We need to talk about Jonathan Brown

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Requiem said:
Personally I didn't get to watch the game but hasn't Rutten traditionally had Brown's measure on a very consistent basis?

Surely this talk isn't warranted till after round 5-6?
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Yeah Brown I think barely averages a goal against the Crows.
 

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2 games in a row where Redden and Rich had no real impact in the middle. Personally I don't think Brown is the issue. While he may not be as good as he used to in terms of dragging the team through for the win, he still is a very strong mark overhead and on the lead and if it is a decent kick (which our midfield is currently stuggling to do), Brown is still certainly strong enough to take a contested grab or at least bring it to ground. I think everyone needs to chill out over Brown and decide at the end of the season. Stress less on Brown and stress more on our misfiring midfield. Rich (16 disposals) Redden (15 disposals) and Zorko (13 disposals) their numbers aren't good enough.
 
Dom PC said:
2 games in a row where Redden and Rich had no real impact in the middle. Personally I don't think Brown is the issue. While he may not be as good as he used to in terms of dragging the team through for the win, he still is a very strong mark overhead and on the lead and if it is a decent kick (which our midfield is currently stuggling to do), Brown is still certainly strong enough to take a contested grab or at least bring it to ground. I think everyone needs to chill out over Brown and decide at the end of the season. Stress less on Brown and stress more on our misfiring midfield. Rich (16 disposals) Redden (15 disposals) and Zorko (13 disposals) there numbers aren't good enough.
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Exactly, two games in and people are already manning the panic stations, glad most Bigfooty posters aren't in the coach's box.

P.S. it's not like Browny hasn't had a few quite games in a row before, I still think he has plenty to offer and by round 10 people will forget these early rounds.
 
C'mon guys, key forwards have "slumps" regularly. It's not like its anything new, as it relies so much on other variables - full back/defense structure, midfield delivery, other talls running decoy/drawing defenders away, dry weather/wet weather (slippery conditions or not), and so on. It's always feast or famine with focal key forwards... a few quiet games then BOOM, a bag of goals. Oh wait, Brown got a bag in the NAB Cup final a couple weeks ago didn't he? :p

IF Brown was a midfielder and wasn't getting any possies, disposals or contested ball week-in, week-out, THEN I'd be ringing the panic stations. And as another poster said, it's not like anybody else is banging down the door to take his spot.

I'd be inclined to rest him periodically during the season though, both to keep him going as long as possible, and to get some runs for some of the other fwds, as we still are looking for his next protege...
 
In a few weeks time if nothings changed then this thread is spot on but I've just watched two games where there was hardly any decent inside 50's. Give him a chance. All of our forwards are looking below average right now.
 
Gibbo_88 said:
In a few weeks time if nothings changed then this thread is spot on but I've just watched two games where there was hardly any decent inside 50's. Give him a chance. All of our forwards are looking below average right now.
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Our forwards are looking below average right now because they are playing below average right now. FFS they can not kick!!!
 
Quite sad to see this thread pop up. oh ye. but you can't help but like the taste of blood can you. god knows he has spilt enough. and here we sit. waiting for another taste. if we can't get it from him charging against the flight of the ball then by christ we'll get it watching him fall. a soldier and a gun. and not done yet. **** it lets milk the man for all he is worth. What did Freud say about killing the father?? The pervert victorian journo in me is wondering 'what if?' What if after the supposedly mandatory 5 round warm up Brown still isn't showing up.'. What does it mean for the other players if J Brown can't hold his spot in the side. How do the younger players view that? Kill the father??!
 
The same sorts of things started being said around this time last year. He went on to have a reasonably productive season. Are we really going to judge the great man after a round 1 flogging and a round 2 game where it was pouring rain and not good conditions for any forwards? Not to mention the fact our midfield is providing him with nothing. Whilst I agree this may be his final year, as opposed to being confident for 2 more at the start of the season - I still don't think we can write him off just yet, especially while the team is under performing across the board. I expect an up and down year for Brownie, but mark my words, he will still kick bags if our midfield can get going and get the ball moving properly ala - NAB cup final.
 

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It was noted during the Essendon Melbourne game last night that teams now have 200cm key backmen. This was not the case 5 years ago when our man mountain Captain was at his best. He seems to go to ground far too often these days and his leading and marking strength has diminished. Having said this though, he will always pull the best defenders and our other forwards should be able to capitalise on this fact. Would like to see big Browny playing more from the goal square which opens up our forward line for the long range shooters and what Browny can't mark our crumbers can swoop on. Fear not a breakout game is just around the corner and these discussions will soon be forgotten.
 
I appreciate that most of you who disagree with me have done so without getting upset about it.

I'd argue with you about why I think it's different this time, but my heart's not in it.

I really want him to come out and kick seven goals next week on Matt Warnock and single-handedly smash the Suns.
 
TomFC said:
I appreciate that most of you who disagree with me have done so without getting upset about it.

I'd argue with you about why I think it's different this time, but my heart's not in it.

