When did the VFL overtake the VFA in popularity?

[finders]

OF course

Was the re-naming of the VFA to the VFL just a final insult? I have always wondered the reasoning for that.

Of course it was! Dont forget the bitterness between the two comps right from the VFLs breakaway in 1896
The meeting to form the VFL was held before the 1896 VFA GF which was won by Collingwood.

Dont forget the VFL continually took the best clubs from the VFA Richmond in 1908 and the the two strongest North Melb and Footscray in 1925 along with Hawthorn to get the eastern suburbs involved.
The VFA each time had to re group and bring in new teams which tended to effect the crowds just like the Suns and GWS are doing to the current AFL crowd average and just like Port and Freo did.
Imagine how the AFL would go if the best 60% of the teams decided to leave and form their own comp The VFA had to cope with this 3 times.

The VFA had two heydays 1920s to 1940s (it died a bit in the 1950s to late 1960s until the sunday footy and CH 0 telecasts came in and 16 a side was introduced) the later on late 1960s to late 1980s

It was not uncommon that the VFA GF drew crowds of between 30 - 40,000

The largest VFA crowd ever was 47,098 the 1939 GF played at the MCG

The 1941 GF had 36,289 at the MCG

Other big VFA GF crowds were all at the Junction Oval 1945 -39,000 1949 - 40,000 1952 - 39,500 1953 - 40,000 the last big GF crowds were 1976 32,

1976 the notorious Port V Dandenong match

1977 the VFAs 100 year 29,664

 

[SJ]

A question to all those who were around in the 1970s and earlier: if one was asked 'which team do you barrack for?', was it common for one to answer with a VFA club? Or both a VFL and VFA club?

 

[Roylion]

It has nothing to do with conclusion of a season. The wooden spoon is determined after the H&A same as the Minor premier. In every other season this was the case.

In every other season there were teams that did not make the finals and concluded their season after the H&A. The lowest of those was awarded the wooden spoon.

Any historical record of the period shows Fitzroy 4th(last) and also the premiers.

OK. So what was the ladder at the conclusion of the 1916 season? Fitzroy was first as the premier. Carlton was second as the runner up? And who was third and last?

Finals are usually seen as a new season, which many do now.

Really? So the 2013 finals series was a new season as distinct from the 2013 H&A which now becomes the season before? I certainly don't regard the 2013 finals series as a new season. As far as I'm concerned the 2013 season and the 1916 season and every other season concludes with the last match of the season, which in most years of the VFL-AFL competition has been the Grand Final.

Sorry the wooden spoon is determined after the H&A season, not after finals, so your point doesn't stand. Records of this season and all other seasons show an asterix next to the premier whether first after the H&A or not. The wooden spooner is always the last team after the H&A.

In most seasons yes...for reasons I have explained above. In all other seasons participating teams have not competed in the final series. The lowest of those teams, whose season concludes at the end of the Home and Away season is awarded the wooden spoon. That did not happen to Fitzroy in 1916. Their season was unfinished.

This is where splitting hairs comes in.

It could be argued that you are equally splitting hairs.

 

[FFS Kick it]

quote
"In most seasons yes...for reasons I have explained above. In all other seasons participating teams have not competed in the final series. The lowest of those teams, whose season concludes at the end of the Home and Away season is awarded the wooden spoon. That did not happen to Fitzroy in 1916. Their season was unfinished".

In all seasons, repeat all seasons the wooden spooner is decided after the H&A season. No argument, conjecture, debate. Everything else is irrelevant when this is true, which it is.

regards FFS

 

[SJ]

quote
"In most seasons yes...for reasons I have explained above. In all other seasons participating teams have not competed in the final series. The lowest of those teams, whose season concludes at the end of the Home and Away season is awarded the wooden spoon. That did not happen to Fitzroy in 1916. Their season was unfinished".

