Current WAR CRIMES Israel - Hamas - Hezbollah - Houthis

[faible]

Explain to me how I have removed them from the context. You can go and read the dialogue trees for yourself. This is a knee jerk defense from you. Just tell me how I am wrong.

The Palestinian people being bombed to oblivion are quite clearly less 'powerful and wealthy'.

If the ADF was running a military occupation of Aboriginal communities, bombing them, and cutting off humanitarian aid, we'd say the same thing.

You chose to make it into an antisemitic trope though, which is exactly why Netanyahu always tries to make Israel and Jew mean the same thing, because it deflects from criticism of the actions of a powerful nation state against a marginalised group by saying 'oh you're just antisemitic'.

As I said, it's something I'd expect from ZEV or Zidane. You've shown you're more capable of critical thinking than those two though.

Arguably, the traditional home of antisemitism - the far right - are most supportive of the actions of Israel right now, which the left are the most critical.

 

[Jazny]

Lol! It was this exact argument that Jews have been the victims by ZEV to which I was responding! That's too funny!!!

As to your dim and irrelevant attempt at a gotcha, about motivation, it's not about their motivation, it's what they (Israeli Jews) are doing. So no, you can piss off with trying to be clever (forget about that one) about me being anti-semitic. The other accused can no doubt point out the holes in all your whinging arguments.

I am happy to include the full dialogue tree. ZEV is talking about Jews fighting to stay alive over generations due to persecution. You said that in response. It was a poor comment from you. I stand by the criticism. If you backed away from the comment or clarified how in your mind saying "Jews use their history of persecution as an excuse to bully the less wealthy and powerful and commit war crimes", I would appreciate it.

If you claim it's not an antisemitic statement, I couldn't disagree harder. I don't think you are necessarily an antisemite, but this kind of statement should be called out.

OT, but what do you think makes some people form anti-semitic views?

The same way people form racist opinions of any group. If they are mostly ignorant of that group, they might form stereotypes based on the things they see on TV. And grifters peddle misinformation about the group to radicalise people against them.

I think a lot of these views in the case of this thread are from people not even realising how the things they are saying are antisemitic. It would be nice when pointed out though if people gave some acknowledgement instead of being defensive.

 

[DapperDon]

It took me a while to explain the antisemitism built into this one, but eventually Lunchlady before he drifted into a total bad faith actor in this thread did admit that this claim was about Jews.

This is arguing Jews use their history of persecution as an excuse to bully the less "powerful and wealthy". Completely antisemetic on multiple levels. Throw in an irrelevant antisemitic trope about wealth for good measure. Feel free to go back and read the dialogue tree on this one if you don't think its antisemitic.

Obsession with Jewish DNA. What has DNA got to do with a person's right to exist in a place? Racist antisemetic idea that Jews don't belong in Israel because of their DNA.

Most Jews in Israel have middle eastern origins, for what it's worth.

Again, obsession with Israeli DNA. As though the DNA of a person makes a difference as to where they belong. Imagine calling a second generation Australian whose parents migrated from Sudan, for example, "the Sudanese". Like he doesn't belong here or he is less Australian.

A racist conspiracy theory with not a shred of evidence that Ashkenazi Jews stole Yemini babies. I wouldn't blame someone for being conned by misinformation, but standing by the claim with not a shred of evidence is truly bizarre and suggests a level of bias against the group.
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If the only evidence of antisemitic thought you will accept is someone saying "I HATE JEWS!!!!" you are probably not going to find it here. Overt racism isn't the only form of racism. When Pauline Hanson says Halal money goes towards terrorism, most people on the planet who aren't racist will correctly recognise the racism inherent in the statement even though she is not saying "HEY EVERYONE! I HATE MUSLIMS". But when it comes to Jews, people who normally recognise this stuff suddenly instead find themselves agreeing with the racism.

Ghost Patrol claiming that money from Jewish lobby groups funds terrorism without a shred of evidence didn't have most people in the thread rightly calling out the antisemitism, instead they agree with him. Why? Probably because, like Pauline Hanson voters, they actually agree with the racist statement due to an internal bias against the group - in this case Jews.

Don't believe me? Do a thought experiment, imagine some right-winger comes in here grifting about Australian Halal money funding terrorism. You think you would push back on it? Then why wouldn't you with GP's claim? Why was I the only one? If your answer is 'because GP is right', then show me the evidence of this ever happening. If you have none, and just automatically believe the claim without evidence, it shows a level of antisemitic bias.

This doesn't mean all the above people hate Jewish people or are personally racist. I can't read their minds. But what they and others have said, and this is only a small example, does hint at a level of antisemitic bias or belief in antisemitic narratives.

