Banter Carlton is better in 2024. Who will be better in 2025? Carlton or Collingwood? Part 3

[Stax on the mill]

Pretty funny that after all the pages of chest beating, Carlton were the team that ended Collingwood’s season.

Feels good.

Nah, it was the spineless and insipid Eagles that ended the Pies season.

 

[Mr Meow]

You've got to love their debating approach...

'You're wrong'

'OK, prove me wrong'

<crickets>

All they need to do is reference 10 'bigger' wins than the one on Sunday....

Yeah, accepting that of course things like this will be subjective, it doesn't seem outright ridiculous to call that one of Carlton's better wins this century. If it was, then it would easily be challenged with evidence to the contrary.

But people would rather take up the pedantic "so how do you prove its a consensus?" stance rather than "I disagree, here's 20 off the top of my head that were far bigger or more special wins for Carlton this century".

 

[NetworkNerd]

Let's take a look at Carlton's best wins this century (i.e 2001 onwards).

Finals wins take precedence.

1. 2023 SF vs Melbourne
2. 2023 EF vs Sydney
3. 2011 EF vs Essendon
4. 2001 EF vs Adelaide
5. 2013 EF vs Richmond (marked down for finishing 9th)

After that it's slim pickings. Would Carlton supporters even be able to nominate another 6 matches? So Saturday's win to keep the season alive, in a period of contention while facing adversity, is as good a candidate as any to fill a spot in 6-10.

Rd22 2017 v Hawthorn would be up there

After 14 losses in a row to the Hawks the Marvel roof was about to pop off there was so much screaming and jumping in that last quarter by the Blues faithful

 

[doppleganger]

Let's take a look at Carlton's best wins this century (i.e 2001 onwards).

Finals wins take precedence.

1. 2023 SF vs Melbourne
2. 2023 EF vs Sydney
3. 2011 EF vs Essendon
4. 2001 EF vs Adelaide
5. 2013 EF vs Richmond (marked down for finishing 9th)

After that it's slim pickings. Would Carlton supporters even be able to nominate another 6 matches? So Saturday's win to keep the season alive, in a period of contention while facing adversity, is as good a candidate as any to fill a spot in 6-10.

Rd3 win over the Pies in 2012 would be up there. Blues were flying.

After their hugely successful (for Carlton) 2011, where they won an EF, to then start the next season 3-0 including a win over the Pies was Blue Heavan.

Then came the Blueshakes.

Poor Baggers realised that 5th in 2011 was their peak, they missed finals in 2012 and did not finish top8 again until 2023!!

 

[Mr Meow]

Some good nominations are coming in.

Blues supporters would have a few and then we can send Sunday's win down to 10-20th best this century where it belongs!

 

[doppleganger]

Nah, it was the spineless and insipid Eagles that ended the Pies season.

It was actually Collingwood v Sydney that ended our season.

All Pies knew that realistically we needed to win our last 5 after the Hawks gave us a touch up to make final, any loss would be seaaon over.

We got the easy wins against Richmond and the Shakers comfortably, but couldn't hold on against the premiership favs on their deck.

Oh well, shit happens.

 

[Fadge]

Rd22 2017 v Hawthorn would be up there

After 14 losses in a row to the Hawks the Marvel roof was about to pop off there was so much screaming and jumping in that last quarter by the Blues faithful

See, Carlton supporters - that's how it's done.

Although I would challenge against that being 'bigger' than their win against West Coast on Sunday.

It was Carlton's 6th win for the 2017 season, and guess it meant they avoided the spoon.

But for me, repercussions for finals are more important than whether a team finishes 16th, 17th or 18th...

 

[CarmenSandiego]

Let's take a look at Carlton's best wins this century (i.e 2001 onwards).

Finals wins take precedence.

1. 2023 SF vs Melbourne
2. 2023 EF vs Sydney
3. 2011 EF vs Essendon
4. 2001 EF vs Adelaide
5. 2013 EF vs Richmond (marked down for finishing 9th)

After that it's slim pickings. Would Carlton supporters even be able to nominate another 6 matches? So Saturday's win to keep the season alive, in a period of contention while facing adversity, is as good a candidate as any to fill a spot in 6-10.

