Who will adopt the choker tag?

[Syd]

handed on a platter anyone, your soft joke of a team got it all the way did it not??? Work ethic, more like AFL directive, let's see if they can win it on their own this year and try to earn at least a little respect from the wider footy community....

Posted with apologies in advance to all genuine and level headed Saints fans:




Dear Saintsfan,

Lets see if we can bring this to a level that you can understand.

Your club has been extremely well rewarded for mediocrity through low & priority draft picks.

Your club has received money from the AFL in the past that has also led to your club surviving to this point in time.

Your club a history steeped in losing culture, or to put it more simply for you...

spoons anyone?



I should have remembered the "never argue with an idiot" saying.



PS Say "hi" to bloosports for me

 

[docsaint]

Posted with apologies in advance to all genuine and level headed Saints fans:




Dear Saintsfan,

Lets see if we can bring this to a level that you can understand.

Your club has been extremely well rewarded for mediocrity through low & priority draft picks.

Your club has received money from the AFL in the past that has also led to your club surviving to this point in time.

Your club a history steeped in losing culture, or to put it more simply for you...

spoons anyone?



I should have remembered the "never argue with an idiot" saying.



PS Say "hi" to bloosports for me

a little off topic , but what money have they recieved? I think this has been fully covered in other posts.

 

[Cyclops]

Excuse me but neither Geelong or the Saints have been in enough GF's to qualify. Port? Pfft! Eagles? Pfft! Nobody, NOBODY comes close to the Pies for losing GF's. That title is OURS.

Thank you.

 

[Bestbird]

But, what had Matera actually produced in the last few finals encuonters and against Sydney in particular?

His absence would have been felt less on GF day than Kosi's during the PF.

The others serviceable no doubt, but neither side had any major players off injured or suspended before the day IMHO.

Out of interest, who would be a comparable 4 for Sydney if unaviable for the GF and who would of there replacements been

 

[Handyandy]

Sorry Toots but the Port Adelaide Power have rightly claimed the title of chokers to keep as their own after the unforgettable years of 01,02 & 03.

You forgot the unforgettable years of 04 & 05 Noddy you minature tool owner.

The difference between ports and the crows chokes were that we had the strength to bounce back from dissapointment and win the big one. Also the years we choked brisbane dominated the comp.
By contrast 2005 was incredibly open and given the age of your list the cows will get perhaps one more chance to make up for the embarrasment of 2005.

 

[Bleed Red Cheer]

Out of interest, who would be a comparable 4 for Sydney if unaviable for the GF and who would of there replacements been

P Matera - Matthew Nicks (who owned Matera)
M Braun - Stuart Maxfield
Q Lynch - Stephen Doyle
B Jones - Dunno. I'll give you Jones.

Except we didn't have the luxury of these players being involved to any degree in the regular season.

There were some serious injuries carried into the Grand Final:

Leo Barry: triple cheekbone fracture (knock to the face would have meant emergency surgery).
Barry Hall: AC joint injury (unable to raise left arm the week of the Grand Final), played with painkillers.
Jude Bolton: AC joint injury after dislocating shoulder in Round 19 (has had two painkilling injections every game since).
Adam Schneider: triple cheekbone fracture (knock to the face would have needed surgery).
Ben Mathews: pinched nerve in his foot (had painkilling injections for the past 16 weeks to play).
Craig Bolton: chronic knee injury had painkilling injections for the past 10 weeks to play).
Darren Jolly: broken hand (played on painkillers for four weeks before finals).

Source

As well as a swag of injuries on the day:

Ball: Head wound.
C. Bolton: Shoulder to the nose.
J. Bolton: Head wound.
Crouch: Ankle (tore ankle ligaments at the start of last quarter).
O'Loughlin: Concussion.

Compared with:

Chick: Sore leg.

I don't think the Swans were exactly blessed in 2005.

 

[hotpie]

P Matera - Matthew Nicks (who owned Matera)
M Braun - Stuart Maxfield
Q Lynch - Stephen Doyle
B Jones - Dunno. I'll give you Jones.

I dont think Jones would make the Swans 22.

Braun is the only genuine quality player they missed, and he's definitely a better player than Maxfiled ever was. But with the strength of the WC midfield they should have been able to cover him. At the end of the day two full strength sides played of in the GF and the better team won.

 

[Bleed Red Cheer]

Head to head, Braun and Maxfield compare reasonably well.

