Which team out of Adelaide, North and Hawthorn has the better youth? Part 2

[Strapping Young Lad]

Don’t even start questioning that the majority of the players listed that have been below average this year aren’t A graders in the making.

What crows supporters struggle with is that everyone has a list of “core” players that are the equal of and in 17 other clubs case better than what they bang on about. The list is in a dreadful state but hysterically hyped in SA.

They have Dawson, Rankine as elite. Then a couple that may get to B+.

Not hard to forget about Curtain.
Being left to rot in one of the most uncompetitive SANFL sides ever seen.
Sometimes at Fullback.
I think Adelaide have also forgotten he exists he’s so blatantly ignored.

Wasn’t Murray. He’s the one that’s been out for 12 months.. wasn’t selected for the past couple of weeks in the AFL side… also playing in the B’s but is still an A grader who’s as good a defender as the AFL has ever seen.

Possibly either Rachele or Murphy you’re referring to that ducked.

Surely we are due another list of Crows players who are so much better than the Hawks players.

It’s been a while.

 

[Soggy2112]

Don’t even start questioning that the majority of the players listed that have been below average this year aren’t A graders in the making.

Who are the not A graders?

Rankine and Dawson are there already.

Michalanney, Murray, Soligo, Rachele, Thilthorpe all definitely have shown the potential to be A graders.

Not hard to forget about Curtain.
Being left to rot in one of the most uncompetitive SANFL sides ever seen.
Sometimes at Fullback.
I think Adelaide have also forgotten he exists he’s so blatantly ignored.

Most uncompetitive is a big stretch. They’ve won 2 games and lost 7, only one of those being a genuine blow out. They’re not performing that badly considering the injuries to Thilthorpe, Himmelberg, Murray, Worrell, Walker across the season. If you take out that many key position players of the list and replace them with the top ups us and Port have to use in the SANFL and you’re unlikely to win.

I do agree though we are wasting him at full back but he’s far from forgotten.

Wasn’t Murray. He’s the one that’s been out for 12 months.. wasn’t selected for the past couple of weeks in the AFL side… also playing in the B’s but is still an A grader who’s as good a defender as the AFL has ever seen.

Wasn’t selected is also just untrue. He has played one SANFL game since his ACL (was dominant in that game btw). Not sure how many players have returned to the league side first game back after a year out but okay.

 

[Soggy2112]

Wasnt rachele because he was the player next to him. I thought it was #28, maybe 29 i dunno

Which game are you referring to?

Murray hasn’t played for a year. Laird is 29 who I’d imagine you’d recognise.

You can see why we perhaps aren’t taking your views on our list that seriously if you’re putting forward posts like this.

 

[Purple7x08_24]

Which game are you referring to?

Murray hasn’t played for a year. Laird is 29 who I’d imagine you’d recognise.

You can see why we perhaps aren’t taking your views on our list that seriously if you’re putting forward posts like this.

I saw the game but didnt know the player. He dropped a sitter and Rachele was next to him. It may have been #38. But it waa a Crows player

 

[Soggy2112]

I saw the game but didnt know the player. He dropped a sitter and Rachele was next to him. It may have been #38. But it waa a Crows player

Sholl is 38, I’m guessing then that you’re referring to his dropped chest mark in the first quarter last week.

Nick Murray and Lachlan Sholl got not be more different in terms of appearance.

The fact that you didn’t know that a) Murray hasn’t played for a year, and b) isn’t a skinny winger, suggests your opinions on him as a footballer aren’t all that valid.

 

[Soggy2112]

Surely we are due another list of Crows players who are so much better than the Hawks players.

It’s been a while.

Hawthorn are in far better shape than we are because you have a strong football department.

I don’t think there is that big of a gap in terms of our list.

Happy for you to share what you feel is your core group for the future so that we can discuss it.

 

[Purple7x08_24]

Sholl is 38, I’m guessing then that you’re referring to his dropped chest mark in the first quarter last week.

Nick Murray and Lachlan Sholl got not be more different in terms of appearance.

The fact that you didn’t know that a) Murray hasn’t played for a year, and b) isn’t a skinny winger, suggests your opinions on him as a footballer aren’t all that valid.

