Which team out of Adelaide, North and Hawthorn has the better youth? Part 2

[HeHateMe]

TT hasn't exactly set the world on fire.

He has had some big games over the years here and there. He kicked 5 on debut from memory.

Don't think he has settled into a position, you could argue Dear is projecting as the better forward but player probably not yet. Dear still needs to work on a few things but his strengths are very good.

 

[Soggy2112]

Is thilthorpe injured? Haven’t heard much recently

Yes, tore his meniscus and has had surgery, due back in a month or so I think.

Disappointing as his preseason form suggested he was ready to take the next step, and with Walker playing injured he would have got the opportunities he was denied last year.

 

[Soggy2112]

He has had some big games over the years here and there. He kicked 5 on debut from memory.

Don't think he has settled into a position, you could argue Dear is projecting as the better forward but player probably not yet. Dear still needs to work on a few things but his strengths are very good.

You absolutely could not argue that Dear is projecting better than Thilthorpe. Numbers are well below Thilthorpe’s first year numbers.

Worth remembering that Thilthorpe in his first year had the following games:

Round 6 vs Hawthorn: 10 kicks, 6 handballs, 5 marks, 5 goals, 1 assist.

Round 13 vs St Kilda: 12 kicks, 4 handballs, 2 marks, 3 goals, 6 score involvements (in the pouring rain, including a game winning goal).

Round 23 vs North: 9 kicks, 9 handballs, 4 marks, 1 goal, 11 score involvements.

Dear has not had a game close to any of those, and he’s largely been playing in a winning team so far.

Thilthorpe is performing at a very similar rate to JUH and McDonald, and has done so with limited opportunities, whereas JUH is often their main target.

TT has not got a settled position yet because he is very effective in both. That’s hardly a bad thing. Last year he consistently played our lowest TOG, and was rarely targeted inside 50, primarily he was used between the arcs. This was because Nicks was coaching to win now, and Walker was in such strong form. At that time a lot of us had concerns that we were stealing from our future, hopefully when TT returns we will put him deep forward more and target him more.

Side note, not sure I’d you’ve seen but he’s clearly used his rehab to build some upper body strength. As long as the knee hasn’t taken too much athleticism from him then look out.

 

[Sizzlesilk]

Oh no, Himmelberg wants to leave, I’m devastated.

Happy to see him go for a bag of chips, he’s shit.

Isn’t it a concern you can’t even keep the spuds when key position talent between 22 & 30 is so dearly lacking?
Fog… TT… then who? He was playing in front of Gollant… well Borlase as an unwanted defender is playing up forward in front of Gollant.

Take your bag of chippies sure… and run with…????..instead.

 

[Sizzlesilk]

You absolutely could not argue that Dear is projecting better than Thilthorpe. Numbers are well below Thilthorpe’s first year numbers.

Worth remembering that Thilthorpe in his first year had the following games:

Round 6 vs Hawthorn: 10 kicks, 6 handballs, 5 marks, 5 goals, 1 assist.

Round 13 vs St Kilda: 12 kicks, 4 handballs, 2 marks, 3 goals, 6 score involvements (in the pouring rain, including a game winning goal).

Round 23 vs North: 9 kicks, 9 handballs, 4 marks, 1 goal, 11 score involvements.

Dear has not had a game close to any of those, and he’s largely been playing in a winning team so far.

Thilthorpe is performing at a very similar rate to JUH and McDonald, and has done so with limited opportunities, whereas JUH is often their main target.

TT has not got a settled position yet because he is very effective in both. That’s hardly a bad thing. Last year he consistently played our lowest TOG, and was rarely targeted inside 50, primarily he was used between the arcs. This was because Nicks was coaching to win now, and Walker was in such strong form. At that time a lot of us had concerns that we were stealing from our future, hopefully when TT returns we will put him deep forward more and target him more.

Side note, not sure I’d you’ve seen but he’s clearly used his rehab to build some upper body strength. As long as the knee hasn’t taken too much athleticism from him then look out.

Tilthorpe was tracking about as well as Koschitzke in year 1. Kosi a better mark, DE and pressure forward. And in the game Rd 6 2021 Kosi was the selection for rising star.
Not sure his first year was anything to be spruiking. Has shown little since.

Like wins that Crows supporters count on paper… maybe the guy now 4 years into the system needs to show something in matches before Adel supporters spruik another player as the “next big thing”.

