnels than they already knew about when they arrived in Rafah.

(I didn’t post the tent clip, btw.)

What safe, productive economic activities do you think would have worked in a resource-constrained imprisoned state? (Other than maids and cheap labour for Israelis)

It's a disgrace that aid was directed away from the population at need to build tunnels for criminal enterprises. I think many of those tunnels would have been found and destroyed by now.

 

[faible]

In Gaza, Israel’s Military Has Reached the End of the Line, U.S. Officials Say

Israel has severely set back Hamas but will never be able to completely eliminate the group, U.S. officials said.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

This isn't true. Map of Gaza


View attachment 2079890

There's plenty of areas for military operations by Hamas without endangering Gazan civilinas. A reasonable person must deduce that Hamas deliberately operate from civilian areas in an attempt to attack Israeli civilians with impunity. I note the fighting in your streets & homes reference which implies Hamas are not to blame here.

They've gotten themselves long range rockets with guidance systems. Not the stuff a typical insurgent terrorist group has.

A reasonable person would laugh at the thought of Hamas operating in the open under skies patrolled by drones 24/7.

Good way to commit suicide though.

 

[faible]

What to Know About the State of the Cease-Fire Talks

As tensions in the Middle East escalate, negotiators are set to meet in Qatar to try to reach an agreement to end the war in Gaza. President Biden said he was “not giving up” but that it was “getting harder” to remain optimistic.

www.nytimes.com

Some further information regarding that UN endorsed ceasefire:

June: U.N. Security Council passes a cease-fire resolution.

The United Nations Security Council on June 10 adopted a cease-fire plan backed by the United States, with 14 nations in favor and Russia abstaining. Linda Thomas-Greenfield, the American ambassador to the United Nations, said that the United States would work to make sure that Israel agreed to the deal and that Qatar and Egypt would work to bring Hamas to the negotiating table.

The resolution followed the same framework that Mr. Biden had endorsed, outlining a three-phase plan that would begin with an immediate cease-fire, the release of all living hostages in exchange for Palestinians being held in Israeli prisons, the return of displaced Gazans to their homes and the full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza. The second phase called for a permanent cease-fire with the agreement of both parties, and the third phase consisted of a multiyear reconstruction plan for Gaza and the return of the remains of deceased hostages.

Reads to me that despite the UN endorsing it, neither party had actually agreed to it.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

If you're the slightest bit interested in peace you should be looking at ways for Palestinian governance of the Gaza strip that wants to actually have a working relationship with Israel while also looking at ways to force Israel to accept Palestinian statehood even though the fact that all previous times it did it was attacked for doing so.

Why do you continue to labour under this fabrication?

Please tell me about the time that Israel accepted Palestinian statehood, and was attacked for it.

 

[Kurve]

What safe, productive economic activities do you think would have worked in a resource-constrained imprisoned state? (Other than maids and cheap labour for Israelis)

Tech and tourism. Gaza beach could be quite lovely, as good as Tel Aviv.

 

[Jazny]

One thing is for sure -the IDF are definitely not going around causing as many civilian deaths as possible.

Nobody genuinely believes they are, at least no serious person.

 

[Zidane98]

Israel and Iran are not at war. Maybe it could be described as a cold war. There are skirmishes. This has been ongoing for decades, is unlikely to stop any time soon, and the consequences of it continuing are relatively minor.

Israel IS currently mass-murdering a defenceless innocent civilian population. THAT'S what needs to stop right now, and should not be diminished or complicated by conflating and obfuscating with broad geopolitical factors. Israel has the power but not the will to stop this today.

This is simply not reality. Iran & proxies have repeatedly declared their intent to destroy the state of Israel and have also taken actions to achieve that aim. There's nothing geopolitical about it at all - Iran repeatedly expresses its desire to destroy Israel and acts on it.

Hamas also still holds hostages as collateral in this war on Israel.

Both could end the war tomorrow by standing down all attacks on Israel & immediate return of all hostages plus remains of dead hostages.

 

[jason_recliner]

Tech and tourism. Gaza beach could be quite lovely, as good as Tel Aviv.

Neither are feasible.

 

[jason_recliner]

Iran & proxies have repeatedly declared their intent to destroy the state of Israel

Yes.

and have also taken actions to achieve that aim.

