Which is the best team of the 21st century?

[Cleansweep17]

Then why does Tom Hawkins and Tom Stewart both being 5x AA players rile you up so much?

Nah not me, other tigers supporters sure.

But you just proved my point.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Yeah sorry but what I’m showing is that knowledge enables judgement.

The fact that you think a bunch of blokes running around in yellow and black 60 years before you were born kicking an oval leather ball through a set of posts means jack s**t because you WATCHED footage of it tells me that you are in fact someone who lets emotion cloud your judgement of how they asses facts and history.

You can go with whoever the hell you like.

Essentially disputing that something is of value or consequence because you are too young to have seen it happen is telling the world you’re a simpleton, basically.

Knowledge. Of some guy we don’t have footage of or saw live? You a time traveller?

That’s why defaulted to the AFL panel. They know more than me. Not gonna ask my granny what she thinks like you.

 

[PhatBoy]

Knowledge. Of some guy we don’t have footage of or saw live? You a time traveller?

That’s why defaulted to the AFL panel. They know more than me. Not gonna ask my granny what she thinks like you.

I never saw Khufu in action as a building manager but I’m pretty sure he knew what he was doing based on the what happened at Giza during the construction of the Great Pyramid.

 

[Cleansweep17]

I never saw Khufu in action as a building manager but I’m pretty sure he knew what he was doing based on the what happened at Giza during the construction of the Great Pyramid.

Very true, and you can tell the quality of back then compared to now too.

 

[GoldbergsGold]

For my 4 in no particular order I am going to have to go

Geelong - Hard to go passed them to be honest. Amazing defence, amazing midfield. Only slight knock, and it is only slight is I think there are better forward lines out there, but that is a pretty small knock.

Hawthorn - Amazing forward line, and amazing midfield. Both would be extremely hard to stop. Only small knocks, their rucks division is a little weak and their defence a tiny bit undersized, but a team would need to actually get the ball there in order to exploit that and that would be tough.

Brisbane - A little tougher here I will admit but their forward line consisting of Lynch, Brown, Aker, Brayshaw and so on would be super hard to stop. They may not have the depth of quality in their midfield as a few other clubs but they do have a few stars there. Their defence is very good as well.

West Coast - They have not been so good recently but that best 22 of the 21st century is filled with quality. Amazing midfield, a very strong forward line and a strong defence as well. Not sure how they would do against Geelong's best 22, but I feel like they would give it a crack.

Richmond should have to be ahead of West Coast, because they have more premierships, this century. Sydney, Collingwood and West Coast would be either 5th/6th/7th.

 

[GoldbergsGold]

The Essendon team of 2000 was virtually unbeatable, that season alone puts them up there and while i acknowledge their past 20 years haven't been so good and they should've won at least 3 flags with that team, i cannot place Brisbane or Hawthrorn ahead of them. Their season is incomparable in the modern era, only my team Geelong went close in 2008, but we blew the GF. The difference is Geelong won more flags, won the most H&A games and played more finals. Those who didn't see that Essendon team play are the only ones who will be critical.

Essendon's 2000 premiership is from the 20th century, there's no year 0. Essendon of the 21st century has been one of the worst teams with just 1 grand final appearance in 2001, and no finals wins since 2004. Probably only better than a few other teams like North Melbourne and Carlton, this century.

 

[JackFlash]

A club that hasn't won a final in the last 20 years (85% of the time period in question), are the second best team of the 20th century?

The 2000 Essendon team is one of the best of all time, they nearly went through undefeated, imagine that for a second in modern times , they only fall behind Geelong won a stack of them...

 

[Pavlovs Cat]

Reckon that Cat team needs Ling and Mooney in there at the expense of Blics and Stokes. Mooney never gets any love but the bloke was massive when we were small and crap. Ironically, it's the 'swingman' role that Blics is famous for that made him so valuable, ruck, defence, attack, wherever we were struggling Bomber would throw Mooney in there and more often then not throw the big hairy cat in there and he'd more often than not get the job done I think people tend to remember his silly suspension year of 2006 and his decline more than his peak when his true value shone. I'd even go Wojo instead of Duncan as well. The Thompson/Scott era is far ahead of the late Scott era.

Now to answer your question, it's the Hawks for the flags, and Brisbane for the sheer talent, and the Pies are up there with the Catters.