 

[HeHateMe]

You absolutely could not argue that Dear is projecting better than Thilthorpe. Numbers are well below Thilthorpe’s first year numbers.

Worth remembering that Thilthorpe in his first year had the following games:

Round 6 vs Hawthorn: 10 kicks, 6 handballs, 5 marks, 5 goals, 1 assist.

Round 13 vs St Kilda: 12 kicks, 4 handballs, 2 marks, 3 goals, 6 score involvements (in the pouring rain, including a game winning goal).

Round 23 vs North: 9 kicks, 9 handballs, 4 marks, 1 goal, 11 score involvements.

Dear has not had a game close to any of those, and he’s largely been playing in a winning team so far.

Thilthorpe is performing at a very similar rate to JUH and McDonald, and has done so with limited opportunities, whereas JUH is often their main target.

TT has not got a settled position yet because he is very effective in both. That’s hardly a bad thing. Last year he consistently played our lowest TOG, and was rarely targeted inside 50, primarily he was used between the arcs. This was because Nicks was coaching to win now, and Walker was in such strong form. At that time a lot of us had concerns that we were stealing from our future, hopefully when TT returns we will put him deep forward more and target him more.

Side note, not sure I’d you’ve seen but he’s clearly used his rehab to build some upper body strength. As long as the knee hasn’t taken too much athleticism from him then look out.

Dear is in his infancy, TT is a few years in and not yet settled on where he is best suited (which is a credit to his versatility but also due to him not always looking completely at home as a fwd.) you make some good points on why this might change in the near future.

Also by 'fwd' I wasn't referring to a key, just a fwd in general, Dears strengths are his leading, presenting and strong marking but also his pressure and repeat efforts. Don't get my comment confused with me not rating TT.

 

[Blackhawk42]

Not sure about Thrillthorpe, but Calsh is developing incredibly well by comparison to a former number 1 draft pick playing the same position...

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Yes he has been impressive but be reasonable, he hasn’t shown anywhere near as much as Thilthorpe.

I don’t know about talent wise because I think talent wise it’s reasonable, but in terms of production, not yet.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

Not sure about Thrillthorpe, but Calsh is developing incredibly well by comparison to a former number 1 draft pick playing the same position...

View attachment 2015993

More Marks, Contested Marks, Marks inside 50 and only 0.1 less goals per games in half the matches.

 

[Soggy2112]

Isn’t it a concern you can’t even keep the spuds when key position talent between 22 & 30 is so dearly lacking?
Fog… TT… then who? He was playing in front of Gollant… well Borlase as an unwanted defender is playing up forward in front of Gollant.

Take your bag of chillies sure… and run with…..instead.

A) we did keep him.

B) he doesn’t get a game unless there are injuries.

C) What lack of key position talent? I and a lot of Crows posters have said for a long time that although we expected to be better this year, that ultimately we’re building for around 26/27. At that point we will have Thilthorpe (24), Fogarty (27), Murray (26), Worrell (25), Keane (26), Butts (27).

So no, I’m not concerned.

I’ve said for a long time that I’m impressed by Mitchell and what he’s doing at the Hawks, but some posters in here need to remember the old saying, it’s never as good, or as bad as it seems.

Also, people forget that we currently have Worrell, Murray and Thilthorpe on the long term injury list and Walker was out on Thursday as well. So yeah you are gonna see some less than ideal selection moves with our KPPs.

Tilthorpe was tracking about as well as Koschitzke in year 1. Kosi a better mark, DE and pressure forward. And in the game Rd 6 2021 Kosi was the selection for rising star.
Not sure his first year was anything to be spruiking. Has shown little since.

Like wins that Crows supporters count on paper… maybe the guy now 4 years into the system needs to show something in matches before Adel supporters spruik another player as the “next big thing”.

Pretty hard for him to show anything in his fourth year when he’s in the rehab room.

He was showing plenty in games last year. He hasn’t put up huge numbers because of the lack of opportunities he gets. As I said, his TOG was extremely low and he was rarely targeted inside 50 because of our focus on Walker. Even still, he still put up pretty comparable numbers to JUH and McDonald.

It’s not a coincidence that the one game that TT played last year that Walker didn’t he was dominant in.

 

[Soggy2112]

Not sure about Thrillthorpe, but Calsh is developing incredibly well by comparison to a former number 1 draft pick playing the same position...

