Which team out of Adelaide, North and Hawthorn has the better youth? Part 2

[Sphynx]

Zurhaar and Larkey both top 2 in your goals, averaging 1.6 and 1.9 a game each. They haven’t been “good” but in terms of your side, they’ve been “good”. Definitely in your top handful or so. Which is partially the issue.

McDonald and Corr have had games where they’ve played okay, they definitely aren’t good tho, but again they’re the inconsistent experienced players making life difficult for North.

The issue is the experience, the development and coaching, and spread and depth of youth. The top quality youth and the middle aged players but also consistency and effort has been

I watch a fair amount of footy, try to get all games every weekend and have for a while, also VFL and underage footy.

Again backhanded compliments galore.

You still can’t substantiate any of these long winded posts with anything but your opinion, which seems heavily biased.

 

[Tas]

It is pissing into the wind really, a lot of players look good now but wont necessary take their game to the next level, others who look shithouse will come good. I think Hawks have done a better job to date with what resources they have had available. We have started to look better recently because we have players like Archer, Comben, etc look more like AFL players and Xerri has done a good job replacing Goldy. Phillips wasn't looking great but recently has found a role that has made him look a lot better.

The handicap we have is how little we get out of the mature group, we have the worst senior group by a mile and it is why we have been where we have been for a while. The question is how quickly the next generation can displace them in terms of being reliable and consistent players that provide leadership and direction.

I don't think access to young talent has been our issue, it has been the lack of brick and mortar, most clubs have 10 or so top flight players or aspire to at their peak and the rest are triers and role players of various quality, I think we have the inverse problem to most other clubs, plenty of good young talent, just no foundations to build the side off so it doesn't look good and wont look good until those foundations are established.

Theoretically a lack of good solid players is an easier problem to fix, but unless you can import them in then it will take time to develop them and there are negative consequences to taking too long to improve.

 

[spudmaster]

Hawthorn’s 2nd and 3rd leading goal kickers are new recruits. As is equal 4th if you count Gunston.

Hats off, that’s great recruiting.

Can put that largely down to Lewis and Wingard being too busy playing fortnite to take the field this season.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Again backhanded compliments galore.

You still can’t substantiate any of these long winded posts with anything but your opinion, which seems heavily biased.

What did I say was wrong?

 

[Blackhawk42]

Is it?

North’s best players by every ranking and metric this season, in order:

Sheezel
LDU
Xerri
Wardlaw
Powell
Simpkin
Comben


Who are these mature aged players driving when 2 of the top 4 are 19 year olds?

I'd actually argue that Corr has played his best month of footy for North which happens to coincide with your form reversal.

I did miss the game on the weekend though, so forgive me if he was poor.

 

[Joao]

If you made me choose I'd take North's although it really is guesswork. So hard to predict who's going to come on and who is going to stagnate etc.

 

[Sphynx]

I'd actually argue that Corr has played his best month of footy for North which happens to coincide with your form reversal.

I did miss the game on the weekend though, so forgive me if he was poor.

He had a good few weeks, was diabolical on the weekend and gave up his customary few goals from complete brain fade meltdown free kicks.

Either way, he belongs nowhere near the list you quoted.

Comben is already 10 x the defender he is.

 

[Sphynx]

What did I say was wrong?

It's pretty hard to reason with someone that lists the likes of McDonald and Corr as some of North's better players.

Despite Larkey and Zurhaar's goal tallys, they've also been two of the biggest drop offs from their 2023 seasons.


Simpkin had a big return to form since the bye, but had a shocker on the weekend. His first 8 games of the season were probably his worst in about 4-5 seasons.

Xerri and Comben are North's most improved players this season, Xerri would probably be leading the B&F ahead of Sheezel and LDU in all liklihood.

Add Wardlaw and they are pretty much the core 5 of the best players this season.


You are right, the spread of performances hasn't been good enough this season. That's on the back of a lof of our "senior players" rather than what you are inferring though. I think this sums up the stark differences between the two sides.

North have 4-5 very good players carrying the rest of the side at the minute:

 

[HeHateMe]

Xerri and Comben are North's most improved players this season, Xerri would probably be leading the B&F ahead of Sheezel and LDU in all liklihood.

