Why does LBJ get no respect on these boards??

[popathon]

LeBron hasn't been relying on his athleticism nearly as much this year, he's been taking a lot more jumpers and posting up more. His defense is something that really bugs me, i don't know how he was voted 2nd in DPOY. Even his blocks are stupid half the time, he blocks it, send it 3 rows back and pumps his chest. He could've blocked and at least tried to get it close to a team mate. But hey i'm nitpicking.

 

[peternorth]

LeBron hasn't been relying on his athleticism nearly as much this year, he's been taking a lot more jumpers and posting up more. His defense is something that really bugs me, i don't know how he was voted 2nd in DPOY. Even his blocks are stupid half the time, he blocks it, send it 3 rows back and pumps his chest. He could've blocked and at least tried to get it close to a team mate. But hey i'm nitpicking.

pops, can i call you that, you and i know blocks that result in the ball smashing some poor schmuck in the 10th row make it on sportscenter. simple block (no wind up) does not.

 

[Hodges]

This is why LeBitch gets no respect.

He is just a douche. No idea about sportsmanship, considers himself above the game and doesnt take criticism (see his comments when the refs called his first crab dribble). Thats the off court stuff.

On court, no doubt he has become a great player, but I dont respect his game. He is successful because he is stronger, quicker and more explosive than everyone else. Its the same with Dwight Howard - he is supposedly the next great center, but he has nearly zero offensive tools. He gets by being stronger, quicker and more explosive than his peers.

There are few things uglier in the game of basketball than watching LBJ trying to go 1 on 5 for a whole shot-clock. If it wasnt for Shard and Turk balling in the ECF last year, I probably would have switched it off - LeBrons game pissed me off that much. In the open court his passing is great to watch, but the iso's he does are just so incredibly painful to watch.

 

[popathon]

pops, can i call you that, you and i know blocks that result in the ball smashing some poor schmuck in the 10th row make it on sportscenter. simple block (no wind up) does not.

Wait, petey, you aren't saying he does this just to get on TV and look good? I agree though and it's damn annoying, although some of the chase down blocks are fairly jizz worthy.

Sure he is athletically gifted but i think people here are underselling his actual ball skills.

 

[peternorth]

On court, no doubt he has become a great player, but I dont respect his game. He is successful because he is stronger, quicker and more explosive than everyone else. Its the same with Dwight Howard - he is supposedly the next great center, but he has nearly zero offensive tools. He gets by being stronger, quicker and more explosive than his peers.

its not fair to say someone is successful cause of their body traits. its not his fault he's a freak of nature.

 

[Hodges]

Thats beside the point though. I dont respect his game because he isnt really fundamentally sound. He relies solely on his athleticism.

 

[mdc]

Thats beside the point though. I dont respect his game because he isnt really fundamentally sound. He relies solely on his athleticism.

Strongly disagree.

You're spot on about Dwight, but LeBron is the best ball-handler and passer at his size since Pippen.

 

[Hodges]

No doubt he is a great passer (its probably the best feature of his game), but this is where my main gripe with LeBron comes from. Late game situations, he gets in Kobe crica 2005 mode - ie; doesnt trust his team mates to get the job done, so tries to do everything himself. Except he doesnt have the game to be able to break down 5 defenders.

And in these situations he invariably stops passing the ball. People say his teammates stop moving, but the movement during the rest of the game comes when LeBron penetrates and dishes. He initiates the offense, so when he does his iso crap (dribbling between the legs for 8 seconds then hoisting an ill-advised 20 footer) he is freezing out his teammates and killing any momentum they had. It was blindingly obvious what was happening during last years ECF, yet because LBJ is infallable, he skipped any blame and it all fell on the shoulders of the team.

 

[mdc]

Again, don't buy that. For example, you say "Kobe circa 2005" mode as to imply that he's changed. Yet the stats show that on last possessions, Kobe has something like 46 shot attempts to 1 assist over the last few years!

LeBron's numbers are much more balanced; not only does he shoot a much better % than Kobe in late game situations, he also has far more assists.

Personally, what I thought was blindingly obvious during last year's ECF is that Stan Van Gundy is roughly 149 leagues above Mike Brown as a coach, and as such exposed him over and over and over again on PnR's and post ups for Dwight.

edit: My point is I think LeBron gets a bit more flak than he should because he doesn't have a ring; something that for mine is entirely out of his hands considering the players and coach they've put around him. You put Kobe on that Cavs team, I'm not sure they make the playoffs.

 

[peternorth]

Strongly disagree.