As with Jason, you have taken a snippet of a conversation and tried to make it into something it never was.

The argument I was saying at the time, and still stand by now was that the starting of Israel as a nation was completely cruel to those already living the land that was taken from them. Thrown aside because some wealthy Europeans had an idea of a Jewish state. It's never been about allowing them to relocate to the land, just how it was done. Do I think it should change now? No, I don't. I do wish however they would stop killing their neighbours children in the name of defence.

Of course you didn't understand this, as in your eyes the brown people don't count as people and don't need the land they were living in. Which is why you never condenm settlers or the IDF.

 

[treeebeard]

How powerful is the Israel lobby here and is this really happening? Genuine question.

Absolutely it is https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...ia-targeted-three-journalists-new-book-claims

https://www.trtworld.com/opinion/the-insidious-influence-of-the-israel-lobby-on-australia-s-mediascape-50519

Head in sand kind of stuff if you don't think they have undue influence over media and government.

 

[treeebeard]

If that was the case, why do 90% of journalists still have a job?

I don't recall latouf being fired for her ability. I though a group of lobbyists took umbrage to her personal opinions and wanted her silenced. Not sure if the case has gone to court yet.

 

[Jazny]

The Palestinian people being bombed to oblivion are quite clearly less 'powerful and wealthy'.

To categorize JEWS (not Israel) as using their history of persecution as an excuse to bully the less wealthy and powerful is clearly an antisemitic statement. If he wanted to back away from it, I would accept it. I gave him a chance. He even confirmed later that he was talking about Jews despite everyone trying to defend him for some reason. Go back and read the full tree.



Come on please faible. You have to see this for what it is, don't play sides.

What has their power and wealth got to do with the conflict? Israel is also bombing Iran which is not that much less wealthy overall than Israel. This has nothing to do with Jews bullying the less wealthy lol, a truly bizarre way to categorize what's happening. The conflict has more to do with land, security and ideology.

 

[treeebeard]

It took me a while to explain the antisemitism built into this one, but eventually Lunchlady before he drifted into a total bad faith actor in this thread did admit that this claim was about Jews.

This is arguing Jews use their history of persecution as an excuse to bully the less "powerful and wealthy". Completely antisemetic on multiple levels. Throw in an irrelevant antisemitic trope about wealth for good measure. Feel free to go back and read the dialogue tree on this one if you don't think its antisemitic.

Obsession with Jewish DNA. What has DNA got to do with a person's right to exist in a place? Racist antisemetic idea that Jews don't belong in Israel because of their DNA.

Most Jews in Israel have middle eastern origins, for what it's worth.

Again, obsession with Israeli DNA. As though the DNA of a person makes a difference as to where they belong. Imagine calling a second generation Australian whose parents migrated from Sudan, for example, "the Sudanese". Like he doesn't belong here or he is less Australian.

A racist conspiracy theory with not a shred of evidence that Ashkenazi Jews stole Yemini babies. I wouldn't blame someone for being conned by misinformation, but standing by the claim with not a shred of evidence is truly bizarre and suggests a level of bias against the group.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the only evidence of antisemitic thought you will accept is someone saying "I HATE JEWS!!!!" you are probably not going to find it here. Overt racism isn't the only form of racism. When Pauline Hanson says Halal money goes towards terrorism, most people on the planet who aren't racist will correctly recognise the racism inherent in the statement even though she is not saying "HEY EVERYONE! I HATE MUSLIMS". But when it comes to Jews, people who normally recognise this stuff suddenly instead find themselves agreeing with the racism.

Ghost Patrol claiming that money from Jewish lobby groups funds terrorism without a shred of evidence didn't have most people in the thread rightly calling out the antisemitism, instead they agree with him. Why? Probably because, like Pauline Hanson voters, they actually agree with the racist statement due to an internal bias against the group - in this case Jews.

Don't believe me? Do a thought experiment, imagine some right-winger comes in here grifting about Australian Halal money funding terrorism. You think you would push back on it? Then why wouldn't you with GP's claim? Why was I the only one? If your answer is 'because GP is right', then show me the evidence of this ever happening. If you have none, and just automatically believe the claim without evidence, it shows a level of antisemitic bias.

This doesn't mean all the above people hate Jewish people or are personally racist. I can't read their minds. But what they and others have said, and this is only a small example, does hint at a level of antisemitic bias or belief in antisemitic narratives.

My comment was relevant to the context you have left out. A common habit of yours?

 

[BFew]

Are we talking about the Lebanese crime family Ibrahim here?

Yes. Albeit I don't think John (Kyle Sandilands mate) has ever been convicted of anything much (if anything).

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I don't recall latouf being fired for her ability. I though a group of lobbyists took umbrage to her personal opinions and wanted her silenced. Not sure if the case has gone to court yet.