In all seasons, repeat all seasons the wooden spooner is decided after the H&A season. No argument, conjecture, debate. Everything else is irrelevant when this is true, which it is.

regards FFS

I guess the fact that the wooden spoon doesn't exist means that it is never decided.

 

[Roylion]

In all seasons, repeat all seasons the wooden spooner is decided after the H&A season. No argument, conjecture, debate. Everything else is irrelevant when this is true, which it is.

I disagree with the fact that this occurred in 1916. 1916 was an anomaly as you yourself have admitted, given that every single team did not finish their season at the end of the H&A season.

The lowest team at the end of the entire season should be awarded the wooden spoon. The lowest team at the end of the entire 2013 season was GWS. They received the 2013 wooden spoon. The lowest team at the end of the entire 1916 season was Richmond.

 

[FFS Kick it]

I guess the fact that the wooden spoon doesn't exist means that it is never decided.

Perhaps it is symbolic of coming last. Maybe? Perhaps?

regards FFS

 

[FFS Kick it]

I disagree with the fact that this occurred in 1916. 1916 was an anomaly as you yourself have admitted, given that every single team did not finish their season at the end of the H&A season.

The lowest team at the end of the entire season should be awarded the wooden spoon. The lowest team at the end of the entire 2013 season was GWS. They received the 2013 wooden spoon. The lowest team at the end of the entire 1916 season was Richmond.

Sorry but it is silly to change the rationale used for over a 100 years for a single year.

There may be examples where the rule was changed for an exception however, it is not common nor right.

regards FFS

 

[Roylion]

Sorry but it is silly to change the rationale used for over a 100 years for a single year.

I'm not changing the rationale. The lowest team at the end of the entire season gets the wooden spoon, just as the top team at the end of the entire season gets the flag.

 

[FFS Kick it]

I'm not changing the rationale. The lowest team at the end of the entire season gets the wooden spoon, just as the top team at the end of the entire season gets the flag.

Sorry you are. Have you ever looked at when the wooden spooner is awarded. Before the finals series. Always has been.

regards FFS

 

[Roylion]

Sorry you are. Have you ever looked at when the wooden spooner is awarded. Before the finals series. Always has been.

Because the last position has usually been decided by that stage. In 1916 the last position had not been decided. Fitzroy still had at the very least one match to play. In the end they ended up playing three matches. Their season was not over by the end of the H&A rounds.

 

[FFS Kick it]

Groan. Have a nice day

regards FFS

 

[FFS Kick it]

A question to all those who were around in the 1970s and earlier: if one was asked 'which team do you barrack for?', was it common for one to answer with a VFA club? Or both a VFL and VFA club?

Bloody good question SJ. I can remember Sundays watching the VFA. Names like Buster Harland for Port Melbourne running around thumping people.
More passionate about my VFL team however Dandenong (Frosty Miller) and Port Melbourne (Fred Cook) were always near the top of the ladder. Loved em both. Something perhaps a little purer in the VFA. You should go to your local footy and watch. Thats what the VFA was like in the 70's

regards FFS

 

[Roylion]

Groan. Have a nice day

I will.

Look at this way. At the conclusion of the 2013 Grand Final (the end of the season) was GWS still the lowest placed team out of the 18 teams that competed for the 2013 premiership? Of course they were.

At the conclusion of the 1916 Grand Final (the end of the season) was Fitzroy still the lowest placed team out of the 4 teams that competed for the 1916 premiership? No of course not. They were the premiers.

 

[FFS Kick it]

If yo

I will.

Look at this way. At the conclusion of the 2013 Grand Final (the end of the season) was GWS still the lowest placed team out of the 18 teams that competed for the 2013 premiership? Of course they were.

At the conclusion of the 1916 Grand Final (the end of the season) was Fitzroy still the lowest placed team out of the 4 teams that competed for the 1916 premiership? No of course not. They were the premiers.

If you are happy to disregard one of the most famous anomalies in VFL/AFL history then so be it. Your version is not very interesting or exciting is it?

regards FFS

 

[Roylion]

If you are happy to disregard one of the most famous anomalies in VFL/AFL history then so be it. Your version is not very interesting or exciting is it?

