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Crumden

Premiership Player
Oct 18, 2002
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Canberra
AFL Club
Richmond
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Richmond
This pains me a bit because some of the guys I am highlighting I have been a big fan of (particularly Edwards and White and a lesser extent mcGuane), but the areas we need to improve on are fairly obvious. For comparison I have used this weeks named team and have highlighted the positions we need to improve.

Backline (main need: CHB): Need another key backman. Thursty not up to it. I've been a McGuane fan but he needed to take a step forward this year and if anything had gone backwards. Grimes and Moore will come back next year to fill one spot, but seem to be more flanker/3rd tall types and we desperately need someone to stand up in that CHB spot.

Centreline (main need: Wing): A spot I reckon has been a deficiency for us for a long long time. I've been a long time supporter of Edwards - creative, breaks the lines, good overhead for his size, but his kicking just hasn't improved. Unfortunatey in the modern game if you can't kick you can't play. On current list he is best for the spot, but we need someone better. Need a creative ball user with good skills on the wing. A Dale Thomas type would be ideal.

Forward line (main need: mid size marking forward flank). On present form CHF is the main need, but I reckon between Griffith and vickery we will have that covered long term. What we need is for Mitch morton to play to his full ability on a flank. He can run, mark, be creative and kick goals. We just need for him to do it all more consistently. And we despareately need some depth if he doesn't. I love the way Matty White goes about his footy, he gives it everything he's got. But he is too short for the lead up half forward role he has played at times and doesn't get enough of the footy or kick enough goals for a midfielder/come small forward.

Followers (part 1): Obviously need a ruckman. Don't know what Bellchambers contract is but i would be chucking big money at him, but there are also a few alternatives around. Like Mumford Bellchamers has plenty of talent but being kept out by more experienced team-mates. I don't see graham as a delisting but we need to upgrade so that he is at best a backup.

Followers (part 2). Conca and Foley are good players, but not first line midfielders. Conca may become one. Foley had made a great comeback from where he was, and still easily a best 22 player, but I would like to see another top class ball winning starting midfielder in the team. A Joel Selwood type would be ideal.

Bench: In talent terms probably the best looking bench we've had all year, but ideally we would want a lot more pace on the interchange. Tucky is obviously on his last legs from the clubs perspective and I can't see him being on the list next year. Based on my views above, I'd slot Morton onto a flank and Foley on to the bench. That would add pace to the bench and leave a spot open for another speedy interchange player.

Key areas we need to improve highlighted (based on this weeks starting 18). (Bold = players on last legs.)

B: Chris Newman, Alex Rance, Luke McGuane
HB: Brett Deledio, Will Thursfield, Bachar Houli
C: Trent Cotchin, Dustin Martin, Shane Edwards
HF: Robin Nahas, Ben Griffiths, Matthew White
F: Tyrone Vickery, Jack Riewoldt, Jake King
FOLL: Angus Graham, Reece Conca, Nathan Foley
I/C: Daniel Jackson, Shane Tuck, Mitch Morton, Jake Batchelor

I don't necessarily see all 6 I have highlighted as all being delisted, as they are likely ahead of a few others currently playing for Coburg (though I suspect at least 3-4 of them will go). But they need to be replaced as first choice players for the seniors.

And how I see it needing to improve:
B: Chris Newman, Alex Rance, Grimes/Moore
HB: Brett Deledio, CHB, Houli
C: Trent Cotchin, Dustin Martin, wing
HF: Robin Nahas, Ben Griffiths, Mitch Morton
F: Tyrone Vickery, Jack Riewoldt, Jake King
FOLL: Ruck, Reece Conca, midfielder
I/C: Daniel Jackson, Nathan Foley, bench, Jake Batchelor

(bold = new players required; blue = changes from round 17 team)

While 4 or 5 changes doesn't sound like many from where we have been the last few weeks, it involves replacing our bottom 4 or 5 with a top class 4 or 5, so would take 2 years or at least one very good year of drafting and trading. Biggest worry is that apart from Astbury we have no-one who looks like even potentially filling our key needs at the moment.