View attachment 2015993

I do like Dear, I just haven’t seen anything from him yet to put him up with Thilthorpe.

Tall forwards are never going to be consistent early on, especially one with as little opportunities as Thilthorpe.

You need to look for what is their ceiling. We have seen a lot of really high ceiling games from Thilthorpe, a couple of them within his first 10 games, as well as a lot of individual moments that show he is an elite talent.

We haven’t seen a big ceiling game from Dear so far. Until that happens he isn’t up at TT’s level.

 

[Blackhawk42]

I do like Dear, I just haven’t seen anything from him yet to put him up with Thilthorpe.

Tall forwards are never going to be consistent early on, especially one with as little opportunities as Thilthorpe.

You need to look for what is their ceiling. We have seen a lot of really high ceiling games from Thilthorpe, a couple of them within his first 10 games, as well as a lot of individual moments that show he is an elite talent.

We haven’t seen a big ceiling game from Dear so far. Until that happens he isn’t up at TT’s level.

Yeah I'm not ready to make anything close to that call re: Thillthorp vs Dear.

The Dear vs Cadman debate is an early one I wasn't expecting though. Calsh stacking up very nicely.

 

[theiaofseed]

I do like Dear, I just haven’t seen anything from him yet to put him up with Thilthorpe.

Tall forwards are never going to be consistent early on, especially one with as little opportunities as Thilthorpe.

You need to look for what is their ceiling. We have seen a lot of really high ceiling games from Thilthorpe, a couple of them within his first 10 games, as well as a lot of individual moments that show he is an elite talent.

We haven’t seen a big ceiling game from Dear so far. Until that happens he isn’t up at TT’s level.

A lot? HUh? He's only kicked 3+ goals on 3 occasions in his entire career. The fact you can even compare a 4th year former pick 2 to a first year 4th round pick says every bit how disappointing Thilthorpe has been.

 

[Sizzlesilk]

A lot? HUh? He's only kicked 3+ goals on 3 occasions in his entire career. The fact you can even compare a 4th year former pick 2 to a first year 4th round pick says every bit how disappointing Thilthorpe has been.

View attachment 2016235

And if you use TT’s first year v Calshers…
Calsher averages 1.2 to 1.3.
Calsher though a better mark, contested mark & his forward pressure statistically is double anything TT put out in his first year.

 

[Sizzlesilk]

A) we did keep him.

B) he doesn’t get a game unless there are injuries.

C) What lack of key position talent? I and a lot of Crows posters have said for a long time that although we expected to be better this year, that ultimately we’re building for around 26/27. At that point we will have Thilthorpe (24), Fogarty (27), Murray (26), Worrell (25), Keane (26), Butts (27).

So no, I’m not concerned.

I’ve said for a long time that I’m impressed by Mitchell and what he’s doing at the Hawks, but some posters in here need to remember the old saying, it’s never as good, or as bad as it seems.

Also, people forget that we currently have Worrell, Murray and Thilthorpe on the long term injury list and Walker was out on Thursday as well. So yeah you are gonna see some less than ideal selection moves with our KPPs.


Pretty hard for him to show anything in his fourth year when he’s in the rehab room.

He was showing plenty in games last year. He hasn’t put up huge numbers because of the lack of opportunities he gets. As I said, his TOG was extremely low and he was rarely targeted inside 50 because of our focus on Walker. Even still, he still put up pretty comparable numbers to JUH and McDonald.

It’s not a coincidence that the one game that TT played last year that Walker didn’t he was dominant in.

Kept cos he was contracted.
Keeping him… is a different thing.

Worrell, Murray, Keane, Butts are not key forwards.
You’ve got some defenders.
Forwards… cupboard after Tex is thin.
It’s Fog… TT then Himmelberg and Gollant.
That’s ugly.

 

[Soggy2112]

A lot? HUh? He's only kicked 3+ goals on 3 occasions in his entire career. The fact you can even compare a 4th year former pick 2 to a first year 4th round pick says every bit how disappointing Thilthorpe has been.

View attachment 2016235

Tell me you don’t watch the games without telling me you don’t watch the games. He played very low TOG%, he plays fairly high up the ground and spends a lot of time in the ruck, it’s no surprise that he doesn’t kick bags regularly. However, he did have one game without Walker where he played more forward and kicked 5.

He has fairly frequently had the most contested marks in a game, and had multiple instances of taking 5 or more.

