Current WAR CRIMES Israel - Hamas Conflict

[faible]

Israel accused of killing its own civilians under the 'Hannibal Directive' to avoid them being taken hostage

The controversial "Hannibal Directive", which Israel says isn't named for the famous Carthaginian general who took poison rather than be captured by the Romans, was reportedly enacted after the October 7 Hamas attack, with revelations detailing attacks by IDF tanks and helicopters on homes and...

www.abc.net.au

I assume this article is why it came up?

 

[Zidane98]

They won't get away with writing deaths up as Hamas responsible if it was IDF in Apaches, that incidentally the vision in, is good enough to read license plates and distinguish between Israeli and Gazan registered vehicles, it's also good enough to determine what kind of weapons people on the ground are carrying, male and female.

And it's all recorded.

There's going to be thousands of claims made against the government and while some say there are no investigations being done, there is. The lawyers are already on to it, not even Bibi will be able to hold them back.

Logical posting here.


There are also many, many people with phones in southern Israel on Oct 7 plus CCTV. Many of them captured Hamas on their murderous rampage.

There however is virtually no footage of IDF attacking anyone other than Hamas terrorists. Bearing in mind everyone has a phone in Israel and all generally have access to internet services.


Considering the above factual information a person using reasoning & logic can came to only one conclusion here.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

You are pushing a narrative that the IDF killed hundreds of Israeli citizens on Oct 7 deliberately using the so called Hannibal directive. Many of them allegedly by Israeli apache helicopters gunning them down in their cars at the nova festival. Your source, Jackson Hinkle (an absolute bastion of truthful reporting btw) cited a video of an Apache helicopter gunning down vehicles as evidence of this.

This footage however has been proven of vehicles crossing back into Gaza at the border on Oct 7 being attacked by Israeli attack helicopters.

I'll reference it again because you attempted to ignore it last time:

x.com

x.com

You should try fact checking in the future. Clearly a concept you have trouble understanding.

Another thing - we have plenty of videos of Hamas themselves massacring Israelis.


You claim IDF were also gunning down Israelis - where is the footage and evidence of this happening? Everyone has a phone these days, Israel isn't a dictatorship where the average person can't upload stuff to the internet. The Apache helicopter has been debunked as evidence so what do you have left to support your narrative?

Jackson Hinkle is my source for nothing. The footage is irrelevant as your feeble attempts.

You really want to go down the path of 'if nobody filmed it, it didnt happen?'

Begone, Ziobot.

 

[faible]

Considering the above factual information a person using reasoning & logic can came to only one conclusion here.

Glorious

 

[Zidane98]

Jackson Hinkle is my source for nothing. The footage is irrelevant as your feeble attempts.

You really want to go down the path of 'if nobody filmed it, it didnt happen?'

Begone, Ziobot.

Hilarious that you try and make a strawman argument after your last lost of posts.

It is abundantly clear that fact checking & logical reasoning are things you struggle with when it comes to the Hamas - Israel war.

Maybe with other stuff you aren't so one eyed.

 

[Jazny]

You're probably right, they dont make any claims as to who killed who at this point.

When they release the number of Israeli dead as 1,400, the assumption is they were all killed by Hamas, right? They dont mention anything about who killed the 1,400, because they dont really know, and people would be pretty outraged to think a substantial portion of those were killed by the IDF, right?

It's just an estimated death toll from the event.

Bit in 'the real world', unless you think Hamas are in the habit of blowing up their own vehicles when trying to return to Gaza, sometimes with hostages, the IDF actually did kill a good chunk of those people. At minimum they killed 200 of those people, who are now known to be Hamas.

This is not really debatable. This seems self-evident to me. I'd love to hear if you think I've gone wrong here.

This argument doesn't follow. The miscalculation of the early death count has nothing to do with how the ISF identified their targets.

Friendly fire happened to some extent on the day, we know that. It seems pretty isolated at this point based on all the available evidence. If you're arguing that this was widespread because "28 attack helicopters emptied their full complement of ammunition, and that pilots have stated on record they attacked anything that moved with little regard to the occupants" so the ISF killed a whole heap of civilians, then I am going to need some serious evidence, not just a totally understandable miscount of hard to identify bodies which says nothing about how they were identified as targets by the ISF when they were killed.