Source

 

[Horj]

I dont think Jones would make the Swans 22.

Braun is the only genuine quality player they missed, and he's definitely a better player than Maxfiled ever was. But with the strength of the WC midfield they should have been able to cover him. At the end of the day two full strength sides played of in the GF and the better team won.

I think the chocker tag will only remain with a club as long as the squad remains the same. A club isnt destined to choke, such karma does not attach itself to a name. Choking is a psychological problem where a group of players are afraid to win, afraid to lay it on the line. Notice the teams we choked against had nothing to lose. In 2004 we threw caution to the wind and this was evident in the Prelinary final where the game was there to be one and we snatched it. The Power are (much to my disgust) statistcally the leagues chokers. We choked i dont deny it but we are over it. But in the same breath St Kilda arent far behind and another failed attempt by the crows to transfer a minor premiership into a Flag would put them in the same boat.

 

[Horj]

PS didnt mean to quote hotpie

 

[Syd]

Out of interest, who would be a comparable 4 for Sydney if unaviable for the GF and who would of there replacements been

Off the top of my head, Saddington was showing handy form up forward before re-injuring himself. Whether or not that would have translated into a GF start would have been dependant on form preceding the GF.

An uninjured Doyle would have altered the ruck or forward set up (possibly)

And an uninjured Maxfield would have taken the place of Dempster most likely.

Apart from the above, I doubt that anyone else would have warranted consideration for inclusion.

With Ball and Jolly avalable in the ruck (leaving Goodes free to roam) and our main forwards available I'm not sure if Doyle would have got a look in either.

The injures we sustained were far enough out from the finals to allow us to settle players in and admittedly we probably had the most settled side of any come finals time.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

I don't think the Swans were exactly blessed in 2005.

I do.

As were Adelaide and West Coast.

The St.Kilda Football Club would have all given their left testicles to have that 'injury list' you have posted.

No doubt West Coast missed Braun and Jones on the day - but bad luck. You need the depth to be able to cover 2 mid-tier midfielders.

St.Kilda had the depth to cover the loss of 4-6 top shelfers every single week of the season.

It was when we had to cover the loss of 6-8 top shelfers in a prelim final that it eventually got the better of us.

Sydney were charmed last year. It's a fact. I do not see why Sydney supporters get defensive about it though.

They won the flag. Why worry? The reasons behind winning it to me are irrelevant.

 

[Syd]

At the end of the day two full strength sides played of in the GF and the better team won.

No, no, no hotpie.

"Saintsfan" assures me it was the AFL conspiracy all along.

 

[hotpie]

No, no, no hotpie.

"Saintsfan" assures me it was the AFL conspiracy all along.

StKilda were part of the conspiracy. How else can you explain them giving away Barry Hall?

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

StKilda were part of the conspiracy. How else can you explain them giving away Barry Hall?

He's one that wasn't 'given' away.

Thomas wanted him. He wouldn't stay.

Knobel walked out. He wasn't sacked as the media and fools on here want to believe. It's actually quite an amusing story.

Thomas didn't want him back.

Everitt was 'given' away.


The above are facts.

 

[hotpie]

Everitt's sacking cost StKilda a flag.
So did Hall's departure

Wakelin, Wakelin, Lappin, Lockett - thats a lot of quality that has gone on to play in GF's (or Premierships) at other clubs.

 

[Catfish Jake]

You forgot the unforgettable years of 04 & 05 Noddy you minature tool owner.

The difference between ports and the crows chokes were that we had the strength to bounce back from dissapointment and win the big one. Also the years we choked brisbane dominated the comp.
By contrast 2005 was incredibly open and given the age of your list the cows will get perhaps one more chance to make up for the embarrasment of 2005.

Yes.

I'm sure it was terribly embarrassing for the lads to get beaten by a kick in one of the matches of the season against the Saints, then to thrash Port in a rout, only to lose by two goals to WCE at Subi.

Especially considering this was achieved by a team no one rated (myself included) coached by a man largely believed to be a dud (again, myself included)

/smartarse

Just out of curiosity though, why do you think the Crows as they stand only have one decent year left in them?

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Everitt's sacking cost StKilda a flag.
So did Hall's departure

Wakelin, Wakelin, Lappin, Lockett - thats a lot of quality that has gone on to play in GF's (or Premierships) at other clubs.