It's a matter of opinion as well, I've got some personal favorite wins that didn't end up mattering in the grand scheme of things, but at the time they were good. The WCE win will be meaningless if we don't make the 8, so making such claims as 'best wins ever' can't really be made until we see the bigger story. If we win the flag and Ashton Moir wins a Norm, then yes the WCE game will be seen as something special.

But, I'll have a crack.

2013 Rd23 vs. Port to make the 8 (from 9th), come from behind win in the wet in SA.

Marc Murphy goal v Freo - one of our younger teams ever fielded I reckon, Cripps out, Curnow does his knee in the 1st, come from behind in the wet in WA to pip it at the last second. Think we had 2 on the bench most of the game.

Jack Newnes goal v Freo - was hilarious and a week-brightener during grim COVID times.

Rd21 v St Kilda last year - St Kilda were gathering steam & it was a must win for them, and we were due for a loss, we often struggled against them @ Marvel as well. Saints threw absolutely everything at us and in a rare show of resilience from Carlton we shrugged it off and ran over them - Ross Lyon was visibly livid as he knew his side couldn't have done anything more.

Rd1 v Richmond 2022 - Were comfortably beaten in Rd1 for basically a decade - finally turned the tables with a new coach, new playing style & 85k people there.

None of these are as good as your PF & GF wins but hey, gotta find the joy somewhere or else what's the point?

 

[Robertio]

See, Carlton supporters - that's how it's done.

Although I would challenge against that being 'bigger' than their win against West Coast on Sunday.

It was Carlton's 6th win for the 2017 season, and guess it meant they avoided the spoon.

But for me, repercussions for finals are more important than whether a team finishes 16th, 17th or 18th...

Sunday was easy our best win this century, we had half a team out with injuries and had to play some kids but what made it great was you Pie supporters needed West Coast to win

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

No flag for Collingwood this year thankfully. Get back inside your boxes and stay there Pies fans.

 

[Mr Meow]

It's a matter of opinion as well, I've got some personal favorite wins that didn't end up mattering in the grand scheme of things, but at the time they were good. The WCE win will be meaningless if we don't make the 8, so making such claims as 'best wins ever' can't really be made until we see the bigger story. If we win the flag and Ashton Moir wins a Norm, then yes the WCE game will be seen as something special.

But, I'll have a crack.

2013 Rd23 vs. Port to make the 8 (from 9th), come from behind win in the wet in SA.

Marc Murphy goal v Freo - one of our younger teams ever fielded I reckon, Cripps out, Curnow does his knee in the 1st, come from behind in the wet in WA to pip it at the last second. Think we had 2 on the bench most of the game.

Jack Newnes goal v Freo - was hilarious and a week-brightener during grim COVID times.

Rd21 v St Kilda last year - St Kilda were gathering steam & it was a must win for them, and we were due for a loss, we often struggled against them @ Marvel as well. Saints threw absolutely everything at us and in a rare show of resilience from Carlton we shrugged it off and ran over them - Ross Lyon was visibly livid as he knew his side couldn't have done anything more.

Rd1 v Richmond 2022 - Were comfortably beaten in Rd1 for basically a decade - finally turned the tables with a new coach, new playing style & 85k people there.

None of these are as good as your PF & GF wins but hey, gotta find the joy somewhere or else what's the point?

Very good post.

Of course they don't all have to be finals wins or even wins that secured finals to be special/important/meritorious.

Geelong had the wins against Hawthorn during Kennett's curse, the Richmond massacre in 2007 that kicked our side into gear, a few "after the siren" winning goals and any win as big underdogs. Plenty of great games in the '90s even though we were bested by incredible sides on a few GF days.

Agree about the joy part. I do find it ridiculous when supporters pretend the only satisfaction or enjoyment possible is when you watch your side win a premiership.

 

[Fadge]

Sunday was easy our best win this century, we had half a team out with injuries and had to play some kids but what made it great was you Pie supporters needed West Coast to win

View attachment 2085313

Loving these memes about Collingwood missing finals.

When it happens so rarely, one's got to make hay while the sun is shining.

 

[Stax on the mill]

Oh well, shit umpiring happens.

 

[DopeMaster]

Sunday was easy our best win this century, we had half a team out with injuries and had to play some kids but what made it great was you Pie supporters needed West Coast to win

View attachment 2085313

So ‘A Win For the Ages’ it was indeed. Historic.

 

[Robertio]

So ‘A Win For the Ages’ it was indeed. Historic.