The miscount seems to have very little to do with the argument you're trying to make.

Of course it's possible some more friendly fire happened than what we know about, but as more investigations have been carried out from the time of those early death counts, it would be very obvious to investigators how many Israelis were killed by friendly fire at this point.

If it was as widespread as some would like to believe, we would have a lot of witness testimony already. Probably footage as some have pointed out, probably Hamas releasing damning footage of Israelis killing their own civilians seeing how Hamas did capture a lot of footage from the event, and I imagine their would be a number of whistleblowers going to Haaretz with some serious allegations. None of that seems to be the case as of now.

If any of this changes in the future, I will re-examine it then. Don't see why I should be jumping to wild conclusions right now.

 

[DapperDon]

Hilarious that you try and make a strawman argument after your last lost of posts.

It is abundantly clear that fact checking & logical reasoning are things you struggle with when it comes to the Hamas - Israel war.

Maybe with other stuff you aren't so one eyed.

Are you programmed to do other things or are you just made to deny and ignore information that hasn't been uploaded to your system?

 

[Zidane98]

Why don't you agree with pro-Hamas anti-Israel rhetoric without fact checking first

EFA

 

[faible]

Are you programmed to do other things or are you just made to deny and ignore information that hasn't been uploaded to your system?

I'm convinced he just regurgitates terms he's read other people use. His repeated use of strawman and telling for example, despite it often not quite fitting the context he's using them in.

 

[Ballarat Bob]

That Hamas murdered the six hostages when they were cornered is sadly not a surprise and Israel would be well aware that this would more than likely happen. Hamas have only one reason to hold hostages and they won't surrender them for nothing. Bibi might not have directly stated that the Hannibal directive is policy but by persisting with wiping out Hamas in its entirety it certainly looks like the hostages are expendable.
I doubt that the hostages would have been directly targeted on Oct 7th but with the fog of war and a lack of intelligence about exactly what was going on there's a fair chance of hostages dieing from Israeli military action. Whether the actions of the Israeli military were justified or an overreaction will come out eventually.

 

[Zidane98]

That Hamas murdered the six hostages when they were cornered is sadly not a surprise and Israel would be well aware that this would more than likely happen. Hamas have only one reason to hold hostages and they won't surrender them for nothing. Bibi might not have directly stated that the Hannibal directive is policy but by persisting with wiping out Hamas in its entirety it certainly looks like the hostages are expendable.
I doubt that the hostages would have been directly targeted on Oct 7th but with the fog of war and a lack of intelligence about exactly what was going on there's a fair chance of hostages dieing from Israeli military action. Whether the actions of the Israeli military were justified or an overreaction will come out eventually.

All good points. Someone like Bibi is probably the worst person to be making the final call on hostage negotiations. Hs is a far right nutter and won't want to be seen as someone who gives in to Hamas demands.

You would also have to say at this point Hamas must be close to returning all hostages and calling a truce considering how much Hamas has been decimated by the ongoing war with Israel. That's a good enough reason for them to return all hostages and publicly stand down all military operations.

 

[sherb]

That Hamas murdered the six hostages when they were cornered is sadly not a surprise and Israel would be well aware that this would more than likely happen. Hamas have only one reason to hold hostages and they won't surrender them for nothing. Bibi might not have directly stated that the Hannibal directive is policy but by persisting with wiping out Hamas in its entirety it certainly looks like the hostages are expendable.
I doubt that the hostages would have been directly targeted on Oct 7th but with the fog of war and a lack of intelligence about exactly what was going on there's a fair chance of hostages dieing from Israeli military action. Whether the actions of the Israeli military were justified or an overreaction will come out eventually.

Absolutely they are expendable. Netanyahu is a monster who doesn't give a **** about them.

 

[Jazny]

Bibi might not have directly stated that the Hannibal directive is policy but by persisting with wiping out Hamas in its entirety it certainly looks like the hostages are expendable.