This what I've been waiting to see, over the years alots been said about the top end talent at north, but I've continued to question the group developing around them. This is why a few years back I was pretty adamant hawks would be okay because we could develop the core of the list better (at that time).

Now we are starting to see the likes of Xerri, Comben starting to come on to complement the Sheezel, Wardlaws that would be good anywhere.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

It's pretty hard to reason with someone that lists the likes of McDonald and Corr as some of North's better players.

Despite Larkey and Zurhaar's goal tallys, they've also been two of the biggest drop offs from their 2023 seasons.


Simpkin had a big return to form since the bye, but had a shocker on the weekend. His first 8 games of the season were probably his worst in about 4-5 seasons.

Xerri and Comben are North's most improved players this season, Xerri would probably be leading the B&F ahead of Sheezel and LDU in all liklihood.

Add Wardlaw and they are pretty much the core 5 of the best players this season.


You are right, the spread of performances hasn't been good enough this season. That's on the back of a lof of our "senior players" rather than what you are inferring though. I think this sums up the stark differences between the two sides.

North have 4-5 very good players carrying the rest of the side at the minute:


View attachment 2036519

You must need to reread what I said, I said McDonald and Corr were the experienced players who were up and down but could put in the odd good performance (coinciding with good team performance).

Yeah they haven’t been as good as they have previously, Larkey especially, but they’ve still been two of your better players and they’re top 2 for goals, pretty comfortably.

Simpkin maybe recency bias but I do remember his Eagles game was great, he’s someone who is pretty inconsistent but also plays out of position at times. He’s still one of the solid and good prime aged players alongside LDU, Xerri, Zurhaar and Larkey.

Again the list would be something like
Sheezel
Xerri
LDU
Wardlaw
Comben
Larkey
Zurhaar
Curtis
Fisher
Tucker

I think the experience has been a problem with consistency and it’s somewhere you’d look to pick up some players. But the spread of youth and depth there is a concern, the top end is really good but the spread/depth isn’t good enough. This is in part with Clarko not giving or trusting players at times too tho. But there’s quite a few who wouldn’t get games at Hawthorn.

Player rating isn’t the only metric but I’d agree that the heavy lifting comes down to a handful, the next 5 are players who can play good games but are inconsistent and the youth outside of that handful aren’t doing enough. This is also an effort thing at times, albeit recent form has been encouraging.

 

[BRider]

McKercher was doing plenty before his injury - as much upside as Sheezel/Wardlaw and is a completely different player, 3 x 30 disposal games before his injury then went back to the VFL to build game fitness and has made that level look effortless.

We have plenty of upside to come into the side. Sooner the McDonalds etc are gone the better.

 

[peetoo]

The lesson from hawthorn is you continue to recruit the best you can via both draft and trade, bu don’t go too much one way or the other, either in a year or overall

Current best 22 is about a third traded in

But 2023 trade and draft?
Trade/mature Chol ginnivan dambrosio and speculative Gunston, Phillips, Skaif
Draft Watson McCabe Dear and speculative Ryan

It’s been very good since the footy dept included Sam Mitchell


None of these were a thing when the thread started

 

[Sphynx]

You must need to reread what I said, I said McDonald and Corr were the experienced players who were up and down but could put in the odd good performance (coinciding with good team performance).

Yeah they haven’t been as good as they have previously, Larkey especially, but they’ve still been two of your better players and they’re top 2 for goals, pretty comfortably.

Simpkin maybe recency bias but I do remember his Eagles game was great, he’s someone who is pretty inconsistent but also plays out of position at times. He’s still one of the solid and good prime aged players alongside LDU, Xerri, Zurhaar and Larkey.

Again the list would be something like
Sheezel
Xerri
LDU
Wardlaw
Comben
Larkey
Zurhaar
Curtis
Fisher
Tucker

I think the experience has been a problem with consistency and it’s somewhere you’d look to pick up some players. But the spread of youth and depth there is a concern, the top end is really good but the spread/depth isn’t good enough. This is in part with Clarko not giving or trusting players at times too tho. But there’s quite a few who wouldn’t get games at Hawthorn.