 

[RUNVS]

Richmond should have to be ahead of West Coast, because they have more premierships, this century. Sydney, Collingwood and West Coast would be either 5th/6th/7th.

I was not expecting this thread to come back but this thread isn't about premierships. The best team could be one that has won zero premierships, it is just the best team composed of players who have played for that team over the 21st century.

Yes Richmond were good for a 5 year stretch of the 21st century but they were also really bad for much of the 21st century too which means fewer players from those eras to draw from.

 

[Handsuper47]

I was not expecting this thread to come back but this thread isn't about premierships. The best team could be one that has won zero premierships, it is just the best team composed of players who have played for that team over the 21st century.

Yes Richmond were good for a 5 year stretch of the 21st century but they were also really bad for much of the 21st century too which means fewer players from those eras to draw from.

what do you define as the best team if not counting for premierships? because I mean Geelong, Sydney and Collingwood have been the most consistent in batting deep in the finals but they are also the most consistent in falling apart in finals

 

[p4p1]

I agree that the Brisbane midfield probably just shades the Hawthorn one, but it is close. Mentioning that the Brisbane team has 4 Brownlow medallists is only minorly relevant IMO, as Hawthorn has 3 themselves. Total Brownlow votes (not just wins) puts the Hawthorn midfield well in front but I still think the Brisbane one is better.

Hawthorns starting mids 571 votes
Brisbane starting mids 661 votes

If you add Hodge (131) on a HBF and T Mitchell (135) on the bench but two of your highest vote getters then add Brisbanes next highest non KP highest vote getters, Aker (107) and Zorko (85) then the Hawks mid votes jump at to 837 while the Lions go to 853. So I’m not sure where you are getting the Hawks mids having more total Brownlow votes from.

However, the Brisbane forward line you mention is quality but nowhere near the Hawthorn one in my opinion. The 6 Brissie guys you've named have won 8 AA's between them and won 1 Coleman. The Hawthorn forward 6 have won 16 AA's (double) and won 5 (5x) Colemans. The Hawthorn 6 have kicked more than 500 goals more than their Brisbane counterparts, despite most of the Brisbane players playing in a much higher scoring era. Someone like Martin Pike wouldn't get anywhere near the Hawthorn forward line.

Pike was a utility and could play anywhere. Before he tore his hamstring in the 02 grand final he was the best player on the ground. You’re underestimating how good he was. In regards to AA selections, VIC teams do get a better ride from the selectors compared to Brisbane historically. Buddy is no doubt better than any forward from Brisbane but Roughead is not and

In defence Hawthorn also have the edge. Brisbane have named Daniel Rich and Jed Adcock on their half back flanks. Hawthorn have Luke Hodge, Shaun Burgoyne and Grant Birchall to choose from. We even had to leave a dual AA HBF'er out of the team (Joel Smith). In short, neither Rich or Adcock would make the Hawthorn side. For the talls, Hawthorn have Lake, Croad, Sicily and Gibson whilst Brisbane have Andrews, Leppitsch, Michael and no one really. Their first 2 are right up there (probably ahead of Hawthorn) but the options fall away fast. I think Michael gets a bit overrated at times given he played in the threepeat- he was never AA and looked awful in a weaker side. All up, the Brisbane defence has 3 players that were all Australian, while all 6 of Hawthorn's were (with another on the bench and another 2 AA's that missed the 22 altogether). In total, the Hawthorn first 6 have 9 AA's to Brisbane's 7 (and 3 Norm Smiths to Brisbane's 0).

Neither Rich or Adcock are making the Lions best team. Akermanis, Lappin, Johnson, Leppitsch, Andrews were all in the AA team as defenders. I’m going to assume you are correct about the Hawks backline having a total of 9AAs between them. Johnson (2), Leppa (3), and Andrews (2) have 7 between them, you can make it 8 if you wanted to add Rich but as I said on a HBF I would go with a guy the guy who was a 4x AA on the HBF with Lappin who played on a back flank in 2 of the Lions premierships.

My summary is that the Brisbane team is very good and right up there and probably has the edge in starting midfield over Hawthorn but the forwards, defence and even the rucks are stronger in the Hawthorn lineup.

So in summary, Brisbane mids are better than Hawthorns, on balance the Lions forwards are better than the Hawks, and the defence is a wash. So you might need to rethink all of this.