I really want him to come out and kick seven goals next week on Matt Warnock and single-handedly smash the Suns.
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I'd prefer a collective around the ground whitewash where each of our forwards kicks 3+, but hey, each to their own. :p
 
First things first - I am bloody dissappointed that there are some Lions fans on Big Footy that are showing some massive disrespect to Browny - our Captain; for almost a decade now the lifeblood of our team; one of the greatest Lions of all time; and a fantastic bloke to boot.

This is not aimed at Tom FC for starting this thread or others who have discussed it rationally. But some of the things I have seen written about Brown by Lions supporters in the past week on the main board and yesterday in the game thread make me want to puke.

That is not how you treat our champion - so to those responsible - pull your bloody heads in and think before you post.


Now, as for the elephant in the room, if things keep going the same way as they have been for the last two matches then this will be Brown's last year. I am sure he would be the first one to admit that when the time comes.

He must be perhaps my favourite all time player - I absolutely love the bloke, I love all he represents and what he has done for our club. But I admit the last couple of years the signs have been there that things are coming to an end.

He strugles to run at speed; he is increasingly struggling to get separation from opponents; changes in AFL rules mean he can't use his body the way he used to; he can hardly jump; and he struggles to put defensive pressure in the forward line. However all of that is comparing Brown to his younger self.

Let's not exaggerate things too much. There are a whole host of mitigating circumstances and other factors that mean the 'Brown problem' is being blown out of proportion.

- when our midfield is on top, Brown will still be very dangerous - the Carlton game proves that;
- when other forwards are seen as targets as well then Brown can do a job by being a diversionary target - the NAB Cup game against Collingwood showed this (Bewick stepped up, yet Collingwood defenders kept concentrating on Brown even though he was out of touch in his first game back);
- the Bulldogs game - the whole team struggled. However, despite things not going his way Brown kept presenting the whole match. In contrast ACorn (who I also watched closely that game) mostly refused to lead; ACorn was suddenly horribly out of form and lacking confidence.
- the Adelaide game - wet day, strong opposition, midfield bombing it in. Have a look at Taylor Walker or Stefan Martin's stats vs. Browns - the difference wasn't huge at all. It wasn't a day for key forwards.

In any case, what is the alternative?

- dropping Brown is not an option in my opinion - he is the captain and a legend - he either plays; or if resting him by not playing every single game will help him recover / play better then we should think of doing that; or ultimately he retires. Brown will not be playing reserves IMHO.
- who do we replace him with? The options are ACorn, Lisle, or McKeever.
- ACorn - he shows glimpses that he might make it, but just as quickly he shows you why he probably won't. He struggles in body on body contests; he is very mentally fragile; his defensive work isn't anywhere near good enough; his fitness isn't good enough. I think he will come in and out of the team all year - when we are playing well he will be OK, but the Bulldogs game cemented my huge doubts about his future - when things aren't going your way, ACorn is not the kind of person you want on your side.
- Lisle - he is apparently starting to play OK in the reserves, but he is slow, his kicking isn't great, and his defensive pressure isn't great. I haven't written him off but it is not clear cut he has what it takes to be an AFL player. Again I think he will his chance this year - which is probably make or break for him.
- McKeever - also starting to play OK in the reserves; he is more agile, though he will struggle in a contested situation and he strugles with his kicking. He would probably be better suited at CHF (if only he had a great kick like Browny - to either kick a long goal or spot up an opponent). Again it is hard to say whether he will make it or not - although this year might be his last chance also.

So the alternatives are hardly demanding selection. They all have big defiencies - we have no superstar replacement that is for sure.

For the moment I think I would keep Brown and Martin as our forwards (along with Bewick), and think about replacing McGrath with Banfield (to give us three quick crumbers - Green, Banfield, Zorko). McKeever or Patty K might be other alternatives to replace McGrath.

While it is hypocritical to say Brown can't / shouldn't be dropped, but McGrath can / should be - that is the reality of things (unfortunately for McGrath his time his starting to look up also).
 
I'm sure of all of us JB is in the best place to know where he is, how he feels and what influence he thinks he can still have on the team and a game. He may be a lot of things but hes not selfish, hes not ego driven nor is going to do anything to let the team down. He knows the end is coming but I'm pretty damn sure that hell make the right call when it matters.

The reality is that he has pretty much always been a one dimensional player. The crash and bash, tough CHF that we needed to break packs and take key defenders. And in isolation he still is. Nothing has changed in that way at all.

His issue - and until we figure out how to restructure around him - has always been his disposal. Hes never been able to hand ball or chip kick with accuracy. And at times his decision making just stinks - but it ALWAYS has. Hes never had a midfeilders touch. He's never had a backmans tackle. Hes a big heavy unyielding brute. Simple.

Yep I watched the game and swore when he lumbered across the field. I yelled when he miscued hand balls and kick passes. But I have done for years...its nothing new.

No question hes a bit slower. Shit I'm exactly Browny's size... 198cm and 100 odd kg... I know what it feels like. But his presence and influence just cant be replaced. One day it will have to be... but not yet. And he'll know when the time is right.

I cant wait till he strings a few games together of 3 or 4 or 5 influential goals in a victorious side. I'm pretty sure this thread might take an interesting twist right about then. ;)
 
Browny's thoughts on the issue

By his own admission, Brown's form has not been up to his usual standard over the opening fortnight of the premiership but said he was not carrying an injury.