I was going by memory on a playrr number. Looked like an 8 hence why I suggested Murray at 28.

 

[Soggy2112]

I was going by memory on a playrr number. Looked like an 8 hence why I suggested Murray at 28.

So yeah, maybe don’t weigh in with your opinions on certain players if you haven’t even done a quick google search to know that they are injured.

He’s played 46 games of AFL footy as a key position player, including 3 against your side.

It’s frustrating as a supporter paying very close attention, being told our views on certain players are wrong by people who clearly have not paid a lot of attention.

 

[HairyO]

Hawthorn are in far better shape than we are because you have a strong football department.

I don’t think there is that big of a gap in terms of our list.

Happy for you to share what you feel is your core group for the future so that we can discuss it.

Our 22 and under (at the start of the season) players who are/will be a part of our core group:
Jai Newcombe (22)
Will Day (22)
Jack Ginnivan (21)
Massimo D'Ambrosio (20)
Connor Macdonald (20)
Josh Weddle (19)
Nick Watson (18)
Will McCabe (18)
Calsher Dear (18)

Half our best 22 next year will be 23 and under.

Players who may:
Finn Maginness (22)
Denver Grainger-Barras (21)
Seamus Mitchell (21)
Josh Ward (20)

Players too early to tell, or unlikely:
Cooper Stephens (22)
Jai Serong (20)
Sam Butler (20)
Max Ramsden (20)
Cam Mackenzie (19)
Henry Hustwaite (19)
Bailey Macdonald (19)
Jack O’Sullivan (19)
Josh Bennetts (19)
Clay Tucker (19)
Bodie Ryan (18)

Next year we may have only 2 players who are 30 or older.

 

[Purple7x08_24]

So yeah, maybe don’t weigh in with your opinions on certain players if you haven’t even done a quick google search to know that they are injured.

He’s played 46 games of AFL footy as a key position player, including 3 against your side.

It’s frustrating as a supporter paying very close attention, being told our views on certain players are wrong by people who clearly have not paid a lot of attention.

Yeah nah, I can and will give my opinions. Its a discussion forum.

The consensus with "experts" and the opposition fans is Adelaides depth and youth is very poor. Hawks and North are miles ahead in terms of their youth. To suggest otherwise is crazy

 

[Soggy2112]

Yeah nah, I can and will give my opinions. Its a discussion forum.

The consensus with "experts" and the opposition fans is Adelaides depth and youth is very poor. Hawks and North are miles ahead in terms of their youth. To suggest otherwise is crazy

I’m not saying don’t be a part of the discussion.

But what you’ve done is the equivalent of if I made a judgement on Freo’s young key forward depth while not knowing who Jye Amiss is. It’s not exactly an informed opinion.

And is that the consensus?

Before the season large sections of the media were predicting as to rise up the ladder, and that we were one of the teams to watch. A bad first half of the year and all of a sudden there’s no talent on the list? That just shows that a lot of footy media is very reactionary and a topic like this calls for people to look a bit deeper.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Hawthorn are in far better shape than we are because you have a strong football department.

I don’t think there is that big of a gap in terms of our list.

Happy for you to share what you feel is your core group for the future so that we can discuss it.

I assume you are referencing your list management team when mentioning the football dept.

 

[Soggy2112]

Our 22 and under (at the start of the season) players who are/will be a part of our core group:
Jai Newcombe (22)
Will Day (22)
Jack Ginnivan (21)
Massimo D'Ambrosio (20)
Connor Macdonald (20)
Josh Weddle (19)
Nick Watson (18)
Will McCabe (18)
Calsher Dear (18)

Half our best 22 next year will be 23 and under.

Players who may:
Finn Maginness (22)
Denver Grainger-Barras (21)
Seamus Mitchell (21)
Josh Ward (20)

Players too early to tell, or unlikely:
Cooper Stephens (22)
Jai Serong (20)
Sam Butler (20)
Max Ramsden (20)
Cam Mackenzie (19)
Henry Hustwaite (19)
Bailey Macdonald (19)
Jack O’Sullivan (19)
Josh Bennetts (19)
Clay Tucker (19)
Bodie Ryan (18)

Next year we may have only 2 players who are 30 or older.

