why aren't Fitzroy's premierships considered part of Brisbane Lions history?

[Roylion]

Answer the specific question Roylion I asked you instead of just snapping back "no it wasn't" "yes it was"

I've answered these questions in this thread already. Read back through the thread.

Answer the specific question.... Explain why the bears history ended the minute the club in your words renamed itself bb-ffc Ltd.

Once again. The Bears history didn't end. The AFL regards the Bears and the Lions as the same club.

Moreover legally the Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions are the same club. ASIC regards the bears and the Lions as the same entity and Fitzroy as a separate entity.

Because it wasn't a simple renaming like the Swans. Instead another entity merged with them, in some capacity, thus creating a new entity.

Do you know that the South Melbourne Football Club Ltd. was in fact wound up in April 1983 in the Supreme Court of Victoria? No such entity now exists, renamed or not. A new entity "Sydney Swans Ltd." was created and the AFL licence transferred to that entity. No such thing happened to the Brisbane Bears / Lions.

No entity merged with the Bears. Brisbane merely acquired ( bought) some Fitzroy assets. That's laid out In the Deed. That does not make its new entity, a fact backed up by law. Legally, the Brisbane Bears and the Brisbane Lions are one and the same entity. ASIC regards their financial history for example as one and the same. No new entity was formed. The Deed of Arrangement establishes that also. The Supreme Court of Victoria made the same conclusion.

Hell even the Brisbane Lions argued the same in their court case against Fitzroy Football Club in 2010.

In 2010 in the Supreme Court of Victoria , the Brisbane Lions argued that the attempt by Fitzroy to try to hold the Brisbane Lions to the Deed of Arrangement in regards to the continuing use of the Fitzroy lion, "was the case of an "historical entity with a shrinking supporter base" (that is THE Fitzroy Football Club formed 1883) "seeking to control the activities of an ongoing enterprise in a way that was going to cause it great loss and get in the way of a progressive marketing exercise commensurate with a strong and competitive football team.”

The Brisbane Lions went on to say that the Fitzroy Football Club was engaging in “officious meddling” in the affairs of another Club (i.e. Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club Ltd).

Fitzroy Football Club Ltd (ACN 005 881 201. ABN 20 005 881 201. Registered: 09/07/1981)
vs. Brisbane Bears-Fitzroy Football Club Ltd (ACN: 054 263 473, ABN: 43 054 263 473 Registered: 16/12/1991. originally the Brisbane Bears Football Club Ltd.)
Supreme Court of Victoria - 3rd May 2010.

In other words what the Brisbane Lions were arguing in the Supreme Court is that THE Fitzroy Football Club had nothing to do with their club, nor had, or should have, any input into their club and the Deed of Arrangement, written by the "merged club" (i.e. the Brisbane Bears now calling themselves the Brisbane Lions) was nothing more than a worthless piece of paper.

Otherwise, the bears history would've continued like the Swans history did.

The Bears' history does continue, in the same way that any club's history continues if and when they change their name (Footscray to the Western Bulldogs), their mascot/logo/moniker ( plenty of examples in the VFL -AFL ) or their jumper (even more examples in the VFL - AFL).

 

[Viceregal]

If the Brisbane Lions decided to put a bear back on their jumper and call themselves the Brisbane Bears etc etc, apart from instantly losing any and all support from Roylion and co ... would there be any consequences in terms of entity etc?

 

[Roylion]

If the Brisbane Lions decided to put a bear back on their jumper and call themselves the Brisbane Bears etc etc, apart from instantly losing any and all support from Roylion and co ... would there be any consequences in terms of entity etc?

Nope. Same entity. Just re-re-branded.

Other AFL clubs have changed names, monikers and jumpers yet are still regarded as the same club. Why is this so difficult to understand?

In Sydney's case, South Melbourne Football Club no longer exist. South Melbourne physically did move to Sydney at the end of 1982, after playing eleven home games in Sydney as South Melbourne in 1982.