Obviously this requires continuing improvement in our young players like Griff, Vickery, Conca, Rance and Batchelor (and even Cotch and Martin), but I'm reasonably confident on those blokes. There are still some players in the team have some deficiencies, but the key is to not have too many of those types. Guys like Nahas, Jackson and King (the latter who I have written off plenty of times) can fill a role and be valuable players if there is enough quality around them.

If we could get a ruckman and maybe key defender (Trengrove?) in trade and then concentrate on building our midfield in the draft, we could still make some rapid progress with our list next year.
 
Agree 100% great post.

Really Daniel Jackson, King and Nahas need to be our bottom 3 players, where as currently they are in the top 10. I would think with natural improvement of young guys as well as drafting this can happen.

Need to find a young ruck through the trade period.

Our first pick this year is going to be interesting because we either draft the best CHB available or we continue to bolster our midfield. I think our midfield actually makes our KPD's look bad and that would be the area I target first.

That way we go into the 2012 mega draft with 3 picks in the top 25 and needing to fill the following positions:

And how I see it needing to improve:
B: Chris Newman, Alex Rance, Grimes/Moore
HB: Brett Deledio, CHB, Houli
C: Trent Cotchin, Dustin Martin, Pick 12 2011 draft
HF: Robin Nahas, Ben Griffiths, Mitch Morton
F: Tyrone Vickery, Jack Riewoldt, Jake King
FOLL: Ruck, Reece Conca, midfielderI/C: Daniel Jackson, Nathan Foley, bench, Jake Batchelor

Use the first pick in a strong draft next year to get a CHB and then use the following two picks to draft more mids.
 
I think we should try and trade Moore and Thursty. Not sure what we'll get though if we get anything at all. I'd definately keep Mcguane because he does a pretty good job at full back and although he occasionally stuffs up a short kick he's still only 24 and there's plenty of time on his side. It would be ridiculous if Post isn't given a handful of games in defence after next weeks bye to finish off the season. So for the rest of the season I'd have a defence like:

fb: batchelor mcguane newman
hb: post rance deledio

and next season we'll have Grimes and Astbury back. Maybe give Gourdis another year. Moore and Thursty have to go. We have too many tall defenders not that Moore is tall anyway. They'll just get in the way of development. I think we are right for tall defenders for now until everyone is given enough opportunity to prove themselves. Won't hurt to draft another young tall defender though.

The missing link in our midfield has been Morton. Talentwise he'd make our 22 every week and he's only being hardened up at Coburg. We have to get a ruckman though. Probably 2 ruckman actually. Several to choose from eg. Keefe, Gorringe, Clarke, Clarke, McIntosh, Simpson etc. We must get 2. So our midfield may be:

c: conca cotchin morton
foll: clarke martin foley

The forward line has great tall options but we need to gain small defenders. I'd like to see Houli and Helbig up there a bit next season. I'm concerned what Nahas can provide us next year. I think he might find it tough again. Anyway, our forward line could be:

hf houli griffiths king
ff: helbig vickery reiwoldt

My team for 2012 would be the following with your holes filled

fb: batchelor mcguane newman
hb: grimes rance deledio
c: conca cotchin morton
hf: houli griffiths king
ff: helbig vickery reiwoldt
foll: clarke martin foley
int: post webberley midfielder pick 1 grigg(sub)
emer: astbury mcintosh connors macdonald

Delist/trade:
moore
thursfield
miller
tuck
hislop
taylor
graham
westoff(rookie)
hicks(rookie)

One more chance:
white
nason
edwards
farmer
jackson
gourdis
nahas

ins:
18 year old midfielder(pick 1)
clarke?
mcintosh?
18 year old tall back
18 year old midfielder
18 tear old small forward

Our midfield will be better with foley, martin, cotchin, conca becoming fitter. We probably had the unfitest midfield in afl this year but it will catch up to the rest of the comp next year plus we'll most likely add another midfielder with our 1st pick. With 2 new ruckman, a step up in fitness and a 1st round addition our midfield should be alot more dangerous in 2012. This will improve our defence and forward line alot too. The key is to invest in 2 ruckman and keep our 1st pick
 