How come you don’t include players like Lewis, Moore, Jiath, Meek in your core?

I get they’re not “young” but I think it doesn’t make sense to make the cut off 22 when those guys will definitely be a part of your next finals/contending side if your current build goes to plan?

 

[Soggy2112]

I assume you are referencing your list management team when mentioning the football dept.

More referring to the coaches/development systems.

There’s been some big misses in terms of the draft, however our list management of the past 4-5 years has actually been fairly reasonable. We’ve paid overs on a few contracts like Laird and O’Brien, however we’ve been able to re-sign key talent, brought in a couple A-graders in Dawson and Rankine, and been able to get some quality players cheaply, e.g. Keane and Murray.

 

[nelk boys]

Hawthorn are in far better shape than we are because you have a strong football department.

I don’t think there is that big of a gap in terms of our list.

Happy for you to share what you feel is your core group for the future so that we can discuss it.

The core looks to be:
Day, Newcombe, Moore, Scrimshaw, Weddle, Watson, Dear, Mackenzie, Lewis, Nash.

A tier below:
McDonald, Meek, Jiath, Ginnivan, Massimo, Mitchell, Worpel

Older generation:
Sicily, Amon, Impey, Hardwick, Chol, Wingard.

Question mark: on Will McCabe, very promising from his pre season before injury. Blanck, our first choice key defender of 2024, who did an ACL earlier in the year. Josh Ward, he is building his contested game in the VFL, I think he will eventually succeed Worpel.

The acquisitions of Smith, Battle, Perryman will push a few players out and really add to the depth. The most impressive part is we don't rely on one or two players heavily. Even without Lewis, our first choice key forward, we have managed to win. None of the players mentioned above are 30 yet either apart from Wingard, our trajectory is clear.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Before the season large sections of the media were predicting as to rise up the ladder, and that we were one of the teams to watch. A bad first half of the year and all of a sudden there’s no talent on the list? That just shows that a lot of footy media is very reactionary and a topic like this calls for people to look a bit deeper.

Those sections of the media clearly didn’t understand how reliant Crows were on Walker, Dawson and Laird in 2023.
David King is looking more and more correct when stating last year that he was worried that 2023 just might have been the Crows at their peak while Tex was still flying.

Those 3 players having lesser games and there’s not enough developing high end talent around them to go on with it.

You’d have all your extremities crossed that Thilthorpe comes on and becomes a star, but you seriously need some top end talent coming through the middle because it’s a necessity in todays footy.

 

[HairyO]

How come you don’t include players like Lewis, Moore, Jiath, Meek in your core?

I get they’re not “young” but I think it doesn’t make sense to make the cut off 22 when those guys will definitely be a part of your next finals/contending side if your current build goes to plan?

Because this is a thread about youth. I listed the players 22 and under who I think are very good or will be very good, the average, and the ones who likely wont make it.

Im not sure anyone could question the 8 very good players I listed, plus McCabe is an unknown but I suspect could end up being a very good player.

 

[Soggy2112]

The core looks to be:
Day, Newcombe, Moore, Scrimshaw, Weddle, Watson, Dear, Mackenzie, Lewis, Nash.

A tier below:
McDonald, Meek, Jiath, Ginnivan, Massimo, Mitchell, Worpel

Older generation:
Sicily, Amon, Impey, Hardwick, Chol, Wingard.

Question mark: on Will McCabe, very promising from his pre season before injury. Blanck, our first choice key defender of 2024, who did an ACL earlier in the year. Josh Ward, he is building his contested game in the VFL, I think he will eventually succeed Worpel.

The acquisitions of Smith, Battle, Perryman will push a few players out and really add to the depth. The most impressive part is we don't rely on one or two players heavily. Even without Lewis, our first choice key forward, we have managed to win. None of the players mentioned above are 30 yet either apart from Wingard, our trajectory is clear.

As a comparison:

Day vs Dawson - Dawson obviously a better player currently but older, hard to know who ends up better so fair to call it even.

Soligo vs Newcombe - Similar players in that they’re inside focussed. Numbers this year are quite comparable, although Newcombe has more runs on the board (is older though). Give that one to Newcombe just.