Fitzroy did not move out of Melbourne, has never gone out of existence and plays in its own right in Melbourne, completely independent of Brisbane, to this day.

 

[Sanecow]

Besides the obvious reasons around Fitzroy still being a separate entity, has anyone mentioned the fact that both the Fitzroy Lions and Brisbane Bears played alongside each other and against each other for several years which would mean merging any historical data messy and stupid.

Including 37 losses in a single season in 1991. Still a record to this day.

 

[Doss]

The Bears' history did continue. Roger Merrett is considered to be a great Brisbane captain despite never appearing as a Brisbane Lion. Michael Voss' career is considered to run with the one club from 1992 until 2006. He won a Brownlow as a Bear but three premiership medals as a Lion.

It was a nickname change and nothing more as far as Brisbane goes. And it's also a little insulting to Brisbane supporters who were there pre 1997 to suggest that the Bears' history is that of a different club.

I really encourage people to read the stuff Roylion has directed people to on the Fitzroy board here, because it lays a lot of this out in simple terms.

 

[Viceregal]

Nope. Same entity. Just re-re-branded.

Other AFL clubs have changed names, monikers and jumpers yet are still regarded as the same club. Why is this so difficult to understand?

In Sydney's case, South Melbourne Football Club no longer exist. South Melbourne physically did move to Sydney at the end of 1982, after playing eleven home games in Sydney as South Melbourne in 1982.

Fitzroy did not move out of Melbourne, has never gone out of existence and plays in its own right in Melbourne, completely independent of Brisbane, to this day.

So is there a point where the 'merger' agreement is voided enough that Brisbane would have to give anything/everything back to the Roys ... or is there nothing actually tangible they possess?

 

[Roylion]

So is there a point where the 'merger' agreement is voided enough that Brisbane would have to give anything/everything back to the Roys ... or is there nothing actually tangible they possess?

Only memorabilia. Brisbane essentially purchased the memorabilia. Fitzroy can't pursue the AFL for damages or the recovery of property as this was a clause in the Deed, that the Brisbane Bears wrote.

 

[Viceregal]

Only memorabilia. Brisbane essentially purchased the memorabilia. Fitzroy can't pursue the AFL for damages or the recovery of property as this was a clause in the Deed, that the Brisbane Bears wrote.

Last question (for now anyway) ... if the Brisbane Lions changed their constitution to enshrine one or two directors on the Lion's Board of Directors with full votes be supplied by the Fitzroy Football Club each year would you be in favour of that?

 

[Bunk Moreland]

Only memorabilia. Brisbane essentially purchased the memorabilia. Fitzroy can't pursue the AFL for damages or the recovery of property as this was a clause in the Deed, that the Brisbane Bears wrote.

Does Brisbane have the premiership flags? (The actual flags I mean, not on paper)

 

[Troubadour]

Nope. Same entity. Just re-re-branded.

Other AFL clubs have changed names, monikers and jumpers yet are still regarded as the same club. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Geelong Pivotonians, Geelong Seagulls, Geelong Cats

Fitzroy Maroons, Fitzroy Gorillas, Fitzroy Lions

North Melbourne Shinboners, North Melbourne Blue Birds, North Melbourne Kangaroos

Essendon Same Olds, Essendon Sashwearers, Essendon Dons, Essendon Bombers

Richmond Richmondites, Richmond Wasps, Richmond Tigers

Carlton Butchers, Carlton Blues

Footscray Prince Imperials, Footscray Tricolours, Footscray Bulldogs, Western bulldogs

 

[Riccardo11]

Nope. Same entity. Just re-re-branded.

Other AFL clubs have changed names, monikers and jumpers yet are still regarded as the same club. Why is this so difficult to understand?

In Sydney's case, South Melbourne Football Club no longer exist. South Melbourne physically did move to Sydney at the end of 1982, after playing eleven home games in Sydney as South Melbourne in 1982.