You're spot on about Dwight, but LeBron is the best ball-handler and passer at his size since Pippen.

hai

yes i know lbj > lamar

 

[Hodges]

Im not talking about a few possessions, im talking about entire quarters. There was one game last post season where LBJ went for 20+ points in a quarter (i think it was the fourth, cant remember for sure though), purely by iso-ing against the whole team. Yeah it was effective, and it kept them in the game, but it also froze the rest of the team out of the offense. And (if my memory serves me rightly) when he finally did start passing the ball again (because he was getting triple teamed), his teammates missed all the shots, as they literally hadnt touched the ball all quarter.

But anyway, ive made my point. I dont expect you to agree with me, but thats where I stand on LBJ.

 

[popathon]

Im not talking about a few possessions, im talking about entire quarters. There was one game last post season where LBJ went for 20+ points in a quarter (i think it was the fourth, cant remember for sure though), purely by iso-ing against the whole team. Yeah it was effective, and it kept them in the game, but it also froze the rest of the team out of the offense. And (if my memory serves me rightly) when he finally did start passing the ball again (because he was getting triple teamed), his teammates missed all the shots, as they literally hadnt touched the ball all quarter.

But anyway, ive made my point. I dont expect you to agree with me, but thats where I stand on LBJ.

Are you talking about the 3rd Q against the bucks when he scored 19 points in 2 minutes (or thereabouts)?
I'm worried Mike Brown and Danny Ferry don't really have the balls to stand up to LeBron and tell him what to do. This could just come down to my lack of faith in MB though. I can think of many examples where he's given the last shot to Mo or Boobie, given how streaky they are though i might prefer the Leiso.

 

[Hodges]

No this was in the playoffs last year. Pretty sure it was against Orlando too.

 

[sheller891]

Im not talking about a few possessions, im talking about entire quarters. There was one game last post season where LBJ went for 20+ points in a quarter (i think it was the fourth, cant remember for sure though), purely by iso-ing against the whole team. Yeah it was effective, and it kept them in the game, but it also froze the rest of the team out of the offense. And (if my memory serves me rightly) when he finally did start passing the ball again (because he was getting triple teamed), his teammates missed all the shots, as they literally hadnt touched the ball all quarter.

But anyway, ive made my point. I dont expect you to agree with me, but thats where I stand on LBJ.

yes against orlando when mo williams was so cold it wasnt even funny
when ilgauskas couldnt hit a jump shot to save his life
when the whole team had lost complete confidence

the leader of the team had to step up and save his team from BOMBING OUT OF THE ECF and you know what he did, he absolutely dominated a whole quarter to give us a win.

and he didnt do it through sheer athleticism. beautiful ball handling, fade away jump shots, great spins to the baskets and IIRC 2 great dishes aswell. without lebron doing this we lose by 10+

you want him to keep passing in the playoffs where youve got once chance to shine and his whole team is stinking it up, and lose the game but at least "he didnt take people 1 on 1" - every superstar has to step up and go ball-hog, especially in the finals when the pressure gets to many players. its not lebrons fault that his team was so mediocre, he really couldnt trust in that situation anyone and had to dominate for nearly a whole quarter rather than half a quarter like most superstars.

the guy is one of the most unselfish superstars in the game - it boggles the mind when you start hatin on him for - you must of been hibernating when he copped ridiculous shit, i mean ridiculous levels of shit FOR TRUSTING HIS TEAM-MATES in late game situations??

cue everyone "what type of superstar does that, michael never did that etc..."
nearly every player of his calibre and stature on a team has to dominate in late stages and he has one of highest assists ratios in that time - classic example of letting your hatred for him get in the way of facts.

moreover as mdc said, hes one of best ball handlers and passers at his position/size for a long time. so hes not succesful purely based on athleticism, though that does help.

but thats like saying you dont respect carmelo anthony because he has more athleticism than anthony johnson?? not his damn fault

not challenging your opinion AbOut lebron the person, but lebron the player. chris bosh can be so ridiculously selfish on your team and NOT stand up in clutch situations when his team need the superstar to, but you havent said a word about him - but put lebron in that level, thats a bit of a joke

 

[peternorth]

and he didnt do it through sheer athleticism. beautiful ball handling, crab dribble, fade away jump shots, great spins to the baskets and IIRC 2 great dishes aswell. without lebron doing this we lose by 10+

interesting abilities there.



as for ball hogging, i agree. kobe does it. all gun players have to take on that responsibility at games end.