 

[Osho]

But ... with all that extra talent Lions could only get a threepeat, the same as the Hawks with less, doesn't that mean the Hawks had the better "team"?

 

[Cleansweep17]

Hawthorns starting mids 571 votes
Brisbane starting mids 661 votes

If you add Hodge (131) on a HBF and T Mitchell (135) on the bench but two of your highest vote getters then add Brisbanes next highest non KP highest vote getters, Aker (107) and Zorko (85) then the Hawks mid votes jump at to 837 while the Lions go to 853. So I’m not sure where you are getting the Hawks mids having more total Brownlow votes from.

Pike was a utility and could play anywhere. Before he tore his hamstring in the 02 grand final he was the best player on the ground. You’re underestimating how good he was. In regards to AA selections, VIC teams do get a better ride from the selectors compared to Brisbane historically. Buddy is no doubt better than any forward from Brisbane but Roughead is not and

Neither Rich or Adcock are making the Lions best team. Akermanis, Lappin, Johnson, Leppitsch, Andrews were all in the AA team as defenders. I’m going to assume you are correct about the Hawks backline having a total of 9AAs between them. Johnson (2), Leppa (3), and Andrews (2) have 7 between them, you can make it 8 if you wanted to add Rich but as I said on a HBF I would go with a guy the guy who was a 4x AA on the HBF with Lappin who played on a back flank in 2 of the Lions premierships.

So in summary, Brisbane mids are better than Hawthorns, on balance the Lions forwards are better than the Hawks, and the defence is a wash. So you might need to rethink all of this.

I don’t think Lions fwds are better than the Hawks at all or richmond for that matter. Give me your starting forward 6 for the Lions.

 

[p4p1]

I don’t think Lions fwds are better than the Hawks at all or richmond for that matter. Give me your starting forward 6 for the Lions.

Of the forwards listed for both sides,
Buddy is obviously the best. Brown is better roughy and anyone else. Roughy is no better than Lynch or Daniher (not listed), Aker is better than any of the Hawks smalls, Cameron has kicked over 100 more goals in about 40 more games than Rioli but I think they’re probably rated about equal because Cyril bought more than just goals, as Charlie does as well. Zorko is better than Williams, the underrated Bradshaw is at worst as good as Gunston but is a better athlete.

 

[PhatBoy]

Of the forwards listed for both sides,
Buddy is obviously the best. Brown is better roughy and anyone else. Roughy is no better than Lynch or Daniher (not listed), Aker is better than any of the Hawks smalls, Cameron has kicked over 100 more goals in about 40 more games than Rioli but I think they’re probably rated about equal because Cyril bought more than just goals, as Charlie does as well. Zorko is better than Williams, the underrated Bradshaw is at worst as good as Gunston but is a better athlete.

lol roughy no better than Daniher?

Lay off the gear mate.

 

[p4p1]

lol roughy no better than Daniher?

Lay off the gear mate.

Same amount of coleman medals, Daniher may do some insane things but he is just as likely to do something brilliant. Daniher has about 200 less goals in 84 less games, meaning there is a pretty similar strike rate.
The media shits on Daniher for whatever reason but he is consistently in our best few players.

 

[PhatBoy]

Same amount of coleman medals, Daniher may do some insane things but he is just as likely to do something brilliant. Daniher has about 200 less goals in 84 less games, meaning there is a pretty similar strike rate.
The media shits on Daniher for whatever reason but he is consistently in our best few players.

I think you’ll find they don’t have the same amount of Coleman medals, as Roughead has one and Daniher doesn’t.
Daniher has played as the main man in every side he has ever lined up in. Roughead spent the first half of his career behind the best key forward of the last 30 years and still managed to hold his own, not to mention sharing goals with Breust and Gunston and to a lesser extent Rioli etc.

Daniher is a decent player and has his moments but he’s not in the same tier as Roughead.

 

[Cleansweep17]

Of the forwards listed for both sides,
Buddy is obviously the best. Brown is better roughy and anyone else. Roughy is no better than Lynch or Daniher (not listed), Aker is better than any of the Hawks smalls, Cameron has kicked over 100 more goals in about 40 more games than Rioli but I think they’re probably rated about equal because Cyril bought more than just goals, as Charlie does as well. Zorko is better than Williams, the underrated Bradshaw is at worst as good as Gunston but is a better athlete.