Again, what has been Dear’s high ceiling games? Because I can list off plenty for Thilthorpe.

Kept cos he was contracted.
Keeping him… is a different thing.

Worrell, Murray, Keane, Butts are not key forwards.
You’ve got some defenders.
Forwards… cupboard after Tex is thin.
It’s Fog… TT then Himmelberg and Gollant.
That’s ugly.

If you think a cupboard with Thilthorpe and Fogarty is bare then you need to lower your standards.

Mitch Lewis is a great footballer.

Dear has shown promise but has not really shown enough for you to celebrate him the way you guys are.

 

[Soggy2112]

And if you use TT’s first year v Calshers…
Calsher averages 1.2 to 1.3.
Calsher though a better mark, contested mark & his forward pressure statistically is double anything TT put out in his first year.

On what basis is he a better mark?

 

[theiaofseed]

On what basis is he a better mark?

The one were he takes more marks, more marks inside and more contested marks probably would be a start.

 

[theiaofseed]

Tell me you don’t watch the games without telling me you don’t watch the games. He played very low TOG%, he plays fairly high up the ground and spends a lot of time in the ruck, it’s no surprise that he doesn’t kick bags regularly. However, he did have one game without Walker where he played more forward and kicked 5.

He has fairly frequently had the most contested marks in a game, and had multiple instances of taking 5 or more.

Again, what has been Dear’s high ceiling games? Because I can list off plenty for Thilthorpe.



If you think a cupboard with Thilthorpe and Fogarty is bare then you need to lower your standards.

Mitch Lewis is a great footballer.

Dear has shown promise but has not really shown enough for you to celebrate him the way you guys are.

Thilithorpe averaged 81% game time in his first year. Dear averages 65%
Thilithorpe averages a whopping 1.3 hitouts per game, so much for spending a lot of time in the ruck.

If you want to say someone doesnt know what theyre talking about you better make sure, you know what youre talking about.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Hawks are playing well, but it is so Hawks supporters to claim Dear is better than Thilthorpe... though granted he is whilst Riley is injured.

Certainly have moved on from Ramsden quickly.

It's unfortunate that RT was injured pre-season as he looked set of a big year.

Dear look a decent player, but RT will be a gun... as not many 2m players have the mobility of RT.

 

[Sizzlesilk]

On what basis is he a better mark?

On the statistical basis.
Year 1 TT V Year 1 Dear.
Marks, Contested marks and marks inside 50.

 

[Sizzlesilk]

Hawks are playing well, but it is so Hawks supporters to claim Dear is better than Thilthorpe... though granted he is whilst Riley is injured.

Certainly have moved on from Ramsden quickly.

It's unfortunate that RT was injured pre-season as he looked set of a big year.

Dear look a decent player, but RT will be a gun... as not many 2m players have the mobility of RT.

Welcome back.
So good to hear from you again.

The debate in case you’ve been too scared to scroll back too far is Year 1 RT V Year 1 Dear.

Dear slightly down on goals 1.3 v 1.2 but statistically a better mark and brings far more pressure.

Fact.

No one would claim a first year rookie is at the levels of a 4th year much stronger pick 2.

But geez…. He’s tracking as well if not better given his marking ability.

 

[hawkman]

Dear has played 6 games. I wish we would hold off on the comparisons until at least 20 games

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Welcome back.
So good to hear from you again.

The debate in case you’ve been too scared to scroll back too far is Year 1 RT V Year 1 Dear.

Dear slightly down on goals 1.3 v 1.2 but statistically a better mark and brings far more pressure.

Fact.

No one would claim a first year rookie is at the levels of a 4th year much stronger pick 2.

But geez…. He’s tracking as well if not better given his marking ability.

You honestly want to put your reputation on the line with this argument that Dear will be a better player than Thilthorpe.

Go for it!

 

[Sizzlesilk]

You honestly want to put your integrity on the line with this argument that Dear will be a better player than Thilthorpe.

Go for it!

Come back to me in 4 years on that one. He’s tracking way superior.
My view of Adelaide and its players is holding up beautifully in 2024. Yours not so.

How’s that midfield looking?
Peds and Rachele tearing it up yet?

Adelaide B’s are bereft of talent and as an side inept.

Weddle’s rise and your dismissiveness of his ability in 2023…. I really didn’t think you’d ever venture to these here parts ever again.

I’m happy to say Dear is tracking as well as your pick 2 in his first year… yes.