She was fired by the ABC for posting a Human Rights Watch article about Israel using starvation as a tool of war. It was an article which ABC had also reported on earlier the same day....

Users on a zionist/pro-Israel whatsapp group were found to have been pressuring ABC management to fire her.

Antoinette Lattouf was sacked by ABC, Fair Work Commission finds

Decision finds in favour of journalist who was sacked from casual presenting role on Sydney radio program

www.theguardian.com

 

[leon123]

To categorize JEWS (not Israel) as using their history of persecution as an excuse to bully the less wealthy and powerful is clearly an antisemitic statement. If he wanted to back away from it, I would accept it. I gave him a chance. He even confirmed later that he was talking about Jews despite everyone trying to defend him for some reason. Go back and read the full tree.

View attachment 2153148

Come on please faible. You have to see this for what it is, don't play sides.

What has their power and wealth got to do with the conflict? Israel is also bombing Iran which is not that much less wealthy overall than Israel. This has nothing to do with Jews bullying the less wealthy lol, a truly bizarre way to categorize what's happening. The conflict has more to do with land, security and ideology.

Just a fact here, a basic measure to look at when comparing relative wealth is GDP per capita. Israel is around $55k per person, Iran is around $6k - there is a big wealth divide. Using total GDP is a highly misleading figure

 

[jason_recliner]

I am happy to include the full dialogue tree. ZEV is talking about Jews fighting to stay alive over generations due to persecution. You said that in response. It was a poor comment from you. I stand by the criticism. If you backed away from the comment or clarified how in your mind saying "Jews use their history of persecution as an excuse to bully the less wealthy and powerful and commit war crimes", I would appreciate it.

If you claim it's not an antisemitic statement, I couldn't disagree harder. I don't think you are necessarily an antisemite, but this kind of statement should be called out.
View attachment 2153147

The same way people form racist opinions of any group. If they are mostly ignorant of that group, they might form stereotypes based on the things they see on TV. And grifters peddle misinformation about the group to radicalise people against them.

I think a lot of these views in the case of this thread are from people not even realising how the things they are saying are antisemitic. It would be nice when pointed out though if people gave some acknowledgement instead of being defensive.

There's two aspects to my statement/discussion. Jews in general - many I have read/seen/heard at least - refer to their history of struggle and fighting noticeably more often than other people, as though they are the only people whose ancestors struggled and fought. My relatives were oppressed and had to leave their country, same as the person I married, but I don't make a big deal out of it - it's common amongst many (most?) of our ancestors. The second is that (Israeli) Jews (are currently using that same) history of persecution as an excuse to bully the less wealthy and powerful and commit war crimes. Changed the sections in brackets to appease you as you were unable to follow otherwise - that's me backing away from my original statement, as requested.

 

[Kurve]

Absolutely it is https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...ia-targeted-three-journalists-new-book-claims

https://www.trtworld.com/opinion/the-insidious-influence-of-the-israel-lobby-on-australia-s-mediascape-50519

Head in sand kind of stuff if you don't think they have undue influence over media and government.

Please, read it again.

According to the article, most attempts at interfering with journalists work, who were based in Israel, by the pro-Israel lobby were rebuffed.

This doesn't demonstrate undue influence over the media. To allege undue influence over our government, you'd have to accept that the Israel lobby is the dominant party over our democratically elected political representatives.

 

[jason_recliner]

Please, read it again.

According to the article, most attempts at interfering with journalists work, who were based in Israel, by the pro-Israel lobby were rebuffed.

This doesn't demonstrate undue influence over the media. To allege undue influence over our government, you'd have to accept that the Israel lobby is the dominant party over our democratically elected political representatives.

No, that's not correct. Undue influence can be influence that is not in the interests of Australia and Australians. It can also be influence that is excessive without being dominant. It can also be influence excessively targeting one or more aspects of government/policy with outcomes negative/detrimental to the majority of Australians.

 

[Jazny]

Just a fact here, a basic measure to look at when comparing relative wealth is GDP per capita. Israel is around $55k per person, Iran is around $6k - there is a big wealth divide. Using total GDP is a highly misleading figure

I would say the best indication with respect to the relevance of wealth to the conflict is defense spending, which Iran ranks highly though how highly depends on who is counting and the methods they use. Nevertheless, its hard to argue wealth disparity has much to do with the reasons why Israel is choosing to bomb the places they are.

 

[jason_recliner]

its hard to argue wealth disparity has much to do with the reasons why Israel is choosing to bomb the places they are.

Nobody is arguing this.