If you are taking the teams at the time no I don’t believe early 20s Jono brown was better than prime Roughead.

In the small fwd role I’d argue Rioli and Aker were about the same.

My best 6 for Hawks (Hawks supporters can correct me on this) I think would be:

Gunston, Roughhead, Bruest
Rioli, Buddy, Puopulo

I remember at the time Gunston and Breust were deadeyes, Rioli was a freak and Puopolo got every free imaginable.

And obviously Buddy smashes Lynch.

Each to their own I guess

 

[p4p1]

If you are taking the teams at the time no I don’t believe early 20s Jono brown was better than prime Roughead.

In the small fwd role I’d argue Rioli and Aker were about the same.

My best 6 for Hawks (Hawks supporters can correct me on this) I think would be:

Gunston, Roughhead, Bruest
Rioli, Buddy, Puopulo

I remember at the time Gunston and Breust were deadeyes, Rioli was a freak and Puopolo got every free imaginable.

And obviously Buddy smashes Lynch.

Each to their own I guess

The thread is taking the players at their best during the 21st century so that would be prime Brown. Brownys prime was pretty short due to injuries but he was extremely dominant in the mid 00.

For the hawks you would be talking about Crawford in his prime who was a better than the 08 team.

Prime Aker the same as Rioli? Nah prime Aker won a Brownlow and could play anywhere. Aker kicked more goals than Rioli despite playing in the backline earlier in his career and earning an AA spot in the backline and spending a bunch of years as a full time mid. I’m my team I would have him on a wing instead of a HFF and push Lappin to the backline. I was only going off the team listed + Daniher who should be an obvious in IMO.

I can’t remember how Cyril was umpired but I would assume he got a better ride than Charlie Cameron does. Cyril was a freak and can’t miss footy but as I said Cameron has kicked a heap more goals and does offer some of the defensive side that Cyril did but is not as good with that part. Which is why I said it’s probably a break even. One has a better offensive record, the other is better defensively.

The guy that never gets talked about Bradshaw was a dead eye and has kicked more goals than Gunston and slightly less goals than Breust but in less games and spent a good amount of time in the backline as well.

 

[skwunk]

If you are taking the teams at the time no I don’t believe early 20s Jono brown was better than prime Roughead.

In the small fwd role I’d argue Rioli and Aker were about the same.

My best 6 for Hawks (Hawks supporters can correct me on this) I think would be:

Gunston, Roughhead, Bruest
Rioli, Buddy, Puopulo

I remember at the time Gunston and Breust were deadeyes, Rioli was a freak and Puopolo got every free imaginable.

And obviously Buddy smashes Lynch.

Each to their own I guess

Yeah that Hawks forwardline is in the conversation for best ever in my biased opinion. It's also worth mentioning that with that forwardline, Hawthorn went 22-3 for a season with an apparently worse midfield and defense than a Brisbane team that never lost less than 5 games. That Brisbane fan is seriously underrating how good that Hawthorn forwardline was.

Highest scoring teams each grand final year (with how much higher scoring they were than the second highest scoring team)
2001: Essendon
2002: Brisbane by 6.8%
2003: Brisbane by 1.5%
2004: Brisbane by 0.1%

2012: Hawthorn by 10.3%
2013: Hawthorn by 4.7%
2014: Hawthorn by 12.8%
2015: Hawthorn by 5.2%

Hawthorn were easily the highest scoring team in all 4 of their grand final years, Brisbane only lead this comfortably once. I didn't want to compare raw numbers as they are different eras and Hawthorn did get the benefit of beating up on some expansion clubs in those first 2-3 years. But comparing it to the other sides around them, Hawthorn were more potent in attack, and in 2 of these years, a different top 4 side had the best forward of the era.

 

[skwunk]

The thread is taking the players at their best during the 21st century so that would be prime Brown. Brownys prime was pretty short due to injuries but he was extremely dominant in the mid 00.

For the hawks you would be talking about Crawford in his prime who was a better than the 08 team.

Prime Aker the same as Rioli? Nah prime Aker won a Brownlow and could play anywhere. Aker kicked more goals than Rioli despite playing in the backline earlier in his career and earning an AA spot in the backline and spending a bunch of years as a full time mid. I’m my team I would have him on a wing instead of a HFF and push Lappin to the backline. I was only going off the team listed + Daniher who should be an obvious in IMO.

