Current WAR CRIMES Israel - Hamas Conflict

[Jazny]

So what is proportionate? When Hamas doesn’t respect international law (they are not a nation) but Israel should, I detect a handicap being placed on one side. They have to weigh up “maintaining good relations with their western allies” or surviving. Looks like it’s one or the other, not both, although they are trying.

This is what the anti-Israelis get wrong also. One side of a conflict disregarding or breaching IHL does not mean the other side can too. If you disagree, you would have to acknowledge there could be arguments Hamas could make to say October 7th was a justified response to Israeli breaches of IHL. The truth is this not how IHL works and October 7th is unjustifiable under law and morality, and so would any subsequent breaches of IHL commited by Israel.

In IHL, proportionality is with respect to achieving the military aims. So Israel can't just nuke Gaza in response to the October 7th terror attack. It can't indiscriminately carpet bomb Gaza. They can launch a ground and air war though like they have, but then all their action in bello have to accord with IHL principles of proportionality too which is generally determined on a case by case basis.

I think its okay if the international community does hold Israel to that standard, as those standards are there to protect the civilians caught up in war.

You want them to play nice, but how is that possible? Hamas won’t play nice, they won’t conduct their side of the war in an honourable way. Or they wouldn’t be using human shields, which no one wants to talk about. They wouldn’t be clinging to the hostages. They have directly and deliberately caused the deaths of 23,000 people, unsuspecting people trying to live from day to day, unaware (but maybe not) that their neighbour is going to launch an attack and could attract a response.
If they attacked from unpopulated areas they wouldn’t last five minutes, as they well know. Israel could wipe Rafah out overnight but the fact they haven’t is due to trying to pinpoint targets, as they did with the operation that eliminated 27 known and named terrorists in a command centre in a school. Hamas information ministry of course immediately issued inflated casualty numbers, another thing that’s never questioned.

It's not about playing nice. It's about protecting civilians as much as possible. If you don't think one side should be doing it because the other side isn't, then every single war forever will have all belligerents ignoring IHL, because they will be claiming rightly or wrongly that they are the victim and the other side is breaching IHL.

I don't like war, I didn't invent war, but if people are going to fight in wars, they should do so while respecting human life as much as possible.

Based on all the evidence available, I believe Israel does take many measure to prevent disproportionate attacks while still being able to achieve their military goals, but that doesn't mean they get it right all the time and their military never take action that breach of IHL. This would be very naive to think.

Hamas could stop this war today, by giving back the hostages. Why don’t they?

Because they are terrorists who have little regard for human life and suffering. That's why they are bad and probably shouldn't be allowed to continue to exist as an organisation.

 

[faible]

Has the IDF being officially classified as a terrorist organisation?

Hamas has been officially classified by the following entities & states as a terrorist organisation

View attachment 2107517
European Union, Japan & Argentina notable neutral states on this list.

Which states have officially designated IDF as a terrorist organisatiion?

Amazing that this is what you choose to fixate on.

If Hamas are a terrorist organisation, and the IDF has done worse, on a much wider scale, I'm comfortable with calling the IDF a terrorist organisation.

Of course, you're welcome to disagree if you think the IDF haven't done such bad things I suppose.

 

[Jazny]

If Hamas are a terrorist organisation, and the IDF has done worse

Based on what? How did you arrive at the opinion the IDF have done worse?

 

[Zidane98]

Amazing that this is what you choose to fixate on.

If Hamas are a terrorist organisation

"If". Lol. Hamas are an officially designated terrorist organisation. This isn't ifs buts or maybes about it.

, and the IDF has done worse, on a much wider scale,

An IDF whataboutism here. Color me surprised.

I'm comfortable with calling the IDF a terrorist organisation.

I'm comfortable with letting the experts on worldwide terrorism decide on this one. Like plenty of stuff you say is strong on rhetoric but lacking in actually having factual information to back it up.

Of course, you're welcome to disagree if you think the IDF haven't done such bad things I suppose.

One of the worst strawman attempts by yourself so far in this thread. Nobody has said the IDF haven't done bad things - despite your attempt to claim as such. Even the most ardent of pro Israel posters like Zev.

 

[faible]

Based on what? How did you arrive at the opinion the IDF have done worse?

Decades of military occupation, tens of thousands of dead children, crimes against humanity, likely genocide according to genocide scholars.

Hamas certainly aren't the good guys, but by any standard imaginable neither are the IDF.

 

[faible]

"If". Lol. Hamas are an officially designated terrorist organisation. This isn't ifs buts or maybes about it.

An IDF whataboutism here. Color me surprised.

I'm comfortable with letting the experts on worldwide terrorism decide on this one. Like plenty of stuff you say is strong on rhetoric but lacking in actually having factual information to back it up.

One of the worst strawman attempts by yourself so far in this thread. Nobody has said the IDF haven't done bad things - despite your attempt to claim as such. Even the most ardent of pro Israel posters like Zev.

Did you just cut a sentence in to 3 pieces in order to remove the meaning of that sentence to simply make something up?

Amazing.