Moore vs Rachele - Moore obviously better but older, similar to Day vs Dawson, call it even.

Lewis vs Fogarty - clear win to Lewis

Thilthorpe vs Dear - I still think it’s silly to compare after 6 games a fourth round pick who has been solid, to a 2nd pick who is tracking nicely, and has shown the ability to dominate games of AFL football. Don’t want to start the argument hear but that’s a win to Thilthorpe.

Watson vs Rankine - call it a draw as we don’t yet have enough of a sample size to judge Watson.

Scrimshaw vs Michalanney - fairly even

Weddle vs Worrell - ditto

Mackenzie and Nash don’t really have a fair comparison to Keane, Nankervis, and Murray.

So I would agree the Hawks are slightly ahead at this point, but I really don’t think the margin is that great.

Because this is a thread about youth. I listed the players 22 and under who I think are very good or will be very good, the average, and the ones who likely wont make it.

Im not sure anyone could question the 8 very good players I listed, plus McCabe is an unknown but I suspect could end up being a very good player.

Thread is 4 years old though, no longer makes sense to discount players under 22 given both clubs would be planning on contending within 3-4 years.

 

[HairyO]

As a comparison:

Day vs Dawson - Dawson obviously a better player currently but older, hard to know who ends up better so fair to call it even.

Soligo vs Newcombe - Similar players in that they’re inside focussed. Numbers this year are quite comparable, although Newcombe has more runs on the board (is older though). Give that one to Newcombe just.

Moore vs Rachele - Moore obviously better but older, similar to Day vs Dawson, call it even.

Lewis vs Fogarty - clear win to Lewis

Thilthorpe vs Dear - I still think it’s silly to compare after 6 games a fourth round pick who has been solid, to a 2nd pick who is tracking nicely, and has shown the ability to dominate games of AFL football. Don’t want to start the argument hear but that’s a win to Thilthorpe.

Watson vs Rankine - call it a draw as we don’t yet have enough of a sample size to judge Watson.

Scrimshaw vs Michalanney - fairly even

Weddle vs Worrell - ditto

Mackenzie and Nash don’t really have a fair comparison to Keane, Nankervis, and Murray.

So I would agree the Hawks are slightly ahead at this point, but I really don’t think the margin is that great.




Thread is 4 years old though, no longer makes sense to discount players under 22 given both clubs would be planning on contending within 3-4 years.

Crows may be 3 or 4 years away. Hawks are planning on contending next year.

 

[Soggy2112]

Crows may be 3 or 4 years away. Hawks are planning on contending next year.

Given the experience and age of the players listed as your “core” I would think 2-3 years is a much more realistic time frame.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Crows may be 3 or 4 years away. Hawks are planning on contending next year.

Planning?

 

[xmarksthespot]

Planning?

Haven't you heard? We're tanking this year!

 

[Sizzlesilk]

Who are the not A graders?

Rankine and Dawson are there already.

Michalanney, Murray, Soligo, Rachele, Thilthorpe all definitely have shown the potential to be A graders.


Most uncompetitive is a big stretch. They’ve won 2 games and lost 7, only one of those being a genuine blow out. They’re not performing that badly considering the injuries to Thilthorpe, Himmelberg, Murray, Worrell, Walker across the season. If you take out that many key position players of the list and replace them with the top ups us and Port have to use in the SANFL and you’re unlikely to win.

I do agree though we are wasting him at full back but he’s far from forgotten.



Wasn’t selected is also just untrue. He has played one SANFL game since his ACL (was dominant in that game btw). Not sure how many players have returned to the league side first game back after a year out but okay.

Depends what you call A graders I guess. It’s a very flimsy term tossed around by AFC supporters.

Dawson yes.
Rankine yes.

Potential - Max

Murray post ACL.. you’d need a fair body of work to get back to a level of Moore, May, Taylor, Wilkie, Andrews, Payne etc etc
To spruik “A” is fanciful until he’s successfully returned.

Ditto Tilthorpe. Will need to do more than just have a “track watchers” awesome preseason to be an A grader. I saw nothing in 2023 that suggested the number 2 pick was ready to rip the comp apart.