Maybe less so than the traditional story. But mine is factual. Fitzroy were the major premiers in 1916. Richmond were the major wooden spooners in 1916.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Maybe less so than the traditional story. But mine is factual. Fitzroy were the major premiers in 1916. Richmond were the major wooden spooners in 1916.

So Fitzroy won the minor wooden spoon and premiership in the same year.

 

[finders]

A question to all those who were around in the 1970s and earlier: if one was asked 'which team do you barrack for?', was it common for one to answer with a VFA club? Or both a VFL and VFA club?

Not often both because of the bitterness and the fact that the VFA teams poached top line VFL players on and off over the years most people had one VFL team and maybe an interest in the local VFA team where they lived but there were a few VFA supporters that didnt follow a VFL team My parents were in the latter group

 

[Roylion]

So Fitzroy won the minor wooden spoon and premiership in the same year.

I guess they did. Richmond won the major wooden spoon, just as Fitzroy were major premiers. Who should be recorded as the winners of both that year?

Carlton aren't recorded as the winners of the flag in 1916, even though they were minor premiers. Fitzroy were the major premiers that year and won the flag. In the same way Fitzroy shouldn't be recorded as the winner of the wooden spoon. That 'honour' goes to Richmond as the major wooden spoon winners.

 

[SJ]

Not often both because of the bitterness and the fact that the VFA teams poached top line VFL players on and off over the years most people had one VFL team and maybe an interest in the local VFA team where they lived but there were a few VFA supporters that didnt follow a VFL team My parents were in the latter group

So if they were asked that question, would they answer with a VFA club and would that answer be received without surprise?

 

[finders]

So if they were asked that question, would they answer with a VFA club and would that answer be received without surprise?

Yes would be the answer I didnt have a favorite VFL team growing up and a lot of other kids would have a go at me.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

So if they were asked that question, would they answer with a VFA club and would that answer be received without surprise?

I asked my old man as he used to follow both (in the 70s and early 80s). He said everyone (he knew) had a VFL team and if someone asked you who you barracked for, it would be them. But they also went and watched their local VFA club each week and the crowds were good.

It's probably bit like local footy today - lots of people go and watch a side regularly if its local or they know some players or something... but if you ask them who they barrack for, it's their AFL side.

It's something that's sadly lacking in Melbourne today, that top level of suburban football. I guess that's what the VFA was, but the AFL has put paid to it.

 

[finders]

I asked my old man as he used to follow both (in the 70s and early 80s). He said everyone (he knew) had a VFL team and if someone asked you who you barracked for, it would be them. But they also went and watched their local VFA club each week and the crowds were good.

It's probably bit like local footy today - lots of people go and watch a side regularly if its local or they know some players or something... but if you ask them who they barrack for, it's their AFL side.

It's something that's sadly lacking in Melbourne today, that top level of suburban football. I guess that's what the VFA was, but the AFL has put paid to it.

Thats what the current VFL is supposed but with big brother calling the shots it aint going to happen any time soon.

The VFL with so many AFL seconds teams now in the comp is becoming just the AFL reserves under a different name so if you already follow an AFL team why would you waste time going to Seconds matches?
The VFA was a unique comp and equal oldest with the SANFL but sadly the AFL killed it deliberately when they changed the name to the VFL which it NEVER was and still isint.

Fact - ALL Victorian and the Sydney Swans AFL/VFL clubs came from the VFA no VFA clubs came from the VFL!

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Yeah it's AFL reserves, aside from Port and Frankston who unfortunately for them are kind of stuck in no mans land.

I'd like to see a top metro league tried, but the AFL aren't interested. Just somewhere for the old VFA clubs and top suburban clubs (many of whom have outgrown their local league) to play. It'd have to have relegation and promotion with local leagues to remain viable.

 

[The Speaker]

The AFL aren't interested in anything other than the AFL.