Current WAR CRIMES Israel - Hamas Conflict

[Ghost Patrol]

Remember when Israel revised the death toll down, because they realised that some of the bodies they incinerated were Hamas.

 

[Jazny]

The facts are the IDF shot and killed Israeli civilians, whilst they were visibly shirtless, unarmed and waving a white flag.

We've been over it and what's with the smiley face?

 

[faible]

We've been over it and what's with the smiley face?

Zidane was very concerned with sticking to the facts. I provided some for him, with a smile because I'm a nice guy.

 

[Zidane98]

The facts are the IDF shot and killed Israeli civilians, whilst they were visibly shirtless, unarmed and waving a white flag.

Telling you put a smiley face on the end of your post.

 

[ZEV]

It's understandable you continue to fail to address any of my points as you are unable. That's okay - continue to post your funny little bollocks (how about posting that little link again, as if that proves your ignorance), falsehoods and self-contradictions. Iran is a pariah state, eh? Do you know what that means? How about, they are "cut off and isolated from the rest of the world". i.e. they would have very little to lose by waging war against a militarily inferior state or non-state actor, especially if they considered that destruction of that state was in their interests. It's weird that they don't, and that all of their attacks using their world leading weaponry are ineffective, isn't it?

Actually, if you understood anything about modern warfare, and military technology and power, you'd understand how this could be so. I'm not convinced you even know what "ballistic" means (and, hence, why such weapons, even when hypersonic, achieve very little in military gains against an advanced defence force like the IDF).

Iran does not have the budget or means for expeditionary capability.

Nor does Israel.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Iran does not have the budget or means for expeditionary capability.

Nor does Israel.

I thought this was the case also, but how else do you take on the Party of God?

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Correct and I don't think there's ever been, even in its most wild interpretation, that its okay to endanger or kill civilians to prevent them being taken hostage.

Ok so your with me most of the way. You're just more willing to speculate that a large number were killed by friendly fire, whereas I am more willing just to wait for actual evidence.

You're going to be waiting a while. IDF won't investigate until 'the war' is over. They already tried to bulldoze the Be'eri house.

Does it concern you that the evidence you are relying on though is based on a lot of conjecture? Wouldn't subsequent investigators who are responsible for identifying bodies be able to confirm that a number of these casualties were Israeli? Are they covering it up? Or just didn't bother investigating it properly?

They found plenty of burnt Israeli bodies in cars that had been incinerated. When you hear that 28 attack helicopters emptied their full complement of ammunition, and that pilots have stated on record they attacked anything that moved with little regard to the occupants, how can you not understand what happened?

Is there a ledger somewhere I don't know about where each Israeli casualty has a cause of death listed, and the source of the ordnance? They have stated they aren't investigating anything about Oct 7th until 'the war' is over. The entire Israeli response is subject to a cover up, yes.

Evidence is never going to be available. Zaka had the brilliant idea of shredding then burying these vehicles very quickly.

I am not saying that your version is 100% wrong, at the moment I just don't have a good reason to believe that friendly fire was all that widespread and suggestions otherwise are relying on heavy amounts of speculation and other assumptions.

When your military does not cooperate with any neutral investigation, even refusing anyone into the country to report - it's the easiest thing in the world for you to come into this thread and claim there's no evidence of anything. That's why they do it.

There are plenty of officially reported quotes from IDF sources. Witnesses at Be'eri you're happy to call liars. You may call them speculations and assumptions all you like, but you certainly have a different level of proof when it comes to other events on that day.

How could Israel keep a running tab on how many enemy they have killed though? Were the IDF soldiers like Legolas and Gimli keeping a running count?

IDF claim ~1,400 Israelis killed as there are bodies in a state difficult to identify.

Then the IDF revise that down to ~1,200, because 200 of those bodies are confirmed to be Hamas.

Those 200 Hamas members did not kill themselves. The IDF did. The IDF actually thought for a while they had killed 200 more Israelis than whatever they've officially owned up to.

It took weeks to identify some of the remains, some of them turned out to be Israeli and some of them Hamas. Hamas did not shoot their own vehicles with RPGs.

Need I remind you Israel has offered no evidence that Hamas burned these people, or given an explanation how.

As far as the IDF keeping count is concerned, every casualty gets counted as a victim of Hamas. **** even the innocent Palestinians killed by the IDF in Gaza get counted as victims of Hamas if you listen to Israeli commentary and it's supporters.