 

[sheller891]

interesting abilities there.



as for ball hogging, i agree. kobe does it. all gun players have to take on that responsibility at games end.

just to make my point a bit more valid, i dont think lebron is the most fundamentally sound at all. in fact in terms of todays superstars, kobe has about 10 more offensive options at least - i.e. so much craftier despite being very athletic aswell. but look where kobe is in his stage of career and look where michael was when he become craftier and more fundamentally sound

key point being that you should use god gifts while you still got em

but lebron is a freak of nature and would be completely unstoppable if he could an offensive repertoire similar to melo mans and used screens really well like roy or used the 2 steps to full advantage like wade

 

[sheller891]

ps - yes those photos make him douche-worthy for sure

but as a cavs supporter, all you can ask is that he isnt a douche to his team-mates/coach and from all accounts he is a superb team-mate who makes other feel welcome and helps improve their game, so im willing to let it slide

but no doubt - the guys full of himself, but what superstar isnt?

many people have alluded to jordan being a selfish prick, can you imagine if he had more media coverage (he wasnt EVEN number 1 pick)... lebron has been followed by cameras and labelled chosen one since a very young age, while many are strong enough, he obviously let it overwhelm him and he turned into a bit of a jerk which i can definitely see even if i wear rose coloured glasses

 

[popathon]

......
the guy is one of the most unselfish superstars in the game - it boggles the mind when you start hatin on him for - you must of been hibernating when he copped ridiculous shit, i mean ridiculous levels of shit FOR TRUSTING HIS TEAM-MATES in late game situations??
......

Haha i forgot about that. People love to hate.

 

[Hodges]

yes against orlando when mo williams was so cold it wasnt even funny
when ilgauskas couldnt hit a jump shot to save his life
when the whole team had lost complete confidence

the leader of the team had to step up and save his team from BOMBING OUT OF THE ECF and you know what he did, he absolutely dominated a whole quarter to give us a win.

and he didnt do it through sheer athleticism. beautiful ball handling, fade away jump shots, great spins to the baskets and IIRC 2 great dishes aswell. without lebron doing this we lose by 10+

you want him to keep passing in the playoffs where youve got once chance to shine and his whole team is stinking it up, and lose the game but at least "he didnt take people 1 on 1" - every superstar has to step up and go ball-hog, especially in the finals when the pressure gets to many players. its not lebrons fault that his team was so mediocre, he really couldnt trust in that situation anyone and had to dominate for nearly a whole quarter rather than half a quarter like most superstars.

Stats from Game 6 of the ECF:

LeBron James: 25 points (8 of 20 field goals, 7 of 11 free throws), 7 rebounds, 7 assists
Delonte West: 22 points (9 of 19 field goals), 2 steals
Mo Williams: 17 points (6 of 12 field goals), 5 assists
Anderson Varejao: 14 points (7 of 12 field goals), 8 rebounds

LeBron has the worst FG% of all those guys listed. The only starter who shot worse was Big Z, but you cant count on him scoring against DH12.

Im going to try and find out exactly which game it was that I first noticed this iso shit he did, will be interesting to find out exactly how many shots the rest of the team took after the midway point in the third, and there shooting %'s from before that mark. From what I remember, they were on fire, but LBJ froze them out.

the guy is one of the most unselfish superstars in the game - it boggles the mind when you start hatin on him for - you must of been hibernating when he copped ridiculous shit, i mean ridiculous levels of shit FOR TRUSTING HIS TEAM-MATES in late game situations??

cue everyone "what type of superstar does that, michael never did that etc..."
nearly every player of his calibre and stature on a team has to dominate in late stages and he has one of highest assists ratios in that time - classic example of letting your hatred for him get in the way of facts.

I never had any problem with that stuff. I remember quite clearly the play you are talking about - where he drove, dished to Damon Jones in the corner for game winning three. I applauded him for that. I had been a James fan up until he started his iso shit in the ECF last year. They werent tested all year, so when they finally started to lose, LeBron lost all trust in his teammates and tried to do it all himself. And it was unbelievably ugly.

moreover as mdc said, hes one of best ball handlers and passers at his position/size for a long time. so hes not succesful purely based on athleticism, though that does help.

but thats like saying you dont respect carmelo anthony because he has more athleticism than anthony johnson?? not his damn fault

Yeah and I acknowledged that fact. He is a great passer. My whole point here is based off him ball hogging for ENTIRE QUARTERS AT A TIME. Not him taking late game shots (which, as the franchise player, is his right), im only talking about the ridiculous iso plays he ran for himself, which killed his teams momentum.

My point about athleticism was to say he bases his game off of it. He bullies his way to the rack most possessions (he usually only settles for the jumper is cant break his man down off the dribble), and uses his strength and athleticism to finish strong. Im not saying theres anything overly wrong with that, I just dont respect it. Which is what this whole topic is about.