No.

Very short sighted.

If Everitt was still on the list, several others wouldn't be. The cap wouldn't allow it.

Add to that, that he a is a cancer that drags failure with him everywhere he goes.

Hall would have been great to keep, as would have the Wakelins. Never been a wrap for Lappin though.

Having Hall and the Wakelins on our list could be argued would have snagged us a flag, but I can't accept the Everitt one. No way.

 

[Syd]

Add to that, that he a is a cancer that drags failure with him everywhere he goes.

Thats way harsh dude.

Hawthorn woulda been crap last year without him as well.

 

[Syd]

Knobel walked out. He wasn't sacked as the media and fools on here want to believe. It's actually quite an amusing story.

Thomas didn't want him back.

Agreed.

He walked away, and Thomas didn't want him.

BUT, if he had been kept he would have been quite handy to have for the PF.




BTW, I was watching this game on video at home last night due to the crap programming ATM on TV. I will be watching the GF again tonight. Strangely, I can't bring myself to watch the Geelong game again just yet. The horrible "sinking" feeling from just before Davo's efforts saved the day, preclude me from getting any enjoyment out of anything but the last few seconds of that game.

 

[Exe Gesis]

I think the chocker tag will only remain with a club as long as the squad remains the same. A club isnt destined to choke, such karma does not attach itself to a name. Choking is a psychological problem where a group of players are afraid to win, afraid to lay it on the line.

It's a weird one. You'd think that what you said would be the case. It's logical. However, there have been some well-known cases of a choker psychology that exists in a sporting club thru decades, thru multiple player lists.

Collingwood for instance, lost about 11 GF's spanning 32 years. Glenelg lost about 13 GF's spanning 30 years. St George NRL team since since 79 have lost about 5 GF's and have choked in the Prelim as many times or more. Oakland Raiders NFL have choked multiple times spanning 30 years in the Conference Championship game (similar to Prelim).

You also find there are teams that no matter what playing list, no matter what great coaches, etc, they implement, there is always a loser mentality/culture in the club. There are a few teams in various sports like that too.

So, not bagging anyone, but I also don't really understand how that happens in a club spanning 20, 30, 50, or 100 years.

 

[saintsrule]

Knobel would never have won us the game. But Kosi just might have!

 

[hotpie]

No.

Very short sighted.

If Everitt was still on the list, several others wouldn't be. The cap wouldn't allow it.

Add to that, that he a is a cancer that drags failure with him everywhere he goes.

Hall would have been great to keep, as would have the Wakelins. Never been a wrap for Lappin though.

Having Hall and the Wakelins on our list could be argued would have snagged us a flag, but I can't accept the Everitt one. No way.

So you agree with me about three of the five players I mentioned, but you dont agree with me. Hmmm, how does that logic work?

Is Everitt and Hall not fitting in the clubs salary cap StKilda's fault? YES. You paid too much for other players - Black, Hamill, Penny, who either were not worth the money or were not able to get on the park and contribute.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Agreed.

He walked away, and Thomas didn't want him.

BUT, if he had been kept he would have been quite handy to have for the PF.

Why?

It's amazing how the ruck was universally known to be our weakness while Knobel was at the Saints. He was useless. He was dropped for the prelim against Port after registering a donut against Sydney in the QF, and a very ordinary year.

He leaves to go to Carlton for more money on advice from his manager, only to be snaffled unexpectedly by Richmond for less money than what he was on with us!!

He has now mysteriously become a gun. A good tap ruckman. A crash and bash tough guy. He would have won us a flag.

How can someone improve so much during one off-season without playing a game?

 

[Handyandy]

Yes.

I'm sure it was terribly embarrassing for the lads to get beaten by a kick in one of the matches of the season against the Saints, then to thrash Port in a rout, only to lose by two goals to WCE at Subi.

Especially considering this was achieved by a team no one rated (myself included) coached by a man largely believed to be a dud (again, myself included)

/smartarse

Just out of curiosity though, why do you think the Crows as they stand only have one decent year left in them?

Because you have the oldest list in the afl and more importantly the core of your team (riccicuito, goodwin, mcleod, edwards and hart(all champions)) will be on the wrong side of 30 and looking at retirement.
All teams have a window of opportunity whilst the core of their list is at their prime.
Port will be in a similar boat in a couple of years if we dont blood a few juniors this season.