The numbers used by the IDF to come up with the fantasy civilian/combatant ratio mean every Palestinian man 18-59 killed is a terrorist.

Okay so what are we left with. No reason at all to believe attack helicopters killed a bunch of civilians at Nova, no good reason to believe the IDF account of the stand off at the house in be'eri is wrong in their finding that 12 of the 13 hostages were killed by terrorist small arms fire, the other by shrapnel from an indeterminate cause.

You might cry about believing the IDF, but these investigations can potentially be subject to legal scrutiny, so dismissing them altogether is just as, if not far more, ridiculous than taking them at their word. Also according to the Jewish Chronicle, separate forensic archeology done at the house came to a similar conclusion. It's hard to dismiss this, but at the same time I don't expect people to 100% believe it either. But remember, the burden of proof is on those making the positive claim that Israeli tank fire using the hannibal directive is responsible for the deaths of 13 hostages. The evidence we have is not even close to establishing that.

Until better evidence is available, I am dismissing the Be'Eri tank incident as a case of hannibal almost entirely apart from maybe the one killed by shrapnel.

Hiram admitted ordering the tank to fire despite knowing there were civilians in the home. There is footage of the tank shooting into the house. The two survivors testify to it.

13 hostages were killed. Caught in the middle of a firefight, 12 of them were apparently killed by AK-47.

1 via shrapnel from an indeterminant cause. Wouldn't be the tank shells fired into the house?

I don't particularly care about this event, but your adherence to the IDF line is getting hard to take seriously.

 

[Kurve]

The facts are the IDF shot and killed Israeli civilians, whilst they were visibly shirtless, unarmed and waving a white flag.

They did do that but, they also admitted to it when I'd have thought if there was going to be a cover up, this is one incident where they might have been highly motivated to try it on.

 

[Jazny]

You're going to be waiting a while.

That's okay, I don't have any narrative I am trying to push, so I can wait for actual evidence.

In the mean time your post was long and added nothing that hasn't already been discussed... So instead of going around and around in circles, I stand by my previous post on the topic and am happy to move on to the next topic.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

That's okay, I don't have any narrative I am trying to push, so I can wait for actual evidence.

In the mean time your post was long and added nothing knew to the conversation that hasn't already been addressed. So instead of going around and around in circles, I stand by my previous post on the topic.

I'm not trying to push a narrative. I don't particularly care if Israel kills its own people. They will never release any evidence of anything they don't want to, nor allow anyone to investigate actual events.

How do you explain those 200 Hamas deaths though?

If you're happy to be led around like a puppy by Israel, bully for you.

 

[Zidane98]

I'm not trying to push a narrative. I don't particularly care if Israel kills its own people. They will never release any evidence of anything they don't want to, nor allow anyone to investigate actual events.

How do you explain those 200 Hamas deaths though?

If you're happy to be led around like a puppy by Israel, bully for you.

You are trying to push a narrative here. It isnt backed up by factual information at all

Infact, much of this comes from Apache footage falsely attributed by the likes of Jackson Hinkle & other known disinformation sources:



Sorry that this destroys your narrative but it's reality unless you are prepared to claim Israeli civilians were fleeing in to Gaza.


It is also of note that Hamas actually murdering hundreds of its own citizens in the Ah Ahli hospital massacre barely rates a mention in your posting history..

So while you're clearly happy to claim Israel were deliberately gunning down its own citizens with little to no evidence you say nothing against Hamas despite conclusive and overwhelming evidence that they murdered hundreds of Gazan citizens with a failed attempt to murder hundreds of Israeli civilians.

On the evidence of your posting history it is pretty obvious you are pursuing a narrative.

 

[DapperDon]

That's okay, I don't have any narrative I am trying to push, so I can wait for actual evidence.

In the mean time your post was long and added nothing that hasn't already been discussed... So instead of going around and around in circles, I stand by my previous post on the topic and am happy to move on to the next topic.

Sand

 

[Jazny]

Sand

Yes we know you have nothing worthwhile to add to the conversation, you don't have to keep reminding us.

 

[Jazny]

How do you explain those 200 Hamas deaths though?

The initial collection was done by ZAKA, they aren't IDF and not forensic experts. I believe the Israeli police were responsible for the early estimated casualty numbers. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion "The IDF actually thought for a while they had killed 200 more Israelis than whatever they've officially owned up to".