Also, Melo hasnt based his game off his athleticism. He understands how to create separation through footwork and headfakes. His shot is money, so he has based his game off being able to get that shot off regardless of the coverage.

not challenging your opinion AbOut lebron the person, but lebron the player. chris bosh can be so ridiculously selfish on your team and NOT stand up in clutch situations when his team need the superstar to, but you havent said a word about him - but put lebron in that level, thats a bit of a joke

Ive said before that Bosh is a selfish player. I had a rant about it not 2 days ago.

 

[Westy Bogan]

Again, don't buy that. For example, you say "Kobe circa 2005" mode as to imply that he's changed. Yet the stats show that on last possessions, Kobe has something like 46 shot attempts to 1 assist over the last few years!

LeBron's numbers are much more balanced; not only does he shoot a much better % than Kobe in late game situations, he also has far more assists.

Personally, what I thought was blindingly obvious during last year's ECF is that Stan Van Gundy is roughly 149 leagues above Mike Brown as a coach, and as such exposed him over and over and over again on PnR's and post ups for Dwight.

edit: My point is I think LeBron gets a bit more flak than he should because he doesn't have a ring; something that for mine is entirely out of his hands considering the players and coach they've put around him. You put Kobe on that Cavs team, I'm not sure they make the playoffs.

FK THis IS A GOOD POST!

Put Lebron on the Lakers team surrounded by good players and a good coach and watch the rings come.

 

[robd]

I am constantly amazed at how unselfish Lebron is when he has the tools to dominate individually on a level never before seen. Despite being on some seriously crappy teams, he has never truly abondaned the team-game for the benefit of showcasing the extremes of his own talents (i.e. Kobe circa 2005-2006). So even if you think Lebron is a douche, arrogant, selfish, whatever.. you have to admit that on a basketball court he is very selfless. And I only care about what NBA players do on a basketball court.

I agree, Lebron relies on his athleticism a lot, but as someone here said, you might as well use the gifts while you've got them. If you stripped Lebron of his athleticism and muscle, who knows what kind of player he could be? He might morph into a black Larry Bird for all we know. So its unfair to use that argument against him.

My only gripe against Lebron is his constant marketing/gloating campaign to make him seem bigger than he really is. To me, he is trying to force his legacy down everyone's throats when really he hasn't earned it yet. When he wins a title (or more) all the t-shirts and the commercials and the building-sized posters will be a little easier to swallow. But as it is, right now it all seems incredibly premature and a little too contrived.

 

[luke ball14]

LeBron is hated on here because he is the best player in the league, the same reason every great AFL player is hated by other teams supporters on the AFL forums. You allways hate a great player on the other side, plus LeBron is black, which never helps in Australia.

 

[sblack]

LeBron is hated on here because he is the best player in the league, the same reason every great AFL player is hated by other teams supporters on the AFL forums. You allways hate a great player on the other side, plus LeBron is black, which never helps in Australia.

You're an idiot. Have you read anything in this thread?

 

[Hodges]

Thats probably one of the most ignorant posts ive ever read on bigfooty. Congrats.

 

[luke ball14]

I am constantly amazed at how unselfish Lebron is when he has the tools to dominate individually on a level never before seen. Despite being on some seriously crappy teams, he has never truly abondaned the team-game for the benefit of showcasing the extremes of his own talents (i.e. Kobe circa 2005-2006). So even if you think Lebron is a douche, arrogant, selfish, whatever.. you have to admit that on a basketball court he is very selfless. And I only care about what NBA players do on a basketball court.

I agree, Lebron relies on his athleticism a lot, but as someone here said, you might as well use the gifts while you've got them. If you stripped Lebron of his athleticism and muscle, who knows what kind of player he could be? He might morph into a black Larry Bird for all we know. So its unfair to use that argument against him.

My only gripe against Lebron is his constant marketing/gloating campaign to make him seem bigger than he really is. To me, he is trying to force his legacy down everyone's throats when really he hasn't earned it yet. When he wins a title (or more) all the t-shirts and the commercials and the building-sized posters will be a little easier to swallow. But as it is, right now it all seems incredibly premature and a little too contrived.

Completely agree with this post. Kobe has so many tools around him at the moment and he is playing brilliantly. But give LeBron those teamates and he averages 12 assists, he is the third best passer in the league behind Paul and Nash. And if he wanted to be he could score 35 a game like Jordan and Kobe have done.

As for the marketing people forget Kobe would be marketed ahead of LeBron still by Nike if he did not rape someone. Thats not LeBron's fault.