Incorrect.

There's nothing geopolitical about it at all - Iran repeatedly expresses its desire to destroy Israel and acts on it.

Hamas also still holds hostages as collateral in this war on Israel.

Both could end the war tomorrow by standing down all attacks on Israel & immediate return of all hostages plus remains of dead hostages.

The realgeopolitik (feel free to attack for being twee) will take years, decades, or may not ever be resolved. Israel can use it as an excuse to murder civilians or stop. There's no material threat to the state of Israel or else Israel would have failed by now.

 

[Kurve]

Neither are feasible.

Not now but there was a few tech start ups in Gaza before October 7. If security wasn't an issue, tourism could boom there and it's not like there weren't any reasonable sized hotels on the strip because there was, I don't know if they'd still be standing now.

 

[jason_recliner]

Not now but there was a few tech start ups in Gaza before October 7. If security wasn't an issue, tourism could boom there and it's not like there weren't any reasonable sized hotels on the strip because there was, I don't know if they'd still be standing now.

Security IS an issue there and has been for decades, including security of food and water. Imports are strictly controlled and capital is scarce so it's impossible to build anything aesthetically appealing (based on the footage I've seen). Just getting there is relatively challenging. Overseas holidays are a scarce luxury for most. Most would choose Egypt, UAE or SA instead.

I don't know anything about a few tech startups but they don't sound like they're going to make 2,000,000 people wealthy.

Palestine will be substantially reliant on aid until it is a free sovereign state.

 

[Jazny]

There's not exactly an abundance of non-civilian land for them to use. This is also how guerilla warfare looks when you're living under military oppression. Fighting in your streets and your homes.

And since apparently every single post needs a disclaimer, no, this doesn't mean the war crimes or violations of IHL and IHRL by Hamas or similar groups are acceptable.

How does this post make sense though? Your second paragraph negates your first paragraph, since what is being talked about is a breach of IHL primarily, and you are against it. If what Zidane's saying is true, that rocket attack would almost certainly be a clear breach of IHL in at least two different ways. So if you believe what you wrote in your second paragraph, then you are by default agreeing with him which makes your first paragraph strange.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Nobody genuinely believes they are, at least no serious person.

Nobody believes they are killing as many as possible.

But they are killing civilians deliberately.

This Jewish doctor who spent 2 weeks operating on Gazans certainly does. Does he have a better idea than you, maybe?

How many children with double tapped bullet wounds would you expect from an army doing eveything it possibly can to avoid civilian casualties?

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Tech and tourism. Gaza beach could be quite lovely, as good as Tel Aviv.

Israel would never allow it.

 

[Kurve]

Israel would never allow it.

They haven't allowed tourism in to Gaza since Hamas took over. Up until very recently, there were no problems at all as a foreigner going in to the West Bank for business or tourism purposes.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

Israel would never allow it.

Of course not. Can't let anyone see the apartheid.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

They haven't allowed tourism in to Gaza since Hamas took over. Up until very recently, there were no problems at all as a foreigner going in to the West Bank for business or tourism purposes.

You were talking about a beach in Gaza?

Israel wouldn't let them export strawberries, why would they let them have a tourist economy or tech sector?

 

[Zidane98]

They haven't allowed tourism in to Gaza since Hamas took over. Up until very recently, there were no problems at all as a foreigner going in to the West Bank for business or tourism purposes.

For Gaza to thrive two things need to happen

A) Gaza & West Bank to be governed by a unified Palestinian government. Israel & Palestine must recognise each other's independence.

B) Israel must not be involved in Gaza at all. Saudi Arabia & the Arab league should be the major donor of aid until such a time that all of Palestine can be self sufficient. The absolute only involvement of Israel should be the operation of the Gaza / Israel border (Israel having no say in the Egypt border)

There is no hope for Gazans as long as Hamas run the place unless Hamas somehow drastically changes into a more secular government that's prepared to deal with Israel (unlikely but you never know)

 

[Kurve]

You were talking about a beach in Gaza?

Israel wouldn't let them export strawberries, why would they let them have a tourist economy or tech sector?

Hamas.

Aside, they did have money going in for some tech start ups which was providing some work.