Current WAR CRIMES Israel - Hamas - Hizbullah - Houthis

[CM86]

I don't know if Hannibal was ordered or not but personally, if my son had been abducted and was in the back of a truck heading in to Gaza and overwhelmed by militants, I'd shoot and blow it off the road. He'd expect it.

Golden rule most of us who hang out on the crime board know, is to never let them take you to another location.

It's the assumption that Israeli deaths from the IDF = Israel bad that is making most people just react instead of think.

If there were some deaths, deliberate or not, from the IDF that prevented Israelis from being kidnapped and slowly tortured to death, is that necessarily a bad thing?

Is it possible one of the reasons Israel avoids total denial, because they know we're not able to have a nuanced discussion around this in the current climate?


Where might we be right now, if Hamas wasn't able to take any hostages alive?

I'd rather be killed than taken.

Israeli forces accused of killing their own citizens under the 'Hannibal Directive' during October 7 chaos

 

[CM86]

There's potentially new information coming through that 80% of the deaths in Gaza are Hamas militants and family, so if that's true, then Hamas should be almost done in there. That's also significant for any future proceedings against Israel through the international courts.

How much work does the word 'family' do there for the 80% number?

Children, super extended family, extended family of in laws etc?

 

[jason_recliner]

It's the assumption that Israeli deaths from the IDF = Israel bad that is making most people just react instead of think.

If there were some deaths, deliberate or not, from the IDF that prevented Israelis from being kidnapped and slowly tortured to death, is that necessarily a bad thing?

Is it possible one of the reasons Israel avoids total denial, because they know we're not able to have a nuanced discussion around this in the current climate?


Where might we be right now, if Hamas wasn't able to take any hostages alive?

I'd rather be killed than taken.

Israeli forces accused of killing their own citizens under the 'Hannibal Directive' during October 7 chaos

I'll take any chance to live, no matter how slim.

 

[CM86]

This will obviously need verification but if it were to be true it would be pretty clear evidence that Israel is targeting Hamas, not civilians in Gaza.

No, of course they're targeting Hamas.


The people on the 'side' of Israel saying it's 'accidents' or 'bad luck' etc are doing Israel no favours.
They are killing a massive number of civilians through their actions. Be them attacks or in regards to resources and services.

But it isn't just lazy and indiscriminate.

Anyone who could possibly support Israel while thinking the IDF is pretty casual with targeting etc, just hates Palestinians in general.

 

[CM86]

I'll take any chance to live, no matter how slim.

That sounds good, and would be a great line in a movie.

But in reality if you were being taken somewhere to be tortured/r*ped to death over months, you'd pick any escape you could.

 

[jason_recliner]

That sounds good, and would be a great line in a movie.

But in reality if you were being taken somewhere to be tortured/r*ped to death over months, you'd pick any escape you could.

Nup, no way. Too much to live for. Any chance to keep living is worth fighting for IMO.

They released 100+ hostages. Imagine being one of them. Or imagine if one of them had been shot dead on the way back. No matter how dark today, you never know what opportunities tomorrow will bring.

 

[CM86]

Nup, no way. Too much to live for. Any chance to keep living is worth fighting for IMO.

They released 100+ hostages. Imagine being one of them. Or imagine if one of them had been shot dead on the way back. No matter how dark today, you never know what opportunities tomorrow will bring.

The you don't really understand the atrocities from either 'side' of this.

Or maybe I don't and I should just avoid discussing this topic because I'm sick of the partisanship from both 'sides'. When there is so much more depth to this topic that seems to be overlooked due to the extreme outcomes.

 

[Zidane98]

No, of course they're targeting Hamas.


The people on the 'side' of Israel saying it's 'accidents' or 'bad luck' etc are doing Israel no favours.
They are killing a massive number of civilians through their actions. Be them attacks or in regards to resources and services.

But it isn't just lazy and indiscriminate.

Anyone who could possibly support Israel while thinking the IDF is pretty casual with targeting etc, just hates Palestinians in general.

Definitely, Israel need to be held to account for war crimes, breaches of IHL.

 

[Jazny]

It's the assumption that Israeli deaths from the IDF = Israel bad that is making most people just react instead of think.

No, it's the lack of any actual evidence and the reason its being touted is to excuse Hamas's killing spree.

There are two confirmed cases of the IDF friendly fire against an Israeli civilian in the whole event. This happened during the hostage taking from Nir Oz and shrapnel from a tank round that richocheted in a house in Be'eri.

This is how the witness described the incident from Nir Oz hostages:

"About 150 meters later, a tuktuk vehicle pulling an open cart stopped beside us. In the cart there were five people, all from the kibbutz. My good friend was there with three little girls, two of them only 3 years old; they were crying, looking lost.

They continued to drive with us in the back, toward Gaza, when an IDF helicopter appeared above us. At some point the helicopter shot at the terrorists, the driver and the others. There was screaming in the tuktuk.