Have to weigh up the risk to hostages of continuing the war vs the risk Hamas's continued existence poses to the Israeli people.

What kind of message would it send that you can have virtual impunity for your terrorism as long as you take hostages? Capitulating to Hamas demands to secure the release of all hostages would only encourage more hostage taking in the future.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

It's just an estimated death toll from the event.

No, its not. As you alread posted, it's misidentification of remains. And that tells us a lot about what happened that day.

It seems you're unable or unwilling to apply the logic required.

This argument doesn't follow. The miscalculation of the early death count has nothing to do with how the ISF identified their targets.

Friendly fire happened to some extent on the day, we know that. It seems pretty isolated at this point based on all the available evidence. If you're arguing that this was widespread because "28 attack helicopters emptied their full complement of ammunition, and that pilots have stated on record they attacked anything that moved with little regard to the occupants" so the ISF killed a whole heap of civilians, then I am going to need some serious evidence, not just a totally understandable miscount of hard to identify bodies which says nothing about how they were identified as targets by the ISF when they were killed.

It doesnt matter how they were identified, I already told you that I dont believe they knowingly would have killed Israelis. But they clearly attacked targets they couldnt say were NOT Israeli. You're focusing on the wrong part again.

The miscount and misidentification is crucial because Hamas didnt kill themselves. 200 of the 1,400 casualties IDF claimed were killed by Hamas, were killed by the IDF! When the 1,400 figure was released, at least 200 of those were killed by the IDF, but they let everyone believe it was Hamas.

The numbers were only reduced because they were identified as Palestinian, not because of who or what killed them. That info will likely never see the light of day.

The miscount seems to have very little to do with the argument you're trying to make.

Of course it's possible some more friendly fire happened than what we know about, but as more investigations have been carried out from the time of those early death counts, it would be very obvious to investigators how many Israelis were killed by friendly fire at this point.

It would?

If it was as widespread as some would like to believe, we would have a lot of witness testimony already. Probably footage as some have pointed out, probably Hamas releasing damning footage of Israelis killing their own civilians seeing how Hamas did capture a lot of footage from the event, and I imagine their would be a number of whistleblowers going to Haaretz with some serious allegations. None of that seems to be the case as of now.

If any of this changes in the future, I will re-examine it then. Don't see why I should be jumping to wild conclusions right now.

Why exactly would Hamas be filming their own deaths? Is there footage of helicopter strikes on Hamas that I havent seen? Please, there must be links available. If there isnt, does that mean that never happened either?

Would IDF post found footage on the remains of Hamas members? No, I dont think so.

You're saying you think Israelis, finding themselves in the fighting somehow that day, should have been filming helicopters attacking targets?

And the absence of this footage therefore means helicopters never attacked anything?

These are ludicrous arguments you're making. (Yes I know, you havent said some of this directly, but if we extrapolate your arguments to their logical conclusions, this is where we end up. Let me know if you need me to explain the steps).

I'm not sure theres any point to this, your cognitive dissonance is off the charts.

 

[Jazny]

No, its not. As you alread posted, it's misidentification of remains. And that tells us a lot about what happened that day.

It seems you're unable or unwilling to apply the logic required.

It tells us that some bodies and vehicles were really badly burned.

Take this logic to the NYTs or even the Intercept. See if they will publish this amazing evidence you have of the body count changing therefore widespread friendly fire or something. Not even sure The Intercept would run that one.

It's a truly bizarre argument.

Why exactly would Hamas be filming their own deaths? Is there footage of helicopter strikes on Hamas that I havent seen? Please, there must be links available. If there isnt, does that mean that never happened either?

You think there were no survivors? Every single person that could have possibly taken footage, whether Israeli or Hamas, from any angle or distance was killed?

No footage doesn't = it didn't happen, but it seems surprising there wouldn't be at least some or even eye witnesses saying they saw Israeli choppers flying around blowing up hostage vehicles left and right.

What we have is almost nothing. A changed body count. Cool?