Player rating isn’t the only metric but I’d agree that the heavy lifting comes down to a handful, the next 5 are players who can play good games but are inconsistent and the youth outside of that handful aren’t doing enough. This is also an effort thing at times, albeit recent form has been encouraging.

The oldest player on even your revised list is Larkey and Zurhaar who both turned 26 a few weeks ago. Half of that list is virtually the same age as Moore, Worpel and Meek who you are including in your "youth" categories.

I fail to see how an even spread of young players is the key problem.


It's the bottom half of that list not performing anywhere near the top half of that list that's the problem.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

The oldest player on even your revised list is Larkey and Zurhaar who both turned 26 a few weeks ago. Half of that list is virtually the same age as Moore, Worpel and Meek who you are including in your "youth" categories.

I fail to see how an even spread of young players is the key problem.


It's the bottom half of that list not performing anywhere near the top half of that list that's the problem.

Tucker is 27.

But the point was a pretty big amount of 26 year olds who were driving performance with the top handful of youth and the odd good game from an experienced player (Corr and McDonald). Which is what I’ve said this entire time.

Your bottom handful of youth isn’t at the standard, they’re not ready or talented enough. This comes down to player talent and football departments ability to develop said talent.

The thing I mentioned was a bunch of the 22 wouldn’t make Hawthorns team, which was again the example that the bottom half of the side isn’t good enough (experience and youth), spread and depth.

Which is exactly what I’ve said.

 

[Sphynx]

Tucker is 27.

But the point was a pretty big amount of 26 year olds who were driving performance with the top handful of youth and the odd good game from an experienced player (Corr and McDonald). Which is what I’ve said this entire time.

Your bottom handful of youth isn’t at the standard, they’re not ready or talented enough. This comes down to player talent and football departments ability to develop said talent.

The thing I mentioned was a bunch of the 22 wouldn’t make Hawthorns team, which was again the example that the bottom half of the side isn’t good enough (experience and youth), spread and depth.

Which is exactly what I’ve said.

I know you keep repeating it, I'm still not going to bite.

It's the same stuff that's been repeated in here on rotation for about 3 years, so well past really caring about.


Generally the bottom handful of every clubs youth isn't to AFL standard.

Just like Ramsden, Ryan, Hustwaite, Serong and Stephens aren't at the moment.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I know you keep repeating it, I'm still not going to bite.

It's the same stuff that's been repeated in here on rotation for about 3 years, so well past really caring about.


Generally the bottom handful of every clubs youth isn't to AFL standard.

Just like Ramsden, Ryan, Hustwaite, Serong and Stephens aren't at the moment.

It’s true hence being repeated.

The difference is Ramsden, Ryan, Hustwaite, Serong and Stephens are not playing for Hawthorn currently. Ryan just drafted, the rest are close bar Stephens and are performing depth at VFL level. North’s bottom handful are playing at the level and aren’t good enough, with only a couple more under 24 from the weekend. But a fair few of those again aren’t getting games at Hawthorn or other clubs.

The key is developing the youth, which has been better this year with improvement from Comben and Xerri. Keep hitting the draft and boosting youth stocks whilst trying to gain some competent consistent experience.

 

[Sphynx]

It’s true hence being repeated.

The difference is Ramsden, Ryan, Hustwaite, Serong and Stephens are not playing for Hawthorn currently. Ryan just drafted, the rest are close bar Stephens and are performing depth at VFL level. North’s bottom handful are playing at the level and aren’t good enough, with only a couple more under 24 from the weekend. But a fair few of those again aren’t getting games at Hawthorn or other clubs.

The key is developing the youth, which has been better this year with improvement from Comben and Xerri. Keep hitting the draft and boosting youth stocks whilst trying to gain some competent consistent experience.

Who are you talking about here?

You are going to have to name names.

The only 3 that fit that age group and description from the weekend are Ford, Archer and Phillips.

You can probably mount a valid argument regarding Phillips, but considering Archer was close to best on ground the weekend before and Ford is developing very well, it would be a strange group to target.

You can't possibly be talking about any of Sheezel, Comben, Curtis or Powell.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Who are you talking about here?

You are going to have to name names.