Soligo.. a draft Smokey midfielder under 30 that’s playing in your ageing midfield that has shown promise. He’s a country mile after 50 games behind Daicos, JHF and the current top picks from 2022 & 2023 playing senior footy who are tracking at a superior rate.

I hate to break it to you but nearly every other club has a Soligo… many teams multiple ones …. And the same goes for all the other named players. You’ve got nothing special. Your performance has proved this… and the performance of the B grade side backs it up.

Adelaide’s SANFL side is the worst one that’s ever been in the comp. Adelaide has always been borderline top 5 if not higher. They’ve had some depth in the past. Not now. Every side has injuries.

Ran over South(every tipsters bottom side for 2024)in rd 1 in 35 degrees… South now reversed that result and a win v Port.
Adelaide have an appalling lack of depth.

And finally N Murray played the last 2 matches in the SANFL. Not one. If you want to be pedantic… get it right.

 

[Sizzlesilk]

As a comparison:

Day vs Dawson - Dawson obviously a better player currently but older, hard to know who ends up better so fair to call it even.

Soligo vs Newcombe - Similar players in that they’re inside focussed. Numbers this year are quite comparable, although Newcombe has more runs on the board (is older though). Give that one to Newcombe just.

Moore vs Rachele - Moore obviously better but older, similar to Day vs Dawson, call it even.

Lewis vs Fogarty - clear win to Lewis

Thilthorpe vs Dear - I still think it’s silly to compare after 6 games a fourth round pick who has been solid, to a 2nd pick who is tracking nicely, and has shown the ability to dominate games of AFL football. Don’t want to start the argument hear but that’s a win to Thilthorpe.

Watson vs Rankine - call it a draw as we don’t yet have enough of a sample size to judge Watson.

Scrimshaw vs Michalanney - fairly even

Weddle vs Worrell - ditto

Mackenzie and Nash don’t really have a fair comparison to Keane, Nankervis, and Murray.

So I would agree the Hawks are slightly ahead at this point, but I really don’t think the margin is that great.




Thread is 4 years old though, no longer makes sense to discount players under 22 given both clubs would be planning on contending within 3-4 years.

Moore v Rachele…. “Let’s call it even” hahahahahahaha oh lord.
The delusion.

You’re saying Rachele is having a similar impactful season as Dylan Moore is that right?

The parameters keep moving. Current stats… past stats… “ceilings”….

Age parameter keeps changing.

 

[Blackhawk42]

As a comparison:

Day vs Dawson - Dawson obviously a better player currently but older, hard to know who ends up better so fair to call it even.

Soligo vs Newcombe - Similar players in that they’re inside focussed. Numbers this year are quite comparable, although Newcombe has more runs on the board (is older though). Give that one to Newcombe just.

Moore vs Rachele - Moore obviously better but older, similar to Day vs Dawson, call it even.

Lewis vs Fogarty - clear win to Lewis

Thilthorpe vs Dear - I still think it’s silly to compare after 6 games a fourth round pick who has been solid, to a 2nd pick who is tracking nicely, and has shown the ability to dominate games of AFL football. Don’t want to start the argument hear but that’s a win to Thilthorpe.

Watson vs Rankine - call it a draw as we don’t yet have enough of a sample size to judge Watson.

Scrimshaw vs Michalanney - fairly even

Weddle vs Worrell - ditto

Mackenzie and Nash don’t really have a fair comparison to Keane, Nankervis, and Murray.

So I would agree the Hawks are slightly ahead at this point, but I really don’t think the margin is that great.




Thread is 4 years old though, no longer makes sense to discount players under 22 given both clubs would be planning on contending within 3-4 years.

I hate being this guy, but I have to address the 'give that one to Newcombe, just'.

Newcombe has won a coaches association young player of the year award.
Under 22 All Australian Vice Captain.
Record for most tackles on debut.
All Australian squad of 40.
Top 20 finish in both the Brownlow and Coaches Association player of the year award.

All of this within the first two and a half years of his career.

Soligio was drafted when Newcombe was only 7 games into his career, so aside from the 'tackles on debut' achievement they've basically had the same timeframe of exposure and development in the AFL.

I like Soligio, but Newcombe is ahead in this comparison and it isn't even close.

Probably revisit this one in a couple of years, would be my advice.