I don't know about historic but it's made Collingwoods quest for the finals near impossible so one of Carltons finest moments this century.

 

[DopeMaster]

I don't know about historic but it's made Collingwoods quest for the finals near impossible so one of Carltons finest moments this century.

VHS coming to a good reseller near you.

 

[Sector 7G]

Well the undermanned Pies pulled off the upset of the season by beating the premiership favourites. But good on Carlton beating the might of West Coast, definitely a challenging game that one…

And that win against the Lions was all for nothing, Pies missing finals unless we see some amazing results on the weekend

 

[Crankyhawk]

Strength of double up opponents is a pretty important factor that can influence the ladder.

Hence why not bothering with how many "top4" teams a team has played, as again that pretends that their is a large gap between the top4 and 5th, and their aint in 2024.

The ladder aint a proper reflection of who is better, as the season is now effectively a handicapped season.

Carlton had pretty much a bottom 6 fixture in their double ups. Not sure how that happened (it’s identical to hawks double ups except they got port and we got crows). We did get lucky by having crows without rankine both times

 

[doppleganger]

Carlton had pretty much a bottom 6 fixture in their double ups. Not sure how that happened (it’s identical to hawks double ups except they got port and we got crows). We did get lucky by having crows without rankine both times

Going off topic, but it is because the actual fixture logic itself is flawed - just because a team was strong in 2023 doesnt mean they will be strong again in 2024.

And not sure why people accept the handicapping these days? Back when Carlton won their last flag (1995) dont recall any deliberate handicap to the premiers fixture the following season.

You can only assess fixture difficulty in retrospect, and yes it is clear that Carlton lucked up to get a softer group of double up opponents than most other contenders in 2024.

AFL really should address the compromised fixture, so the final ladder(s) actually ranks teams who have played the same opponents.

Current approach is flawed, but fans just accept it...or like Carlton fans in 2023, make up pretend ladders that has them not finishing 5th!

Back to this thread relevant, Pies beat Baggers twice in 2024, with GOATcos winning one himself, and Charlie going missing again in both.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

Weren't the Pies supporters gleefully predicting that the Eagles would beat us? Collingwood have actually only won one flag since 1958.

1990 doesn't count because they lost twice to the dominant team of the era the Hawks that year. They didn't play the Hawks in the finals either.

2010 also doesn't count because they needed a replay to beat St Kilda, and there is a major asterisk attached to that 2023 flag due to dodgy umpiring calls in the prelim final against GWS.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

Nah, it was the spineless and insipid Eagles that ended the Pies season.

The same spineless and insipid Eagles that were supposed to beat us yeah?

 

[Fadge]

Weren't the Pies supporters gleefully predicting that the Eagles would beat us? Collingwood have actually only won one flag since 1958.

1990 doesn't count because they lost twice to the dominant team of the era the Hawks that year. They didn't play the Hawks in the finals either.

2010 also doesn't count because they needed a replay to beat St Kilda, and there is a major asterisk attached to that 2023 flag due to dodgy umpiring calls in the prelim final against GWS.

Good to see you've how seen the light, and agree Collingwood have been better than Carlton in 2024.

 

[Worm4]

Carlton had pretty much a bottom 6 fixture in their double ups. Not sure how that happened (it’s identical to hawks double ups except they got port and we got crows). We did get lucky by having crows without rankine both times

GWS , Port , Collingwood twice. Add Geelong , Richmond and North
How is that bottom 6 fixture done again exactly ?

 

[Sweeetleftfoot]

Weren't the Pies supporters gleefully predicting that the Eagles would beat us? Collingwood have actually only won one flag since 1958.

1990 doesn't count because they lost twice to the dominant team of the era the Hawks that year. They didn't play the Hawks in the finals either.

2010 also doesn't count because they needed a replay to beat St Kilda, and there is a major asterisk attached to that 2023 flag due to dodgy umpiring calls in the prelim final against GWS.

Carlton’s 1995 flag doesn’t count the minimum has been set at dvd era alas vhs is out.

 

[Worm4]

Good to see you've how seen the light, and agree Collingwood have been better than Carlton in 2024.

Collingwood better than Carlton H2H
Carlton better than Essendon H2H
Essendon better than Collingwood H2H
Overall , Carlton better positioned on the ladder than Collingwood because they have beaten more sides than Collingwood over the course of the entire season.