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I think we should try and trade Moore and Thursty. Not sure what we'll get though if we get anything at all. I'd definately keep Mcguane because he does a pretty good job at full back and although he occasionally stuffs up a short kick he's still only 24 and there's plenty of time on his side. It would be ridiculous if Post isn't given a handful of games in defence after next weeks bye to finish off the season. So for the rest of the season I'd have a defence like:

fb: batchelor mcguane newman
hb: post rance deledio

and next season we'll have Grimes and Astbury back. Maybe give Gourdis another year. Moore and Thursty have to go. We have too many tall defenders not that Moore is tall. I think we are right for tall defenders for now until everyone is given enough opportunity to prove themselves. Won't hurt to draft another young tall defender though.

The missing link in our midfield has been Morton. Talentwise he'd make our 22 every week and he's only being hardened up at Coburg. We have to get a ruckman though. Probably 2 ruckman actually. Several to choose from eg. Keefe, Gorringe, Clarke, Clarke, McIntosh, Simpson etc. We must get 2. So our midfield may be:

c: conca cotchin morton
foll: clarke martin foley

The forward line has great tall options but we need to gain small defenders. I'd like to see Houli and Helbig up there a bit next season. I'm concerned what Nahas can provide us next year. I think he might find it tough again. Anyway, our forward line could be:

hf houli griffiths king
ff: helbig vickery reiwoldt

My team for 2012 would be the following with your holes filled

fb: batchelor mcguane newman
hb: grimes rance deledio
c: conca cotchin morton
hf: houli griffiths king
ff: helbig vickery reiwoldt
foll: clarke martin foley
int: post webberley midfielder pick 1 grigg(sub)
emer: astbury mcintosh connors macdonald

Delist/trade:
moore
thursfield
miller
tuck
hislop
taylor
graham
westoff(rookie)
hicks(rookie)

One more chance:
white
nason
edwards
farmer
jackson
gourdis
nahas


ins:
18 year old midfielder(pick 1)
clarke?
mcintosh?
18 year old tall back
18 year old midfielder
18 tear old small forward

Our midfield will be better with foley, martin, cotchin, conca becoming fitter. We probably had the unfitest midfield in afl this year but it will catch up to the rest of the comp next year plus we'll most likely add another midfielder with our 1st pick. With 2 new ruckman, a step up in fitness and a 1st round addition our midfield should be alot more dangerous in 2012. This will improve our defence and forward line alot too. The key is to invest in 2 ruckman and keep our 1st pick

It is good that all these players are highlighted as iffy. I say iffy as Edwards has been serviceable and NAhas has been okay while Moore is injured. You can throw Mcguane into the mix and and the years go one Newie will retire and Kingy will likely lose his pace.

So what does this all mean. Well there are no quick fixes and we need to go through the draft and 17 year olds to build our base list before we start plugging holes


Bottom line is there are too many holes at the moment so no position is pressing because our window doesn't start for at least another 4 years and that would be optmistic. This is okay , we just need to go for the 17 year olds and draft to improve the support to Cotch with best available across the board and co and when we get stronger in 4 years then we can be a bit more precise about specific positional deficiences!!
 
It is good that all these players are highlighted as iffy. I say iffy as Edwards has been serviceable and NAhas has been okay while Moore is injured. You can throw Mcguane into the mix and and the years go one Newie will retire and Kingy will likely lose his pace.

So what does this all mean. Well there are no quick fixes and we need to go through the draft and 17 year olds to build our base list before we start plugging holes


Bottom line is there are too many holes at the moment so no position is pressing because our window doesn't start for at least another 4 years and that would be optmistic. This is okay , we just need to go for the 17 year olds and draft to improve the support to Cotch with best available across the board and co and when we get stronger in 4 years then we can be a bit more precise about specific positional deficiences!!