I can’t remember how Cyril was umpired but I would assume he got a better ride than Charlie Cameron does. Cyril was a freak and can’t miss footy but as I said Cameron has kicked a heap more goals and does offer some of the defensive side that Cyril did but is not as good with that part. Which is why I said it’s probably a break even. One has a better offensive record, the other is better defensively.

The guy that never gets talked about Bradshaw was a dead eye and has kicked more goals than Gunston and slightly less goals than Breust but in less games and spent a good amount of time in the backline as well.

Cyril was one of those players who got hold at pretty much every contest he played when he ran through the midfield. Idk if he was particularly hard done by as a lot of the star players get this treatment and I'm obviously biased but he didn't get the greatest run.

I love Charlie Cameron as a player but I really don't think he influences games anywhere near as much as Cyril did in his prime.

Gunston also spent almost a full season in 2017 and half a season in 2019 at half back which is probably worth mentioning. In his best and fairest year when he was possibly playing at his best was 1, a shortened season and 2, had shorter game times and was in probably the worst Hawthorn team since 2005. Under better circumstances that's probably a 60-70 goal season. Both Bradshaw and Gunston lead their side's goalkicking 3 times but Gunston did it in a premiership year in the league's best offense and he has an AA which probably nudges him slightly above if we are just talking accolades.

 

[Cleansweep17]

The thread is taking the players at their best during the 21st century so that would be prime Brown. Brownys prime was pretty short due to injuries but he was extremely dominant in the mid 00.

For the hawks you would be talking about Crawford in his prime who was a better than the 08 team.

Prime Aker the same as Rioli? Nah prime Aker won a Brownlow and could play anywhere. Aker kicked more goals than Rioli despite playing in the backline earlier in his career and earning an AA spot in the backline and spending a bunch of years as a full time mid. I’m my team I would have him on a wing instead of a HFF and push Lappin to the backline. I was only going off the team listed + Daniher who should be an obvious in IMO.

I can’t remember how Cyril was umpired but I would assume he got a better ride than Charlie Cameron does. Cyril was a freak and can’t miss footy but as I said Cameron has kicked a heap more goals and does offer some of the defensive side that Cyril did but is not as good with that part. Which is why I said it’s probably a break even. One has a better offensive record, the other is better defensively.

The guy that never gets talked about Bradshaw was a dead eye and has kicked more goals than Gunston and slightly less goals than Breust but in less games and spent a good amount of time in the backline as well.

So you are making imaginary teams? Idk, you can sort of argue however you want with that.

Like are you putting prime T Mitchell on the hawks 3peat team? He wasn’t there and neither was prime J Brown

 

[GoldbergsGold]

I was not expecting this thread to come back but this thread isn't about premierships. The best team could be one that has won zero premierships, it is just the best team composed of players who have played for that team over the 21st century.

Premiership and a Grand final appearance really defines who is the best, though. They really are the best overall, the best at managing players, the best at connection, the best during the toughest period of the year, etc. Teams who don't win a premiership or don't make a Grand final are forgotten. I don't think many rate failing in finals or missing finals altogether as "the best".

Yes Richmond were good for a 5 year stretch of the 21st century but they were also really bad for much of the 21st century too which means fewer players from those eras to draw from.

A lot of the best teams of 21st century have had long purple patches, though, like Brisbane and Hawthorn. Hawthorn was one of the best teams of the 20th century, and didn't even make a grand final for 37 seasons.

 

[p4p1]

So you are making imaginary teams? Idk, you can sort of argue however you want with that.

Like are you putting prime T Mitchell on the hawks 3peat team? He wasn’t there and neither was prime J Brown

The OP is the one who made the suggestion of a team full of a clubs best 22 players since the start of the century.
He’s on the bench. I didn’t make the teams. Is T Mitchell better than the others named? Or does it throw off the balance?

 

[Cleansweep17]

The OP is the one who made the suggestion of a team full of a clubs best 22 players since the start of the century.
He’s on the bench. I didn’t make the teams. Is T Mitchell better than the others named? Or does it throw off the balance?

Ah I see so it’s not the teams that have actually existed. Which is a little confusing because people are talking about teams that have won flags as well.

Prime Richo in our 17-20 team would’ve been a monster then. If he is eligible for selection.

I think you can find a spot for T Mitchell in his Brownlow year on the field of the Hawks team.