 

[Zidane98]

Did you just cut a sentence in to 3 pieces in order to remove the meaning of that sentence to simply make something up?

Amazing.

Yet another attempt at deflection from answering the question that the discussion was about.


You claimed IDF are a terrorist organisation. Which states or entities have officially designated the IDF as a terrorist organisation to support your claim?

Bonus points for you actually answer a question in a discussion without meaningless deflections.

 

[Zidane98]

Based on what? How did you arrive at the opinion the IDF have done worse?

Notice when talking about Hamas he says "if" they are a terrorist organisation.

When talking about IDF he says they are a terrorist organisation.


Despite the fact that out of the two organisations only Hamas is officially classified as a terrorist organization.

 

[faible]

Yet another attempt at deflection from answering the question that the discussion was about.


You claimed IDF are a terrorist organisation. Which states or entities have officially designated the IDF as a terrorist organisation to support your claim?

Bonus points for you actually answer a question in a discussion without meaningless deflections.

I know you find words hard, but this was pretty clear:

I'm comfortable with calling the IDF a terrorist organisation.

Obviously your moral compass points you in a very different direction to mine.

 

[faible]

Notice when talking about Hamas he says "if" they are a terrorist organisation.

We've already addressed this:

Did you just cut a sentence in to 3 pieces in order to remove the meaning of that sentence to simply make something up?

 

[Zidane98]

I know you find words hard, but this was pretty clear:



Obviously your moral compass points you in a very different direction to mine.

The question wasn't whether you are comfortable or not. It was whether the IDF is classified as a terrorist organisation.


Any particular reason why you are refusing to answer this question?

 

[faible]

The question wasn't whether you are comfortable or not. It was whether the IDF is classified as a terrorist organisation.


Any particular reason why you are refusing to answer this question?

Once again, I already addressed this:

Amazing that this is what you choose to fixate on.

I'll also reiterate:

Obviously your moral compass points you in a very different direction to mine.

 

[Zidane98]

I know you find words hard, but this was pretty clear:



Obviously your moral compass points you in a very different direction to mine.

I am able to openly condemn officially designated terrorist organisations unlike yourself.


Instead of doing so you like to bring up whataboutisms about other organisations that do bad things which are not officially designated as terrorist organisations.


I'm very happy to not share your moral compass.

 

[faible]

I am able to openly condemn officially designated terrorist organisations unlike yourself.


Instead of doing so you like to bring up whataboutisms about other organisations that do bad things which are not officially designated as terrorist organisations.


I'm very happy to not share your moral compass.

**** me you're absolutely losing it aren't you. You simply cannot comprehend that both Hamas and the IDF are committing atrocities against civilians. You keep trying to throw out words like 'whataboutism' or 'strawman' without any understanding about how to actually apply those terms.

The IDF are committing war crimes, crimes against humanity, and violating IHL and IHRL. They're quite plausibly committing a genocide against the Palestinian people.

The absolute best you're able to bring to the discussion is 'well the IDF aren't officially a terrorist organisation'?

 

[Zidane98]

**** me you're absolutely losing it aren't you. You simply cannot comprehend that both Hamas and the IDF are committing atrocities against civilians. You keep trying to throw out words like 'whataboutism' or 'strawman' without any understanding about how to actually apply those terms.

The IDF are committing war crimes, crimes against humanity, and violating IHL and IHRL. They're quite plausibly committing a genocide against the Palestinian people.

The absolute best you're able to bring to the discussion is 'well the IDF aren't officially a terrorist organisation'?

You're absolutely cooked.

You do nothing more in this thread than constantly repeat Hamas rhetoric ad nauseam. Everything is about the IDF, any criticism of Hamas being a terrorist organisation is met with a repsonse of "but the IDF is worse" when the facts are that they did not start this war nor are an officially designated terrorist organisation like Hamas is.

The IDF are committing war crimes and violations of IHL / IHRL right now, of that there is no doubt and they should be punished.

What you leave out is the context of this which is the IDF is involved in a war right now between Hamas, Hezbollah & Iran. These actors openly and regularly call for destruction of the entire state of Israel and the annihlatioh of Jews. It says much about your views that you don't view these actions as genoicdal but do view Israel's actiions as genoicdal. This fits in with the rhetoric you regularly post on here.

 

[faible]

You're absolutely cooked.

You do nothing more in this thread than constantly repeat Hamas rhetoric ad nauseam. Everything is about the IDF, any criticism of Hamas being a terrorist organisation is met with a repsonse of "but the IDF is worse" when the facts are that they did not start this war nor are an officially designated terrorist organisation like Hamas is.

The IDF are committing war crimes and violations of IHL / IHRL right now, of that there is no doubt and they should be punished.

What you leave out is the context of this which is the IDF is involved in a war right now between Hamas, Hezbollah & Iran. These actors openly and regularly call for destruction of the entire state of Israel and the annihlatioh of Jews. It says much about your views that you don't view these actions as genoicdal but do view Israel's actiions as genoicdal. This fits in with the rhetoric you regularly post on here.

You're really making my day today.