Fitzroy did not move out of Melbourne, has never gone out of existence and plays in its own right in Melbourne, completely independent of Brisbane, to this day.

I guess the confusion comes in because Brisbanes new nickname and jumper are reminiscent of a club that previously competed in the competition.

If St Kilda changed it's nickname to the Dockers and added purple to their jumper while Freo dropped out of the AFL, the same conclusion would probably apply.

Plus the AFL spin that indicates it was a merger when anyone around at the time knows it was far from it.

 

[Roylion]

Does Brisbane have the premiership flags? (The actual flags I mean, not on paper)

Six of the eight flags are missing. The Historical Society has the other two. They qualify under memorabilia, so Brisbane having bought them in 1996 have official jurisdiction over them. Fitzroy by the terms of the agreement cannot seek to have the memorabilia returned to the co troll of Fitzroy. Any memorabilia that Fitzroy acquires after the 1st November 1996, belongs to Fitzroy. Any that belonged to the club as at 1st November 1996 was acquired by the Brisbane Bears.

The relevant sections of the arrangement are below.

Clause 7.1 a.
a) after the end of the 1996 Season and on or before the Merger Date, Fitzroy will cease its Fitzroy Operations, terminate the membership of its Appointee of AFL (appointed pursuant to AFL's constitutent documents) and surrender its AFL Licence and release AFL from all claims connected with its AFL Licence and such termination and surrender;

Section 2. Except as provided in this Deed, nothing in this Deed will be construed or interpreted to mean that Brisbane Bears will assume any liability for the debts or obligations of Fitzroy or that the Brisbane Bears will have any input in the ongoing management of Fitzroy

 

[Roylion]

Geelong Pivotonians, Geelong Seagulls, Geelong Cats

Fitzroy Maroons, Fitzroy Gorillas, Fitzroy Lions

North Melbourne Shinboners, North Melbourne Blue Birds, North Melbourne Kangaroos

Essendon Same Olds, Essendon Sashwearers, Essendon Dons, Essendon Bombers

Richmond Richmondites, Richmond Wasps, Richmond Tigers

Carlton Butchers, Carlton Blues

Footscray Prince Imperials, Footscray Tricolours, Footscray Bulldogs, Western bulldogs

Twenty two separate clubs listed above aren't there?

 

[Roylion]

Last question (for now anyway) ... if the Brisbane Lions changed their constitution to enshrine one or two directors on the Lion's Board of Directors with full votes be supplied by the Fitzroy Football Club each year would you be in favour of that?

Well as a supporter of the Brisbane Lions from a Fitzroy background, yeah probably. I'm always in favour of a greater Fitzroy representation in the competition the Roys were a part of for a hundred years.

However even doing that still wouldn't make it a 'merger'.

 

[chiwigi]

They formed a new club called Brisbane Lions. So they are basically treated as one.

Imagined if Carlton and Essendon merged and became Essendon Blues. Do they then have 32 Premierships?

If for example Fitzroy moved to Gold Coast at that time and became Gold Coast Lions then their records will stand like Swans'.

Exactly, its only an issue because Brisbane didn't have any premierships before the takeover. If they had won a lot people would not be suggesting the add Fitzroys to the total. In this type of situation you could have a 'club' that both won the Premiership AND came runners up the same year beating itself in the GF. Daft.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

I know for instance, during WW2, some NFL teams couldn't field teams, so they merged for a few years, and then when the war ended, they ceased operating as a merger, and resumed their separate identities. When it comes to history and stats, those merged teams never carried on the stats/history of the separate teams. When the merged teams split back up, resuming their former identities, then those identities resumed carrying on the history/stats that were put on pause before the mergers.

I think the best way to think of it is Brisbane simply took up an offer from the AFL - they rebranded themselves from the Bears to the Lions, and in return received a pile of cash and eight players from Fitzroy's 1996 list.

Fitzroy simply left the AFL and Port Adelaide came in.

 

[Only Forwards]

Left an irrevocable scar on the football landscape with the movement of Fitzroy out of the AFL.