“This is the updated number, It is due to the fact that there were a lot of corpses that were not identified and now we think those belong to terrorists … not Israeli casualties.” Lior Haiat

They seemed to just add all initially un-identifiable bodies to the total then corrected it as they positively IDed them. How is this something that needs an explanation beyond that?

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

You are trying to push a narrative here. It isnt backed up by factual information at all

Infact, much of this comes from Apache footage falsely attributed by the likes of Jackson Hinkle & other known disinformation sources:



Sorry that this destroys your narrative but it's reality unless you are prepared to claim Israeli civilians were fleeing in to Gaza.


It is also of note that Hamas actually murdering hundreds of its own citizens in the Ah Ahli hospital massacre barely rates a mention in your posting history..

So while you're clearly happy to claim Israel were deliberately gunning down its own citizens with little to no evidence you say nothing against Hamas despite conclusive and overwhelming evidence that they murdered hundreds of Gazan citizens with a failed attempt to murder hundreds of Israeli civilians.

On the evidence of your posting history it is pretty obvious you are pursuing a narrative.

Its pretty clear you've either not read or not understood my posts at all, please refrain from engaging me again.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

The initial collection was done by ZAKA, they aren't IDF and not forensic experts. I believe the Israeli police were responsible for the early estimated casualty numbers. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion "The IDF actually thought for a while they had killed 200 more Israelis than whatever they've officially owned up to".

“This is the updated number, It is due to the fact that there were a lot of corpses that were not identified and now we think those belong to terrorists … not Israeli casualties.” Lior Haiat

They seemed to just add all initially un-identifiable bodies to the total then corrected it as they positively IDed them. How is this something that needs an explanation beyond that?

These Zaka people are the exact same people you are hanging your entire claim of Hamas rape on. When those bodies made it to the experts, there was no evidence of sexual assault found. Nothing noted or recorded or reported at all. But that's good enough for you when it suits.

Lets try and break it down. Those unidentified corpses - who killed them? It wasnt Hamas killing theselves, it was IDF.

So the 1,400 Israeli casualty number was released, with no mention of the fact that the IDF had killed hundreds of those people.

Are you following? Does that make sense?

 

[Zidane98]

Its pretty clear you've either not read or not understood my posts at all, please refrain from engaging me again.

In other words you have no rebuttal. What a surprise.

 

[faible]

They did do that but, they also admitted to it when I'd have thought if there was going to be a cover up, this is one incident where they might have been highly motivated to try it on.

I'm not sure what the IDF admitted to in one instance is all that informative as to whether or not they did something and didn't admit it in another.

The UN found they've committed war crimes, crimes against humanity and violated both IHL and IHRL. They're about as trustworthy as the Russian military.

 

[faible]

Telling you put a smiley face on the end of your post.

You keep using this term, but I'm not sure you actually know what you're saying.

 

[Jazny]

These Zaka people are the exact same people you are hanging your entire claim of Hamas rape on. When those bodies made it to the experts, there was no evidence of sexual assault found. Nothing noted or recorded or reported at all. But that's good enough for you when it suits.

False. Have you read anything on this subject aside from The Intercept? Are you really going to stand by "These Zaka people are the exact same people you are hanging your entire claim of Hamas rape on"

These talks get very boring if you don't stick to the arguments being made.

Lets try and break it down. Those unidentified corpses - who killed them? It wasnt Hamas killing theselves, it was IDF.

So the 1,400 Israeli casualty number was released, with no mention of the fact that the IDF had killed hundreds of those people.

Are you following? Does that make sense?

It honestly makes no sense. How would they know who killed who? If they find a burned out car with bodies in it, how would the first responders know who caused it? What I would assume happens is they document the site, retrieve the bodies, then the morgue counts them, adds the victims to the tally, if it subsequently turns out they were Hamas, they change the count.

What you seem to think happens is they find the scene, know instantly they were all killed by Israeli tanks or helicopters because its known the IDF were in a blood frenzy emptying ammo on everything that moved, report it as friendly fire, don't tell the public, then try to blame it on Hamas, then sigh relief when they discover 200 of them were Hamas.

I can't say for a 100% fact who is right, but given how the real world tends to work, I'm guessing my telling is far closer to reality. That why it was uncontroversial when the count changed. It doesn't prove anything.

