What They're Saying - The Bulldogs Media Thread - Part 4

[geoffjennings79]

I know it's not the point of the post but it is worth remembering that Contested Marks have only been recorded since 1999, so Chris Grant's, Brad Johnson's and Luke Darcy's numbers are missing for 1990-1998 and 1994-1998 respectively, as are any of our key forwards/backs who played before 1999.

Having said that Naughton will almost certainly be at #1 at the end of his career.

He may be #1 for the period that contested marks have been recorded, but a bloke by the name of Dempsey would still have him covered.
In the same way that in the few games where someone kept count Haydn Bunton had 45-50 possession games while the rest of his team struggled, or Taylor Swift breaks streaming "records" never afforded to The Beatles, comparisons between eras is largely meaningless. Scott Wynd regularly dropping in front of Lockett/Dunstall/Brereton/Ablett/Kernahan/Carey or Peter Foster outmarking those CHFs in direct one-on-one duels or the Knights/Vanderhaar duel also suffer in comparison with lack of meaningful statistics.

This isn't a go at you btw Oliver G or devaluing Naughton, I just largely ignore the modern claims of greatness across sport/music/etc largely by media or media-like reporting for this very reason.

It's not exclusive to our era though. The media in Bradman's time completely ignored the fact that someone like Victor Trumper played on uncovered and/or artificial pitches in far more challenging conditions. Or that Matthew Hayden's at the time record test score was against Zimbabwe's second-string bowling attack due to players being unavailable for political reasons.

I've heard Kelvin Templeton speak in person (albeit at a Melbourne FC event) and say his 9 goal effort against Geoff Southby in round 10 1978 was a better performance in his mind than the 15 goals he kicked a few weeks later given he was opposed late in that game by Robert Elliott (not exactly a renowned full back) and finally by 183cm Trevor Barker. But the obsession with best statistical performances always focusses on his 15.9.

Anyway, I should have posted this rant in the "Yelling at Clouds" thread, sorry...

 

[Oliver G]

He may be #1 for the period that contested marks have been recorded, but a bloke by the name of Dempsey would still have him covered.
In the same way that in the few games where someone kept count Haydn Bunton had 45-50 possession games while the rest of his team struggled, or Taylor Swift breaks streaming "records" never afforded to The Beatles, comparisons between eras is largely meaningless. Scott Wynd regularly dropping in front of Lockett/Dunstall/Brereton/Ablett/Kernahan/Carey or Peter Foster outmarking those CHFs in direct one-on-one duels or the Knights/Vanderhaar duel also suffer in comparison with lack of meaningful statistics.

This isn't a go at you btw Oliver G or devaluing Naughton, I just largely ignore the modern claims of greatness across sport/music/etc largely by media or media-like reporting for this very reason.

It's not exclusive to our era though. The media in Bradman's time completely ignored the fact that someone like Victor Trumper played on uncovered and/or artificial pitches in far more challenging conditions. Or that Matthew Hayden's at the time record test score was against Zimbabwe's second-string bowling attack due to players being unavailable for political reasons.

I've heard Kelvin Templeton speak in person (albeit at a Melbourne FC event) and say his 9 goal effort against Geoff Southby in round 10 1978 was a better performance in his mind than the 15 goals he kicked a few weeks later given he was opposed late in that game by Robert Elliott (not exactly a renowned full back) and finally by 183cm Trevor Barker. But the obsession with best statistical performances always focusses on his 15.9.

Anyway, I should have posted this rant in the "Yelling at Clouds" thread, sorry...

Yeah sorry I should've been more clear, in regards to him being #1 I was referring to any player who had played during the 1999-present era when contested marks for each game have been recorded.

 

[geoffjennings79]

Yeah sorry I should've been more clear, in regards to him being #1 I was referring to any player who had played during the 1999-present era when contested marks for each game have been recorded.

Don't apologise - I think you were clear enough - I just saw another opportunity for a tangential rant by using your molehill post and building a mountain!

 

[Next Waiting]

Don't apologise - I think you were clear enough - I just saw another opportunity for a tangential rant by using your molehill post and building a mountain!

A true Hall of Flamer

 

[Oliver G]

Don't apologise - I think you were clear enough - I just saw another opportunity for a tangential rant by using your molehill post and building a mountain!