I was too young to understand what it meant and now that I am old enough to understand it was discpicable.

 

[raymond35]

What is "the historical society" roylion?
Also, where do the two remaining flags actually sit at the moment?

 

[Riccardo11]

What is "the historical society" roylion?
Also, where do the two remaining flags actually sit at the moment?

Is the Historical Society that building in Mordialloc near the train station?

I'd love to go in, but the one time I was able, it was closed - by appointment only.

 

[Roylion]

What is "the historical society" roylion?

In 1996, the Brisbane Lions' Board entrusted long-serving Fitzroy official Arthur Wilson and former player and administrator the late George Coates with the task establishing a Fitzroy-Brisbane Lions Historical Society in Melbourne. The Historical Society is responsible for the safe-keeping, repairing and ongoing maintenance of all items of Fitzroy memorabilia, belonging to and collected by the Brisbane Lions.

I'm a current member.

Also, where do the two remaining flags actually sit at the moment?

In the care of the Historical Society. Not sure where they keep them. Given that the Society wants to preserve them, they're not on regular display. They are brought out occasionally for various functions.

 

[Roylion]

Is the Historical Society that building in Mordialloc near the train station?

No. That's the Fitzroy Shop and Museum. It's run by Fitzroy's company secretary Bill Atherton. This has nothing to do with the Brisbane Lions. Profits from the Shop go directly to the Fitzroy Football Club. It's here you can buy an authentic Fitzroy jumper, cheaper that what the AFL sell Fitzroy jumpers for.

Incidentally the FFC logo that appears on the famous Fitzroy jumper is trademarked by the Fitzroy Football Club. Not the Brisbane Lions or the AFL. Another indication that Fitzroy and Brisbane remain separate entities.

I'd love to go in, but the one time I was able, it was closed - by appointment only.

It's quite incredible in terms of having Fitzroy memorabilia and other Fitzroy items. None of which has anything to do with the Brisbane Lions. See the Fitzroy website for more details about what the shop sells.

 

[Roysforever]

No. That's the Fitzroy Shop and Museum. It's run by Fitzroy's company secretary Bill Atherton. This has nothing to do with the Brisbane Lions. Profits from the Shop go directly to the Fitzroy Football Club. It's here you can buy an authentic Fitzroy jumper, cheaper that what the AFL sell Fitzroy jumpers for.

Incidentally the FFC logo that appears on the famous Fitzroy jumper is trademarked by the Fitzroy Football Club. Not the Brisbane Lions or the AFL. Another indication that Fitzroy and Brisbane remain separate entities.



It's quite incredible in terms of having Fitzroy memorabilia and other Fitzroy items. None of which has any hit g to do with the Brisbane Lions. See the Fitzroy website for more details about what the shop sells.

Bill concurrently brings along a selection of the shop's merchandise to Fitzroy home games in the VAFA. So if you're free on a Saturday afternoon take the chance to get along for some local footy and pick up a bargain that supports Fitzroy.

 

[The_Wookie]

In the care of the Historical Society. Not sure where they keep them. Given that the Society wants to preserve them, they're not on regular display. They are brought out occasionally for various functions.

Isnt there a facility at Docklands for this stuff now?
http://www.fitzroyfc.com.au/archive/memorabiliadisplayatetihad.html

 

[Roylion]

Isnt there a facility at Docklands for this stuff now?
http://www.fitzroyfc.com.au/archive/memorabiliadisplayatetihad.html

Yep. But the Fitzroy Football Club have no input into this facility. It's run by the Historical Society for the Brisbane Lions.

 

[*Paul*]

.
But then you hear other people and other sites, say that it was a takeover and that the Dragons have won 16 grand finals.

This is merely St George fans refusing to accept reality, it can be safely put aside. Manly fans have drifted into the same territory, wanting all of Beaver's 349 games to be maroon & white flavoured. Seems only Wests and Balmain people happily absorbed their new circumstances.