TAS Will a team go to Tassie

[Johnny Bananas]

Again, Carlton were playing home games at Princes park as recently as 2005. Why they dont let AFL teams play there I dont know.

From Carlton's perspective, why would they want to, when they're getting a good deal at Docklands/MCG where they can fit in more fans?

From other clubs' perspective, who would want to play at Carlton's ground? In the 80s and 90s clubs weren't particularly good landlords to other clubs.

From the AFL's perspective, why would they want another ground competing with their own investment?

As a north fan, I find this strange.

I thought you were a "Freomaniac"

Well you think of Brisbanes history in the AFL. They played games in Carrara at Gold coast for the 1st few years. Then move to the Gabba in 1993.

When Brisbane made finals in 1995-6, the Gabbas capacity was around 25,000. When Brisbane wont the 2001-3 flags, the Gabbas capacity was 37,500.

All very interesting, but what does that have to do with my point? Inner Brisbane wasn't a safe Labor voting area at that time (and a fair amount of it still isn't). Swing seats lead to more spending on things like stadia. It helped that the Gabba has test cricket which also lobbies for upgrades, whereas Princes Park and Whitten Oval won't.

So how much did it cost to develop docklands?

Will it cost 300 milllon to do up Princes park?

How much money was spent on Kardinia Park?

Docklands cost $460m, bearing in mind this was more than 20 years ago and things cost more now due to inflation and China driving up the price of materials. Kardinia Park cost $177 million for stages 1-4 of redevelopment. Stage 5 will cost an extra $102 million. Another comparable stadium is Metricon, which cost $144 million for redevelopment. You would imagine a 30k seater would cost a bit more than Metricon's 25k seater and a bit less than Kardinia's 36k.

So I don't think the cost would be as high as $300m, more like $140m given $35m has already been invested for playing AFLW there. Finding that money will be another issue though.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

The TCA is on a fairly big hill. There is not as much space as you think. As well as that, the parklands and WW1 walk are very popular.

The most obvious place is Mac Point, which is an area of old dock buildings right in the heart of Hobart. But everyone wants a piece of that pie.

Is that the area just up from Salamanca Markets?? That would be a perfect spot for the ground. I cant see why the Tassie Government would not spend the $ to build a world class stadium to give it the best chance of success. Bellrieve is not an option, will end up like Sydney's olympic stadium, too far away from anything that no one wants to go.. The success of Melbourne's sporting precinct show that fans want to be able to go and watch the game, then head to a pub or out for a meal all in the same area. Mac Point would be perfect, could easily set it up as a PPP, give off some land to developers to build apartments whilst funding the build of the stadia to reduce the strain on the public purse.

Tassie is going to get one chance at making it work and needs to have a stadium accessible to tourists that will flock from Melbourne everytime they play in Tassie. It will be a boom for the Hobart economy, hotels will be full, restaurants booked out etc there will be plenty of fans from Melbourne who will make their winter holiday to Hobart to coincide with the footy.

 

[Supercoach Bargain]

Both areas at Mac Point and Glenorchy get a mention:

Precincts — Hobart Rail

www.hobartrail.com

The state govt was angling for cash from the Feds as part of the "city deal".

It help when you tie in footy, rail renewal and redevelopment all in one thing

 

[fargothegreat]

Both areas at Mac Point and Glenorchy get a mention:

Precincts — Hobart Rail

www.hobartrail.com

The state govt was angling for cash from the Feds as part of the "city deal".

It help when you tie in footy, rail renewal and redevelopment all in one thing

Well I guess infrastructure spend is a good way to boost the economy. Only have to look at what the Andrews government has done in Victoria for proof of that.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

No Cookies | The Mercury

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www.themercury.com.au

This looks a perfect plan, and 500mil in the scheme of things is not a lot for the long term impact this would have on the Tasmanian economy. Of course no value doing this unless AFL commit.

 

[Tasmanian saint]

The basic problem is I doubt anyone is going to pay for a brand new stadium. I like the idea that has been suggested here (think it was by madmug but might have been someone else) of upgrading KGV Oval instead, it's near that light rail line they want to put in.

The problem is kgv is s

Pork barrel park was always going to get the major upgrade & major games. That's the politics.

Boot Park was always going to be a problem. When they started developing it in the mid 80's so many people said its a stupid place to build a stadium. On a suburban beach on a peninsula in a village like area, access was & is crap.

The Big Arses that pumped for it were so myopic & self interested. Egoists like the then Cricket boss who pushed it lived around the corner so it was a short waddle for him. He was a big wig with the local teams which used it for cricket & footy.

They touted ferry services which never really accounted to much.

KGV at least has lots of parking, the light rail if it ever gets developed on the rail line that still exists, a bus mall & highway access nearby. Its the most sensible option. Not that sense comes into it.

North Hobart Oval is just too small & again has limited access. A great venue with an amphitheatre effect. Sad but its not up to it any more,

FWIW!

i played all my junior footy at Glenorchy Kgv The ground it’s self is great a similar size to mcg the problem is like Blundstone it is surrounded buy suburban streets houses on one side they would have to take over the soccer ground an swimming pool to have sufficient space it might be workable if we had working rail system but it’s looking like we will get the ferries ⛴ instead also I don’t think there is as much parking around the dec as you might think I went to the chilli peppers concert there a crowd of 8 k and the car park was jam packed there definitely wouldn’t be parking for 20-30 k crowds I still think the tca- domain would be best option 10 min walk to cbd plenty of room for parking central to eastern and western shore and kinbourough areas easy to access

 

[big_e]

If your club had any common sense they'd be enjoying life in the sun on the Gold Coast.