We should have up to 10 players cleaned out later this year as I've mentioned in my post. Next year we'll be at the league standard of about 6 delistings. I think Connors will be handy in defence once Newman goes. I have a small forward draft pick and Macdonald mentioned as replacements for King when he retires
 
We should have up to 10 players cleaned out later this year as I've mentioned in my post. Next year we'll be at the league standard of about 6 delistings. I think Connors will be handy in defence once Newman goes. I have a small forward draft pick and Macdonald mentioned as replacements for King when he retires

Actually it might be in our interest to delist more in 2012 than 2011 because if 2012 draft better than 2011 we do not want to get 2011 questionable draft picks we hold for two years in the way of superior 2012 draft picks. It is a balancing act and I am no expert but on balance I would have thought it would be better to delist several this year but even more in 2012 to take advantage of the so-called super draft
 
We should have up to 10 players cleaned out later this year as I've mentioned in my post. Next year we'll be at the league standard of about 6 delistings. I think Connors will be handy in defence once Newman goes. I have a small forward draft pick and Macdonald mentioned as replacements for King when he retires

If and its a big if...10 players get delisted...which means going through the chaff to find the rough diamonds...more player 'development'...

Throw in the compromised drafts...Our key position deficiencies...

As well as every other club knowing our own players weaknesses which will limit their trade appeal...

Two more AFL sides in the comp choc full of top young draft picks eager to prove themselves...

Free agency for players on the immediate horizon...

Its not going to be that simple...and its going to be a long hard slog for the RFC...and the supporters...possibly years...

My guesstimation is five before we even sniff a competitive finals spot...

The only thing in our favour is other sides may start to rebuild their teams as well...while we are advanced in rebuilding our own...
 
If and its a big if...10 players get delisted...which means going through the chaff to find the rough diamonds...more player 'development'...

Throw in the compromised drafts...Our key position defeciencies...

As well as every other club knowing our own players weaknesses which will limit their trade appeal...

Two more AFL sides in the comp choc full of top young draft picks eager to prove themselves...

Free agency for players on the immediate horizon...

Its not going to be that simple...and its going to be a long hard slog for the RFC...and the supporters...possibly years...

My guesstimation is five before we even sniff a competitive finals spot...

The only thing in our favour is other sides may start to rebuild their sides as well...while we are advanced in rebuilding our own...

If we can get 2 ruckman I think we'll be alot closer than most think. The midfield controls how much presser our defence is under and how much opportunity our forward line gets. We look like adding a top midfielder in 3 months time. Our midfield potentially can be one of the best in the comp in a couple of years. This draft period and preseason is very important for our engine room. Get 2 rucks and a midfielder and get our midfield fitness up to scratch and look out. Surely we can get 1 athletic ruckman to the club at least
 
If we can get 2 ruckman I think we'll be alot closer than most think. The midfield controls how much presser our defence is under and how much opportunity our forward line gets. We look like adding a top midfielder in 3 months time. Our midfield potentially can be one of the best in the comp in a couple of years. This draft period and preseason is very important for our engine room. Get 2 rucks and a midfielder and get our midfield fitness up to scratch and look out. Surely we can get 1 athletic ruckman to the club at least

I like your confidence MD...but you have failed to highlight a major RFC deficiency...a lack of a Key Position Backman as well...a good one!...
 
Easy solve to one of your areas of concern.

Howsabout both Moore and Grimes into the backline and shift Deledio onto the wing. Deledio not good enough to cut it in the actual mdfield but would be the most ideal running creative outside wing player
 
I like your confidence MD...but you have failed to highlight a major RFC deficiency...a lack of a Key Position Backman as well...a good one!...

I think we have one already. I'd only draft an 18 year old tall defender and work on what we have while delisting/trading Moore and Thursfield. Our defence is just about the most entered defence in the league so alot of the problem has been the midfield. Get the midfield right and our defence looks a whole lot better. I think we have players to work with and I don't think we can afford to trade for another tall defender when we have to trade for ruckman this year. I think we can make a good defence with:

mcguane-unfairly maligned in here, great stopper, needs composure still
rance-improving out of sight
grimes-very promising games this year
astbury-plenty to work with
post-is well overdue for a block of games, poorly treated by the club
gourdis-one more year
18 year old pick

Get the midfield right and pesist with our listed talls. I think you'll find we will be fine.
 