I love it and wish more people would call out that sort of stuff. As someone who researches the history of Australian football for a living, it drives me crazy when I see people posting "most ever" records or comparing the careers of players decades apart.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I love it and wish more people would call out that sort of stuff. As someone who researches the history of Australian football for a living, it drives me crazy when I see people posting "most ever" records or comparing the careers of players decades apart.

Even the way that Champion Data slowly changed their statistical recording over the last 25 years of operations makes a difference too - a comparison that was made with Rowell being compared Paul Salmon's 'clearance' record:

Matt Rowell, Paul Salmon, and the footy record that was never to be

Clearance king Matt Rowell's astonishing game for the Suns drew headlines against Richmond, although it came up short of the great Paul Salmon — but as Cody Atkinson and Sean Lawson write, the truth of who holds the record may be a matter of definition and measurement.

www.abc.net.au

Modern footy is far more contested (1999 had a tackle for every 12th disposal, modern footy less than every 6th disposal has a tackle). Yet Champion Data claims that the proportion of contested/uncontested footy has actually decreased (43% of 1999 possessions were contested, 38% of 2024 possessions are contested). Common sense would dictate that they define many possessions as contested in 1999 that they would consider uncontested in 2023 - even though the definitions remain the same.

 

[geoffjennings79]

I love it and wish more people would call out that sort of stuff. As someone who researches the history of Australian football for a living, it drives me crazy when I see people posting "most ever" records or comparing the careers of players decades apart.

I don't research for a living (in spite of what my better half thinks!), but I've been memorising games played, goals kicked and all sorts of stats for over 50 years. Plus collecting vintage footy cards, I've got a whole lot of pre-WW2 data at hand as well. It's a curse...

I remember far more from when I was a kid than recent years though - probably because as a kid you don't have mortgages, off spring, etc to compete for brain space!
(My mates see me as a valuable resource though for trivia and to settle arguments... )

 

[Oliver G]

Even the way that Champion Data slowly changed their statistical recording over the last 25 years of operations makes a difference too - a comparison that was made with Rowell being compared Paul Salmon's 'clearance' record:

Matt Rowell, Paul Salmon, and the footy record that was never to be

Clearance king Matt Rowell's astonishing game for the Suns drew headlines against Richmond, although it came up short of the great Paul Salmon — but as Cody Atkinson and Sean Lawson write, the truth of who holds the record may be a matter of definition and measurement.

www.abc.net.au

Modern footy is far more contested (1999 had a tackle for every 12th disposal, modern footy less than every 6th disposal has a tackle). Yet Champion Data claims that the proportion of contested/uncontested footy has actually decreased (43% of 1999 possessions were contested, 38% of 2024 possessions are contested). Common sense would dictate that they define many possessions as contested in 1999 that they would consider uncontested in 2023 - even though the definitions remain the same.

Champion's definition of contested and uncontested possessions has largely gone unchanged since 1999 but some interpretations of stats such as clearances and tackles have changed over the years.

The big issue for matches before Champion got the licence in the late '90s, was that as often it would be only one person recording the numbers live from the ground, so there would be substantial errors in most matches. Champion has redone a dozen or so matches (off tape) from the 70s to the 90s and there were differences from the Inside Football stats for pretty much every player.

These days there are half a dozen or so CD staff at each match along with another couple at CD HQ reviewing the match live for errors.

The other issue with recording stats for Australian rules football is that so many stats can be interpreted in different ways or be borderline calls, often up to the person "caller" doing the game.

 

[Dogs 13]

I love it and wish more people would call out that sort of stuff. As someone who researches the history of Australian football for a living, it drives me crazy when I see people posting "most ever" records or comparing the careers of players decades apart.

I’m always amused at BT declaring “world records” for clearances, intercept marks, tackles or whatever.

 

[Next Waiting]

It may've been a creative flourish on my behalf.

But If you're wearing Birkenstocks it doesn't seem beyond the realm of all possibilities.

Cords and sandals confirmed by Robbo and Gerard tonight.

You and your CSI thingymagig were spot on.

Think Robbo may have been reading this thread

In other less important observations, the consensus between the two of them is that Bevo is a fine, determined and enigmatic character who isn't leaving anytime soon.