All the terrorists were dead and we were alive, except for one for one of the women with us. She had died in the arms of her daughter, who had come to the kibbutz to visit and now would not leave her mother. I took one of the little girls in my arms, another friend took a second little girl and we...."

This was an excellent targeted attack from the IDF helicopter crew. Unfortunately one civilian was killed by friendly fire, but this happens in hostage situations. See Lindt Cafe in Australia. The helicopter crew successfully targeted the terrorists and rescued several hostages in the process.

The UN investigated claims of hannibal being used against civilians and they found 14 cases they thought could possibly be attributed to the Hannibal directive on October 7th. One was the incident above, the other 13 of those cases all came from tank fire in a house in Be'eri. But this doesn't seem to be the case that 13 of those people died from tank shelling. Two separate investigations were conducted on this case, one from the IDF found that 12 of the the these 13 people were killed by small arms fire. The other was killed by shrapnel from what the IDF believe was a result of the tank firing and the shell bouncing off the ground and striking a doorway leading to shrapnel killing a 68 year old hostage. The forensic archeologist from the antiquities authority came to a similar conclusion. The IDF investigation cleared the tank commander of any wrong doing and said he acted with professionalism.

And that's it. That is the entire sum of the confirmed cases of friendly fire against civilians on October 7th.

Now you guys can argue and cry all day that this IDF investigation and the separate forensic investigation are wrong, but what's your evidence? Where's any evidence?

Seems friendly fire was fairly rare on October 7th. It happened, and it might have happened more than what we know of, but there is no evidence of the IDF widespread killing their own civilians as of now. Could this change in the future? Yes it's possible, friendly fire understandably happens and the day was chaotic, but as of now there is no reason to believe it will change that much. There are two confirmed cases as of now and both those cases were resulting from what seems to be the IDF acting with care and professionalism. That's it.

 

[CM86]

Definitely, Israel need to be held to account for war crimes, breaches of IHL.

I'm not a centrist in this. I'm very much on the pro-Palestinian 'side'.


Which is why I spend a lot of time trying to read and understand from both sides.

For example, I'm at the point where I don't agree that it should be called an attempted/ongoing genocide, or a genocide in general.
But, I don't object to other people calling it that, or feeling that it is. Because I can understand that perspective as I previously held it.

But also now I'm possibly just fence sitting every issue on this with a 'Until we have all the information' position. Which is also a bullshit position for me to hold.


I just can't get an image I saw out of my head, of man running through debris holding in his arms a screaming child whose limbs were all missing or dangling from their tiny, destroyed body.

 

[treeebeard]

From one of the articles posted by Festerz

DORON KADOSH is the military affairs correspondent at Israel’s Army Radio

At around 11am to 12pm, there came a third wave … that weren’t terrorists who came to loot, who came to kill, who came to kidnap. At the time, I’m sitting in the studio all day, where there really is a huge amount of chaos and I cannot believe that I am reporting what I am reporting.

This is where I struggle with the concept of “innocent” civilian deaths. No doubt young children are the very innocent, but non-terrorists - civilians - looting (this isn’t the first I’ve read about this), kidnapping, lining the streets of Gaza cheering over and spitting on the broken bodies being paraded in the back of utes, keeping hostages in their homes - where is the innocence? The mothers/families praising their sons for killing Jews and being rewarded with a “martyr’s pension” if the men/boys are killed.

Recent polls have revealed that support for Hamas in Gaza is as strong as ever.

Eliminating Hamas and their malignant influence is a must if there is to be any sort of future for Gaza.

Prior to the genocide, there was very little support for Hamas. Can't imagine why it's so strong now

 

[BFew]

The whole war is unacceptable.

The whole war would probably not have happened (or have been fast-forwarded in some ways, without the Oct 7, 2023 massacre, had Israel taken pre-emptive action years ago against both Iran, Iran's Proxies, and Hamas.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/the-wall-street-journal/one-year-after-oct-7-israel-sees-a-future-at-war/news-story/93de6cda073b6a5a045b57144c103655

'One year after Octoober 7, Israel sees a future at war
...
For years, the military aimed to provide long stretches of peace that were only momentarily punctured by short conflicts with Palestinian militants. There were occasional military manoeuvres aimed at degrading the axis, but they were never severe enough to welcome retaliation. A country founded on austerity, Israel saw its gross domestic product soar. Its bustling commercial capital, Tel Aviv, became indistinguishable from any other affluent Mediterranean city.

Much of Israel’s security establishment now believes these decades lay the groundwork for the deadly Oct. 7 attack from Hamas’s Gaza stronghold that killed 1,200 people and took another 250 hostage. Israel can no longer allow its enemies the time and space to build up arsenals that can pose an existential threat, many have come to believe.