A five-goal haul in the NAB Cup final raised hopes among Lions fans he was back to his Coleman medal-winning best, but the goals have dried up in the opening weeks.

"I've kicked one goal in two weeks so it probably goes without saying I reckon," Brown said. "I'm physically fine. "I haven't had a big pre-season and I had a lot later start so I wasn't expecting to have a real big start to the year.

"I am using the first month to work myself into match fitness and get my timing right. "I'm comfortable with where I am at the moment."
Click to expand...
 
Sorry to intrude. 3 weeks ago he kicked 5 in NAB cup GF when you were up and about. As the old saying goes form is temporary and class is permanent. I think you'll find him roll into form soon enough and wouldn't doubt that he may go on another year. I strongly believe the lions are on the way up and i honestly believe Brown still has a big part to play.

Good luck for the season.
 
He may be out of form and he may never regain good touch, but I wouldn't be in a hurry to toss him out until we have a better alternative. A down and out Brown is still more valuable than any of the replacements suggested. I am quite happy for his successors to continue their development in the reserves while we keep the big man on the ground.
 
Last of the Roys said:
First things first - I am bloody dissappointed that there are some Lions fans on Big Footy that are showing some massive disrespect to Browny - our Captain; for almost a decade now the lifeblood of our team; one of the greatest Lions of all time; and a fantastic bloke to boot.

This is not aimed at Tom FC for starting this thread or others who have discussed it rationally. But some of the things I have seen written about Brown by Lions supporters in the past week on the main board and yesterday in the game thread make me want to puke.

That is not how you treat our champion - so to those responsible - pull your bloody heads in and think before you post.


Now, as for the elephant in the room, if things keep going the same way as they have been for the last two matches then this will be Brown's last year. I am sure he would be the first one to admit that when the time comes.

He must be perhaps my favourite all time player - I absolutely love the bloke, I love all he represents and what he has done for our club. But I admit the last couple of years the signs have been there that things are coming to an end.

He strugles to run at speed; he is increasingly struggling to get separation from opponents; changes in AFL rules mean he can't use his body the way he used to; he can hardly jump; and he struggles to put defensive pressure in the forward line. However all of that is comparing Brown to his younger self.

Let's not exaggerate things too much. There are a whole host of mitigating circumstances and other factors that mean the 'Brown problem' is being blown out of proportion.

- when our midfield is on top, Brown will still be very dangerous - the Carlton game proves that;
- when other forwards are seen as targets as well then Brown can do a job by being a diversionary target - the NAB Cup game against Collingwood showed this (Bewick stepped up, yet Collingwood defenders kept concentrating on Brown even though he was out of touch in his first game back);
- the Bulldogs game - the whole team struggled. However, despite things not going his way Brown kept presenting the whole match. In contrast ACorn (who I also watched closely that game) mostly refused to lead; ACorn was suddenly horribly out of form and lacking confidence.
- the Adelaide game - wet day, strong opposition, midfield bombing it in. Have a look at Taylor Walker or Stefan Martin's stats vs. Browns - the difference wasn't huge at all. It wasn't a day for key forwards.

In any case, what is the alternative?

- dropping Brown is not an option in my opinion - he is the captain and a legend - he either plays; or if resting him by not playing every single game will help him recover / play better then we should think of doing that; or ultimately he retires. Brown will not be playing reserves IMHO.
- who do we replace him with? The options are ACorn, Lisle, or McKeever.
- ACorn - he shows glimpses that he might make it, but just as quickly he shows you why he probably won't. He struggles in body on body contests; he is very mentally fragile; his defensive work isn't anywhere near good enough; his fitness isn't good enough. I think he will come in and out of the team all year - when we are playing well he will be OK, but the Bulldogs game cemented my huge doubts about his future - when things aren't going your way, ACorn is not the kind of person you want on your side.
- Lisle - he is apparently starting to play OK in the reserves, but he is slow, his kicking isn't great, and his defensive pressure isn't great. I haven't written him off but it is not clear cut he has what it takes to be an AFL player. Again I think he will his chance this year - which is probably make or break for him.
- McKeever - also starting to play OK in the reserves; he is more agile, though he will struggle in a contested situation and he strugles with his kicking. He would probably be better suited at CHF (if only he had a great kick like Browny - to either kick a long goal or spot up an opponent). Again it is hard to say whether he will make it or not - although this year might be his last chance also.

So the alternatives are hardly demanding selection. They all have big defiencies - we have no superstar replacement that is for sure.

For the moment I think I would keep Brown and Martin as our forwards (along with Bewick), and think about replacing McGrath with Banfield (to give us three quick crumbers - Green, Banfield, Zorko). McKeever or Patty K might be other alternatives to replace McGrath.

While it is hypocritical to say Brown can't / shouldn't be dropped, but McGrath can / should be - that is the reality of things (unfortunately for McGrath his time his starting to look up also).
Click to expand...

If there was a perfect post, ^^^ would be it. :thumbsu::thumbsu::thumbsu:
 

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We need to talk about Jonathan Brown

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