The only 3 that fit that age group and description from the weekend are Ford, Archer and Phillips.

You can probably mount a valid argument regarding Phillips, but considering Archer was close to best on ground the weekend before and Ford is developing very well, it would be a strange group to target.

You can't possibly be talking about any of Sheezel, Comben, Curtis or Powell.

I don’t rate Ford personally, but that’s me. Love Archer, he has been impressive, and Phillips is someone being ruined by Clarko.

But the group is probably including those 3, not getting games for other clubs, but the not good enough group would be with Taylor, Teakle, Dawson, Pink, Lazzaro and Stephens.

 

[Sphynx]

I don’t rate Ford personally, but that’s me. Love Archer, he has been impressive, and Phillips is someone being ruined by Clarko.

But the group is probably including those 3, not getting games for other clubs, but the not good enough group would be with Taylor, Teakle, Dawson, Pink, Lazzaro and Stephens.

I think we can all agree most of them are kind of irrelevant to long term discussions and have no real relevance to what we will be doing in a few years.

Possibly Dawson aside.

Teakle has been OK though.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

I think we can all agree most of them are kind of irrelevant to long term discussions and have no real relevance to what we will be doing in a few years.

Possibly Dawson aside.

Teakle has been OK though.

That’s just the point of the side currently and why you’re looking worse than you actually are. It’ll come. The top shelf talents are more important to have than the depth and you have that, you’ll build it.

 

[Sphynx]

That’s just the point of the side currently and why you’re looking worse than you actually are. It’ll come. The top shelf talents are more important to have than the depth and you have that, you’ll build it.

Part of it is by design and I go back to your comment regarding the likes of Ramsden and Hustwaite and playing them through the VFL.

The depth is there, it’s just how the club is deciding to develop it.

McKercher probably could have played last week after 30 disposals in 2.5 quarters coming back from injury against Casey. He probably could have been the sub etc instead of Stephens if they wanted to manage game time.

They decided to give him another week through the middle and he had 26 and kicked 2 in under 3 quarters of game time. Im sure he will play this week.

I’m sure the club could just be pumping games into Duursma in a forward pocket in lieu of Taylor, but they are putting midfield minutes into him that he simply won’t get at AFL level at the moment.

Logue is being slowly eased back for the same reason, there’s nothing to gain at the moment until he is absolutely ready to go.

Wardlaw obviously wasn’t on that list when basing it from the weekends game either and is a pretty obviously replacement for Lazaro.

There’s others that will step into the side in the next 12 months, we still have list holes, but most clubs do tbh.

 

[the big lebowski]

Player aged 27+

James Sicily

6

James Sicily

Age

29

Ht

188cm

Wt

90kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.3

5star

K

12.7

5star

HB

5.7

4star

M

6.3

5star

T

1.5

3star

MG

365.0

5star

D

19.4

4star

K

14.3

5star

HB

5.1

3star

M

5.9

5star

T

1.0

2star

MG

437.4

5star

D

10.0

3star

K

6.0

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

4.2

4star

T

2.0

4star

MG

173.8

3star

29 - arguably hawks best player this year

Karl Amon

10

Karl Amon

Age

28

Ht

181cm

Wt

71kg

Pos.

D/M

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.6

4star

K

9.7

4star

HB

6.8

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

2.6

4star

MG

294.5

4star

D

21.0

5star

K

15.0

5star

HB

6.0

3star

M

6.0

5star

T

2.0

3star

D

10.4

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

3.6

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

2.0

4star

MG

146.8

3star

28 - very good player, easily best 23 at north or crows

Jarmen Impey 29 - like Amon has played every game, and performed strongly. Easily best 22 at north or crows

Sam Frost

8

Sam Frost

Age

30

Ht

194cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.4

3star

K

7.1

3star

HB

5.2

4star

M

3.7

4star

T

1.9

4star

MG

191.6

3star

D

10.5

3star

K

6.3

3star

HB

4.3

3star

M

4.0

4star

T

1.5

2star

MG

191.6

3star

D

11.2

3star

K

6.0

3star

HB

5.2

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.4

4star

30 - defensively i’d argue he’s played as well as Ben McKay

32

Ben Mckay

Age

26

Ht

202cm

Wt

104kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.5

2star

K

3.7

1star

HB

3.8

3star

M

2.7

3star

T

1.7

4star

MG

77.2

1star

D

7.5

2star

K

4.5

2star

HB

3.0

2star

M

2.5

3star

T

1.5

2star

MG

88.5

2star

D

7.0

2star

K

3.4

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

2.4

3star

T

2.0

4star

MG

67.8

1star

has this year. Would replace all norths KPD that have played this year other than Comben. Certainly a better player than Corr.