 

[jason_recliner]

Israeli air strikes leave craters in Gazan tent camp as dozens dead and injured​

At least 40 people have died after a tent camp in Khan Younis was struck by Israeli fire, leaving craters as deep as 9 metres, according to the Gazan civil emergency service.

The camp is in the designated humanitarian "safe zone" for Palestinians to evacuate to during Israel's invasion of the territory.

The Israeli military said it was targeting a Hamas command centre, with women and children among those injured.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-10/dozens-dead-in-gaza-tent-camp-un-convoy-released/104331106

 

[Zidane98]

The information is out there about the IDF helicopter videos if one actually wants to pursue the truth

https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231113-disproving-claims-that-israeli-helicopter-fired-on-their-own-civilians-at-nova-music-festiv

 

[faible]

Omer Bartov is an Israeli historian of genocide, particularly the Holocaust. I follow him on 'X'.

He's quite adamant that Gaza is now a site of genocide. The article below is something else, though. It is piece in which he talks about the disturbing increase in violent sentiment in Israel, apparent before October 7, which he links with his studies of Nazi Germany and the perpetrators of the Holocaust.

It's a long but excellent read.

As a former IDF soldier and historian of genocide, I was deeply disturbed by my recent visit to Israel

The long read: This summer, one of my lectures was protested by far-right students. Their rhetoric brought to mind some of the darkest moments of 20th-century history – and overlapped with mainstream Israeli views to a shocking degree

www.theguardian.com

Cross-posting from the other thread. Well worth reading.

 

[faible]

Israeli air strikes leave craters in Gazan tent camp as dozens dead and injured​

At least 40 people have died after a tent camp in Khan Younis was struck by Israeli fire, leaving craters as deep as 9 metres, according to the Gazan civil emergency service.

The camp is in the designated humanitarian "safe zone" for Palestinians to evacuate to during Israel's invasion of the territory.

The Israeli military said it was targeting a Hamas command centre, with women and children among those injured.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-10/dozens-dead-in-gaza-tent-camp-un-convoy-released/104331106

Another day of crimes against humanity.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

That Hamas murdered the six hostages when they were cornered is sadly not a surprise and Israel would be well aware that this would more than likely happen. Hamas have only one reason to hold hostages and they won't surrender them for nothing. Bibi might not have directly stated that the Hannibal directive is policy but by persisting with wiping out Hamas in its entirety it certainly looks like the hostages are expendable.
I doubt that the hostages would have been directly targeted on Oct 7th but with the fog of war and a lack of intelligence about exactly what was going on there's a fair chance of hostages dieing from Israeli military action. Whether the actions of the Israeli military were justified or an overreaction will come out eventually.

I doubt whether Hamas will ever release the hostages, even in the unlikely event of a truce. They will have to be rescued, by all means possible.

 

[DapperDon]

The Israeli military said it was targeting a Hamas command centre

I am so ****ing done with this reasoning for deaths of innocents especially children, if you support Israel Government right now you also have blood on your hands. USA and Australian Government should be ashamed they are so beholden to certain lobbies that they turn a blind eye to this slaughter.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

You would also have to say at this point Hamas must be close to returning all hostages and calling a truce considering how much Hamas has been decimated by the ongoing war with Israel. That's a good enough reason for them to return all hostages and publicly stand down all military operations.

As above. I just can’t see that happening. Unless they run out of fighters - 17,000 killed so far. It goes against everything Hamas stands for.

 

[faible]

Geez I'd love to hear Dogs explain what the IDF stands for after the repeated mass murders of women and children they've knowingly and deliberately committed.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

I am so ****ing done with this reasoning for deaths of innocents especially children, if you support Israel Government right now you also have blood on your hands. USA and Australian Government should be ashamed they are so beholden to certain lobbies that they turn a blind eye to this slaughter.

Aren’t you sick of Hamas launching attacks from crowded refugee camps, schools and hospitals yet?

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Geez I'd love to hear Dogs explain what the IDF stands for after the repeated mass murders of women and children they've knowingly and deliberately committed.

They stand for eliminating Jew-hating terror groups which constantly threaten to exterminate them.