 

[Kurve]

I'm not sure what the IDF admitted to in one instance is all that informative as to whether or not they did something and didn't admit it in another.

The UN found they've committed war crimes, crimes against humanity and violated both IHL and IHRL. They're about as trustworthy as the Russian military.

They won't get away with writing deaths up as Hamas responsible if it was IDF in Apaches, that incidentally the vision in, is good enough to read license plates and distinguish between Israeli and Gazan registered vehicles, it's also good enough to determine what kind of weapons people on the ground are carrying, male and female.

And it's all recorded.

There's going to be thousands of claims made against the government and while some say there are no investigations being done, there is. The lawyers are already on to it, not even Bibi will be able to hold them back.

 

[faible]

Gaza Health Ministry revises death count to specify the difference between identified and unidentified deaths, people lose their minds. Israel revises death count down by ~ 15% all is good.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

In other words you have no rebuttal. What a surprise.

You're claiming my argument relies on some twitter people you dont like, whom I've not read, to discredit it. Some footage I never referenced, to discredit it. You're claiming I'm making arguments I've explicitly stated I am not making.

You may think this is great discussion techniques but you're just wasting my time.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

It honestly makes no sense. How would they know who killed who? If they find a burned out car with bodies in it, how would the first responders know who caused it? What I would assume happens is they document the site, retrieve the bodies, then the morgue counts them, adds the victims to the tally, if it subsequently turns out they were Hamas, they change the count.

You're probably right, they dont make any claims as to who killed who at this point.

When they release the number of Israeli dead as 1,400, the assumption is they were all killed by Hamas, right? They dont mention anything about who killed the 1,400, because they dont really know, and people would be pretty outraged to think a substantial portion of those were killed by the IDF, right?

Bit in 'the real world', unless you think Hamas are in the habit of blowing up their own vehicles when trying to return to Gaza, sometimes with hostages, the IDF actually did kill a good chunk of those people. At minimum they killed 200 of those people, who are now known to be Hamas.

This is not really debatable. This seems self-evident to me. I'd love to hear if you think I've gone wrong here.

Hellfire missiles and 30mm cannon (whose shells impact like a grenade I'm told) are not known for their surgical accuracy. You can pretty much guarantee if a car is struck by them, the inhabitants arent walking it off.

Given it would be impossible for helicopter and tank crew to know whether a car is populated by Hamas exclusively or if it carries Israelis, if 200 Hamas were killed by IDF, it stands to reason some of the remaining 1,200 Israelis were also. And given we've already seen the IDF arent in the habit of telling people they're actually responsible for fatalities, but are happy for people to assume Hamas are responsible, I have grave doubts we'll ever know.

What you seem to think happens is they find the scene, know instantly they were all killed by Israeli tanks or helicopters because its known the IDF were in a blood frenzy emptying ammo on everything that moved, report it as friendly fire, don't tell the public, then try to blame it on Hamas, then sigh relief when they discover 200 of them were Hamas.

I can't say for a 100% fact who is right, but given how the real world tends to work, I'm guessing my telling is far closer to reality. That why it was uncontroversial when the count changed. It doesn't prove anything.

Yeah I'm not saying that at all, I must have lost you somewhere.

 

[Zidane98]

You're claiming my argument relies on some twitter people you dont like, whom I've not read, to discredit it. Some footage I never referenced, to discredit it. You're claiming I'm making arguments I've explicitly stated I am not making.

You may think this is great discussion techniques but you're just wasting my time.

You are pushing a narrative that the IDF killed hundreds of Israeli citizens on Oct 7 deliberately using the so called Hannibal directive. Many of them allegedly by Israeli apache helicopters gunning them down in their cars at the nova festival. Your source, Jackson Hinkle (an absolute bastion of truthful reporting btw) cited a video of an Apache helicopter gunning down vehicles as evidence of this.

This footage however has been proven of vehicles crossing back into Gaza at the border on Oct 7 being attacked by Israeli attack helicopters.

I'll reference it again because you attempted to ignore it last time:

x.com

x.com

You should try fact checking in the future. Clearly a concept you have trouble understanding.

Another thing - we have plenty of videos of Hamas themselves massacring Israelis.


You claim IDF were also gunning down Israelis - where is the footage and evidence of this happening? Everyone has a phone these days, Israel isn't a dictatorship where the average person can't upload stuff to the internet. The Apache helicopter has been debunked as evidence so what do you have left to support your narrative?