What part of me repeatedly calling Hamas a terrorist organisation has been confusing for you.

The IDF have run a multi-decade military occupation of Palestinian territory. It started before Hamas. It will continue after Hamas.

You forgot the crimes against humanity, the IDF are also committing crimes against humanity as per the UN report. They've mass murdered thousands of Palestinian children.

So to clarify, you're saying that I don't view what Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran say (but don't actually do) as committing a genocide. But that I view what the IDF are actually doing to the Palestinian civilians of Gaza as committing a genocide. And you think this is problematic.

 

[Jazny]

So to clarify, you're saying that I don't view what Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran say (but don't actually do) as committing a genocide. But that I view what the IDF are actually doing to the Palestinian civilians of Gaza as committing a genocide. And you think this is problematic.

If you believe October 7th was a genocidal act with subsequent threats to carry out more, what should Israel's response have been to this threat?

 

[jason_recliner]

So to clarify, you're saying that I don't view what Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran say (but don't actually do) as committing a genocide. But that I view what the IDF are actually doing to the Palestinian civilians of Gaza as committing a genocide. And you think this is problematic.

This is a critical distinction. One party says they will kill large numbers of civilians, while one party has killed thousands of civilians and continues to kill more civilians. Idiots say idiotic things all the time. That cannot be viewed as seriously as violence and harm not threatened but actually inflicted.

 

[jason_recliner]

Israel says 'highly likely' its troops killed Ayşenur Ezgi Eygi 'unintentionally' as activist's family rejects claim​

The Israel Defense Forces said it is "highly likely" Ayşenur Ezgi Eygi "was hit indirectly and unintentionally by IDF fire which was not aimed at her".

The 26-year-old activist was protesting in a northern West Bank village on Friday last week when she was killed.

Ms Eygi's family have rejected the IDF findings and called for an independent inquiry into her death.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09...american-activist-ayşenur-ezgi-eygi/104336790

 

[Jazny]

This is a critical distinction. One party says they will kill large numbers of civilians, while one party has killed thousands of civilians and continues to kill more civilians. Idiots say idiotic things all the time. That cannot be viewed as seriously as violence and harm not threatened but actually inflicted.

So true! All Hamas have done is just make threats. Such a good point. Why do absolutely no sensible people in the world ever make this point? I think you're truly on to something

 

[jason_recliner]

So true! All Hamas have done is just make threats. Such a good point. Why do absolutely no sensible people in the world ever make this point? I think you're truly on to something

Don't be an idiot. Hamas has killed maybe 1,000 civilians. Israel has killed 20,000-30,000. It's not the same thing and it's not proportionate. Israel is inflicting FAR greater terror and atrocities than Hamas ever could. That's what I meant and you know it.

 

[sherb]

The Israeli mass murdering machine has now killed 40,000 Palestinians.

Pure evil.

Death toll in Gaza surpasses 40,000, Palestinian health officials say

The Palestinian Ministry of Health says a total 40,005 people have been killed and 92,401 injured since October 7, when Hamas-led militants attacked southern Israel, killing some 1,200 people — most of them civilians — and took roughly 250 hostages to Gaza, according to Israeli tallies.

www.abc.net.au

 

[sherb]

Israel says 'highly likely' its troops killed Ayşenur Ezgi Eygi 'unintentionally' as activist's family rejects claim​

The Israel Defense Forces said it is "highly likely" Ayşenur Ezgi Eygi "was hit indirectly and unintentionally by IDF fire which was not aimed at her".

The 26-year-old activist was protesting in a northern West Bank village on Friday last week when she was killed.

Ms Eygi's family have rejected the IDF findings and called for an independent inquiry into her death.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-11/israel-says-it-likely-killed-american-activist-ayşenur-ezgi-eygi/104336790

Unintentionally? Suuuuure...................

 

[SuperSub17]

The Israeli mass murdering machine has now killed 40,000 Palestinians.

Pure evil.

Death toll in Gaza surpasses 40,000, Palestinian health officials say

The Palestinian Ministry of Health says a total 40,005 people have been killed and 92,401 injured since October 7, when Hamas-led militants attacked southern Israel, killing some 1,200 people — most of them civilians — and took roughly 250 hostages to Gaza, according to Israeli tallies.

www.abc.net.au

And let’s be honest, it’s extremely likely that there are nowhere near enough resources remaining to accurately count the deaths, and the full effects of the bombings (disease, famine etc.) won’t have been felt yet.

The true death toll is likely to be many, many times that number.

 

[Jazny]

Don't be an idiot. Hamas has killed maybe 1,000 civilians. Israel has killed 20,000-30,000. It's not the same thing and it's not proportionate. Israel is inflicting FAR greater terror and atrocities than Hamas ever could. That's what I meant and you know it.

I don't know it, I read exactly what you said and it was ridiculous. You were downplaying the atrocities committed by Hamas and the threat they pose. You're new point is also ridiculous. What do you think proportionate means? It has nothing to do with comparing civilian casaulties on both sides.

Anyone who judges proportionality by comparing the amount of civilians killed by either side is using the word wrong.