 

[leon123]

I would say the best indication with respect to the relevance of wealth to the conflict is defense spending, which Iran ranks highly though how highly depends on who is counting and the methods they use. Nevertheless, its hard to argue wealth disparity has much to do with the reasons why Israel is choosing to bomb the places they are.

Probably, dont know, have no opinion. I didnt offer one either

I just highlighted a significant error that you stated.

 

[Jazny]

Probably, dont know, have no opinion. I didnt offer one either

I just highlighted a significant error that you stated.

I don't know what I said is an error. It is true in terms of their overall wealth, but also I am not an economist and beyond looking at GDP and Military Spending, I don't know what other relevant factors might be at play. That doesn't mean that the average Iranian has as much spending power as the average Israeli, but both country's ability to fund war seems at least somewhat similar. Though Israel does seem to have a significant edge.

 

[Jazny]

Nobody is arguing this.

Alright we can drop it then.

 

[jason_recliner]

I don't know what I said is an error. It is true in terms of their overall wealth, but also I am not an economist and beyond looking at GDP and Military Spending, I don't know what other relevant factors might be at play. That doesn't mean that the average Iranian has as much spending power as the average Israeli, but both country's ability to fund war seems at least somewhat similar. Though Israel does seem to have a significant edge.

Israel US$15-30bn
Iran US$1bn

Depends how you define "somewhat similar".

 

[Kurve]

No, that's not correct. Undue influence can be influence that is not in the interests of Australia and Australians. It can also be influence that is excessive without being dominant. It can also be influence excessively targeting one or more aspects of government/policy with outcomes negative/detrimental to the majority of Australians.

You're changing the accepted meaning of what undue influence is to fit in with your argument.

First you wanted Israel ostracized like North Korea and when I asked what you thought might happen if we did that, you ignored the question. Probably because you know what would happen.

Then you alleged that: The majority of Australians don't have lobby groups and wield undue influence over the media.

The majority gets their way every election, this is democracy.

Treebeard's link didn't go far in to proving this undue influence, it actually went the other way.

 

[DapperDon]

To categorize JEWS (not Israel) as using their history of persecution as an excuse to bully the less wealthy and powerful is clearly an antisemitic statement. If he wanted to back away from it, I would accept it. I gave him a chance. He even confirmed later that he was talking about Jews despite everyone trying to defend him for some reason. Go back and read the full tree.

View attachment 2153148

Come on please faible. You have to see this for what it is, don't play sides.

What has their power and wealth got to do with the conflict? Israel is also bombing Iran which is not that much less wealthy overall than Israel. This has nothing to do with Jews bullying the less wealthy lol, a truly bizarre way to categorize what's happening. The conflict has more to do with land, security and ideology.

Would you think there is any reason for why The US worry about them bombing Iran but not too fussed with their bombing of Gaza?

Nothing to do with power or wealth? lol indeed

 

[Jazny]

Israel US$15-30bn
Iran US$1bn

Depends how you define "somewhat similar".

Where did you get this figure? I have seen Iran ranked as high as top 14 for military spending in the world according to the Stockholm Institute for Peace Research in 2022. But they also fluctuate depending on who is compiling it and how. I have never seen a figure anywhere near as low as 1bn, though thats close to what they spend on proxies every year.

Nothing to do with power or wealth? lol indeed

Seems at least someone is arguing that jason_recliner

 

[DapperDon]

Where did you get this figure? I have seen Iran ranked as high as top 14 for military spending in the world according to the Stockholm Institute for Peace Research in 2022. But they also fluctuate depending on who is compiling it and how. I have never seen a figure anywhere near as low as 1bn, though thats close to what they spend on proxies every year.

Seems at least someone is arguing that jason_recliner

Ok remove wealth if you want to get petty

Always hard to get a proper answer from you isn't?

 

[jason_recliner]

You're changing the accepted meaning of what undue influence is to fit in with your argument.

First you wanted Israel ostracized like North Korea and when I asked what you thought might happen if we did that, you ignored the question. Probably because you know what would happen.

Then you alleged that: The majority of Australians don't have lobby groups and wield undue influence over the media.

The majority gets their way every election, this is democracy.

Treebeard's link didn't go far in to proving this undue influence, it actually went the other way.

You're confounding what is meant in, say, civil litigation with what is meant in the democratic process.

I think if we ostracised Israel we would stop trading military goods and services with them and stop abstaining/voting no on UN votes. That's what I'd like to see.

You can't possibly believe the Government act in the interests of the majority after they are voted for in every election (East Arm Wharf?). Or that undue influence on the media doesn't influence people to vote other than they might if they were properly informed (mineral resources rent tax anybody? Literally the links posted throughout this thread?).

 

[Jazny]

Ok remove wealth if you want to get petty

Always hard to get a proper answer from you isn't?

You just don't like the answers I give.