Mabior Chol

18

Mabior Chol

Age

27

Ht

200cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.5

2star

K

5.3

2star

HB

2.2

2star

M

2.3

2star

T

2.7

4star

G

0.8

4star

D

8.0

2star

K

6.0

2star

HB

2.0

1star

M

2.3

2star

T

2.3

3star

G

0.7

4star

D

9.2

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

2.4

3star

M

3.2

4star

T

1.8

4star

G

1.2

4star

27 - great recruit, top 3 goal kicker.

Hardwick 27 - very good player, one of the first picked defenders across all 3 lists. And can play forward.

Gunston/breust - Gunston 4th leading goal kicker. Breust has won you a game or two.

Compared to North

McDonald - most north supporters want him dropped and to play out his career in the vfl. If Goater hadn’t done his Achilles and with archer coming on, this should be the case next year

Corr - not factoring in Logue who hasn’t played. I think he’s our 3rd best KPD, with comben and Dawson infront. Again, most north supporters have our key backs as Logue, comben, Dawson in 2025.

Shiels - not best 22 but playing for educational purposes

Summary

Hawthorn don’t rely on older players. Infact they don’t really rely on any 1 player to be competitive/win.

But in 2024 older players have had a very big, positive impact on results/performance. This is not the case at north.

 

[The Dougster]

Dawson

Has been really impressive when not injured

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

I don’t rate Ford personally, but that’s me. Love Archer, he has been impressive, and Phillips is someone being ruined by Clarko.

But the group is probably including those 3, not getting games for other clubs, but the not good enough group would be with Taylor, Teakle, Dawson, Pink, Lazzaro and Stephens.

With the exception of Lazzaro and Stephens, I won't be disappointed if those guys are getting games this time next year. I do rate Ford, and Archer, Phillips and Taylor are all capable of contributing to a successful team. Teakle, Dawson and Pink - they are stopgaps, one of them might make it as a role player. I'd have my money on Dawson. (Also, most of the guys you mentioned are not really youth.)

On the other hand, I will be disappointed if our four oldest players from Saturday - Tucker, McDonald, Corr and Shiels - are still getting a game next year. I think that was the perplexing thing about your initial assessment - the idea that the experienced guys are driving performance. We're the opposite of a good team - our young guys deliver more consistent performances, and the team benefits when one or more of the older guys has a good one.

 

[Dewyyyyy]

Part of it is by design and I go back to your comment regarding the likes of Ramsden and Hustwaite and playing them through the VFL.

The depth is there, it’s just how the club is deciding to develop it.

McKercher probably could have played last week after 30 disposals in 2.5 quarters coming back from injury against Casey. He probably could have been the sub etc instead of Stephens if they wanted to manage game time.

They decided to give him another week through the middle and he had 26 and kicked 2 in under 3 quarters of game time. Im sure he will play this week.

I’m sure the club could just be pumping games into Duursma in a forward pocket in lieu of Taylor, but they are putting midfield minutes into him that he simply won’t get at AFL level at the moment.

Logue is being slowly eased back for the same reason, there’s nothing to gain at the moment until he is absolutely ready to go.

Wardlaw obviously wasn’t on that list when basing it from the weekends game either and is a pretty obviously replacement for Lazaro.

There’s others that will step into the side in the next 12 months, we still have list holes, but most clubs do tbh.

I think the point for me is I’d rather they pump games into quality youth rather than the others I mentioned, some who don’t deserve it, and you’re not winning so a rotation of players is a good thing. But the core is there it’s just the pieces around it which will come with time and further drafts. It’s just the now is a worry. I also saw the NT academy stuff so that could be a possible talent move.