“Pre-emptive wars will be in the future part of the Israeli tool kit,” said Yaakov Amidror, a former Israeli national security adviser.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

I wouldn't trust any polls coming out of Gaza right now, when was the last one done btw?

There's potentially new information coming through that 80% of the deaths in Gaza are Hamas militants and family, so if that's true, then Hamas should be almost done in there. That's also significant for any future proceedings against Israel through the international courts.

I'll wait before posting, to see if any of our own verified news source pick this up.

I can't believe you give that claim enough credence to even post it. Amazing naivety.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Exactly this. New information coming out of Gaza is up to 80% of all casualties in Gaza are either Hamas operatives or those directly linked and related to them.

This will obviously need verification but if it were to be true it would be pretty clear evidence that Israel is targeting Hamas, not civilians in Gaza.

Absolute lunacy.

Imagining if this is true - even in WW2 the Allies didn't extrajudicially kill every card carrying member of the Nazi party, and wipe out their ****ing families!

Believing this hogwash is one thing - thinking it's acceptable is actually more disturbing.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

The whole war would probably not have happened (or have been fast-forwarded in some ways, without the Oct 7, 2023 massacre, had Israel taken pre-emptive action years ago against both Iran, Iran's Proxies, and Hamas.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/the-wall-street-journal/one-year-after-oct-7-israel-sees-a-future-at-war/news-story/93de6cda073b6a5a045b57144c103655

'One year after Octoober 7, Israel sees a future at war
...
For years, the military aimed to provide long stretches of peace that were only momentarily punctured by short conflicts with Palestinian militants. There were occasional military manoeuvres aimed at degrading the axis, but they were never severe enough to welcome retaliation. A country founded on austerity, Israel saw its gross domestic product soar. Its bustling commercial capital, Tel Aviv, became indistinguishable from any other affluent Mediterranean city.

Much of Israel’s security establishment now believes these decades lay the groundwork for the deadly Oct. 7 attack from Hamas’s Gaza stronghold that killed 1,200 people and took another 250 hostage. Israel can no longer allow its enemies the time and space to build up arsenals that can pose an existential threat, many have come to believe.

“Pre-emptive wars will be in the future part of the Israeli tool kit,” said Yaakov Amidror, a former Israeli national security adviser.

Sounds like you're advocating for more Israeli aggression? As if would be some sort of new invention

Pre-emptive wars have regularly been Israels method.

Did you miss the 2008 Israeli invasion of Gaza, where they killed more than 1,000 Palestinians and destroyed schools, hospitals and homes?

Or the 2014 invasion of Gaza? 2,250 Palestinians killed this time, mostly civilians. 25% of Gaza City homes were destroyed, 500,000 people displaced. Committed their own Oct 7 twice over 15 years ago, and no one cared.

Of course they also occupied the Gaza Strip in 1956 when they attacked Egypt. Struck Egypt again pre-emptively in 1967.

Don't forget they pre-emptively massacred and cleansed Palestinians from their villages and homes ahead of the Israeli declaration of independence.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

I'd rather be killed than taken.

That sounds good, and would be a great line in a movie.

But in reality if you were being taken somewhere to be tortured/r*ped to death over months, you'd pick any escape you could.

Sde Teiman is the only place where people are being r*ped to death. I imagine the families of the hostages who were released in good health are glad they weren't suicidal.

 

[CM86]

I can't believe you give that claim enough credence to even post it. Amazing naivety.

There's more than enough caveats in there to point out that it's more in respect to the concept of Hamas being eliminated, rather than pushing some kind of IDF infallibility.

 

[CM86]

I imagine the families of the hostages who were released in good health are glad they weren't suicidal.

OK, fair. That could be impacting my perspective on this a lot more than I realise.

But I was talking more in terms of foresight at the time, than the hindsight of now.

I believe there were Israeli civilians and military killed in Israel by the IDF. I believe there were deliberate murders of Israeli civilians and military by the IDF on Oct 7th.
I'm not saying it excuses any actions of Hamas.

It might have been done with the view of a quick death instead some expected cruel and barbaric slow death. And there is an argument that can be made to support that kind decision.
But if it's admitted to, it will only fuel the idea that this was a conspiracy to justify the 'genocide'. And an argument can be made for that.

 

[CM86]

Absolute lunacy.

Imagining if this is true - even in WW2 the Allies didn't extrajudicially kill every card carrying member of the Nazi party, and wipe out their ****ing families!

Believing this hogwash is one thing - thinking it's acceptable is actually more disturbing.

If a Palestinian loses their family over the last year from the attacks, and decide to 'join Hamas' is it now retroactive?
Are their deaths now justified as family of a Hamas militant?


It's such a strange statement to make.
Especially as we know and have been told for a long time that Hamas use civilians as shields. Are they now saying that the 'human shields' are actually just that persons family living with them at home?