I rate midfielders as the most important area for us to fix first so ALL low picks should b young hard midfielders but we hav to pick up a cheap experienced stop gap ruck and a cheap developing ruck .All holes in the list can not b filled in 1 draft so just gonna hav to make do with what we got and hope they improve.
 

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Followers (part 1): Obviously need a ruckman. Don't know what Bellchambers contract is but i would be chucking big money at him...

I don't see graham as a delisting but we need to upgrade so that he is at best a backup.

Big money for Bellchambers and Graham a backup when Graham beat Bellchambers in the VFL only weeks back?

Most of your post is pretty good Crum, but the above gap in your perception of each players' ability is all about reputation and not reality.

I know it's inconvenient for practically everyone (especially Dimmer!), but Graham DID beat Bellchambers, Vickery DID beat Mitch Clark easily (as Graham would also have), and Graham also beat Daw recently, who from all talk seems closer to a senior game with the Roos than McIntosh is. Our rucks have better form than all the players you blokes want to give away precious draft picks for.

Graham's 2-3 seasons off entering his peak playing years, he's only in his second year as a senior ruckman, and this season has seen the most revolutionary and rapid changes to ruck requirements in the history of the game.

It's not his fault Hardwick has abysmal judgement, he's done as well as could be expected in his senior games this year and he's several grades above Browne at this stage to anyone with eyes, not to mention most of the players suggested to replace him.
 
The Holes on our list are:

A key Defender : Possible Targets - Carlisle (Port), Talia (Adel). Luke McGuane is 25 next year - is undersized, underskilled, and makes poor decisions. after almost 90 games youd expect to start seeing improvement - i see none. Thursty and the Gourdis i cant see being on the list in 2012.

A #1 Ruckman: Possible Targets - Z.Clarke (Freo), M.Clark (Bris), J.Roughhead (WBD). Ive made my thoughts clear on Browne before. I think four rucks should be on the list for list balance. Zo if we start next season with Clarke, Derickx, Vickery and either gus or a draftee then we would have moved forward.

Defensive mid-fielder: Go to the draft. Jackson is the only player we seem to have groomed in the specialist role on a week to week basis so I guess we persist with him for a while we develop a couple of others. While he is hard at it he is dreadful in traffic and his kicking has become worse which might be due to injury this year, but it is still too poor IMHO.

Small/Medium forwards: Got to the draft. We desperately need someone like robbie gray at port - keep looking in the draft but a genuinely clever small forward is required. I will have no talk of jake king as a long term solution. And nahas is just too one sided for mine to really take for side forward. whites lack of lateral movement rules him out as forward for me.

Another mid-fielder for the rotation: Just draft one no need going after a salopek or dangerfield they are both over priced and over rated.


With some good targeted trading, and some good drafting in the 2012 draft we should be there about in a few seasons.

This is how i see our best 22 when we make finals next probably in 2013 or 14. I think a couple of the draftees will need to mature age types who can slot straight in from a state league, and some smart trades in 2012, as obvioulsy 4-5 first second years players makes it hard to win a lot of games:

B D.Grimes A.Rance B.Helbig
HB B.Houli A.Carlisle J.Batchelor
C B.Deledio D.Martin C.Newman*
HF Draftee B.Griffiths Draftee/Trade
F Draftee
J.Riewoldt T.Vickery
FOLL Z.Clarke T.Cotchin R.Conca
INT S.Grigg N.Foley Draftee/Trade
Draftee
EMG D.Astbury D.Connors Derickx
*Newman may retire before this but looking at heath Scotland he could go on till 31/32 as well.
 
Big money for Bellchambers and Graham a backup when Graham beat Bellchambers in the VFL only weeks back?

Most of your post is pretty good Crum, but the above gap in your perception of each players' ability is all about reputation and not reality.
Maybe I have over-rated bellchambers ray, but I stand by my view that we need an improvement on our current ruck stocks. Whatever his hitouts are, Graham provides little or no hurt factor around the ground.

FWIW I agree on Mitch Clarke. I reckon he is the type that will go missing when you really need him to stand up.
 
good post, although filling those positions wont make us a great side, it is the difference between us being where we are and making finals.

CHB, Ruck and Inside Mid (big bodied, clearance machine) are our biggest needs.
 

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