If my club moved to the Gold Coast, it would be dead. Loaded up with debt, locals unwilling to get behind a struggling team dumped in a place they didn't want to go, the Victorian supporter base completely disenfranchised. It would have been wound up by now. That's why we fought so hard to stay. And we're better off now financially than we've been for decades.

And before you continue, North Melbourne doesn't want to go to Tasmania, and Tasmania don't want us either. So any further argument is just wasting your breath.

Such as what?

Talking about the Docklands deal again?

JeanLucGoddard loves to stir the point, but take the shit-stirring out of it and look at it objectively. The AFL owning Docklands is what will get all 18 clubs through this. It's the only reason they've been able get so much money so quickly. And if the flow of money from the AFL and its clubs through to grassroots footy stopped, then we're talking dozens, maybe even hundreds of country and suburban clubs nationwide going under.

So tell me again what good would come from the AFL supporting a new venue that destroys the value of its biggest asset?

 

[madmug]

The problem is kgv is s

i played all my junior footy at Glenorchy Kgv The ground it’s self is great a similar size to mcg the problem is like Blundstone it is surrounded buy suburban streets houses on one side they would have to take over the soccer ground an swimming pool to have sufficient space it might be workable if we had working rail system but it’s looking like we will get the ferries ⛴ instead also I don’t think there is as much parking around the dec as you might think I went to the chilli peppers concert there a crowd of 8 k and the car park was jam packed there definitely wouldn’t be parking for 20-30 k crowds I still think the tca- domain would be best option 10 min walk to cbd plenty of room for parking central to eastern and western shore and kinbourough areas easy to access

The TCA is on top of a hill. Their isn't the parking you'd imagine. Most of it is bushland & no way would the HCC greens let anyone chop or mow any of it. People don't walk up hills for anything nowdays, plus theirs not much parking in the city anyway.

North Hobart has good highway access but limited parking.

KGV has the DEC,, Elwick racetrack, Showgrounds all within a short walk. Also the rail track, bus mall, highway & main road close by & lots of street parking within a short walk & near the bike track. Altogether, that's a lot more close by parking than anywhere else.

Its by far the best option/cheapest option should it come to that.

 

[fargothegreat]

And before you continue, North Melbourne doesn't want to go to Tasmania, and Tasmania don't want us either. So any further argument is just wasting your breath.

The only reason you're profitable in Melbourne is because Tasmania is propping you up.

And you're right, us Tasmanians don't want North. So what happens when we end the arrangement with you guys? What will you do? How will you find another $4 million a year to sustain you with such a small supporter base?

 

[big_e]

The only reason you're profitable in Melbourne is because Tasmania is propping you up.

And you're right, us Tasmanians don't want North. So what happens when we end the arrangement with you guys? What will you do? How will you find another $4 million a year to sustain you with such a small supporter base?

Firstly, thanks for paying off our debt. It's made us muchmore financially secure.

Secondly, don't hold your breath about Tasmania pulling out - a Tasmanian team (which I fully support, by the way) is probably at least a decade away now. And you'll need the tourism dollars that our games, and Hawthorn's, generates.

In the meantime, we'll do what everyone else is doing - try to grow our membership and commercial base while keeping a lid on expenses. And given our low debt position, we have a bit more room to move than some others.

Fundamentally I believe that no club should merge or move unless its members want it, and no club should fold. Ideally 20 teams, the existing 18 plus Tassie and maybe Canberra?

But as supporters, we need to accept that clubs will have different sized memberships, crowds, etc. If we can make it work with 40k members, Richmond gets 90k, and Tassie 15k or 20k, then that's fine.

 

[madmug]

Firstly, thanks for paying off our debt. It's made us muchmore financially secure.

Secondly, don't hold your breath about Tasmania pulling out - a Tasmanian team (which I fully support, by the way) is probably at least a decade away now. And you'll need the tourism dollars that our games, and Hawthorn's, generates.

In the meantime, we'll do what everyone else is doing - try to grow our membership and commercial base while keeping a lid on expenses. And given our low debt position, we have a bit more room to move than some others.

Fundamentally I believe that no club should merge or move unless its members want it, and no club should fold. Ideally 20 teams, the existing 18 plus Tassie and maybe Canberra?

But as supporters, we need to accept that clubs will have different sized memberships, crowds, etc. If we can make it work with 40k members, Richmond gets 90k, and Tassie 15k or 20k, then that's fine.

I've seen lots of figures about how many Tasmanians are AFL club members. 30,000 is the lowest I've seen, so may provide a base line.

Between Hawthorn & North Melbn alone their are some 15000.

No doubt that with the Tasmanian love of footy, & expats living interstate, we'd get at least 40,000 if not over 50000 members.

IMHO.

 

[fargothegreat]

Firstly, thanks for paying off our debt. It's made us muchmore financially secure.

Secondly, don't hold your breath about Tasmania pulling out - a Tasmanian team (which I fully support, by the way) is probably at least a decade away now. And you'll need the tourism dollars that our games, and Hawthorn's, generates.

In the meantime, we'll do what everyone else is doing - try to grow our membership and commercial base while keeping a lid on expenses. And given our low debt position, we have a bit more room to move than some others.

Fundamentally I believe that no club should merge or move unless its members want it, and no club should fold. Ideally 20 teams, the existing 18 plus Tassie and maybe Canberra?

But as supporters, we need to accept that clubs will have different sized memberships, crowds, etc. If we can make it work with 40k members, Richmond gets 90k, and Tassie 15k or 20k, then that's fine.

You didn't really answer the question of how North Melbourne would be profitable without us??

Look, I agree with you that it would be much nicer for Tassie to be the 19th team.

But if we're sticking with 18 teams for the next decade, I just don't think it's fair for the AFL or club presidents to say that they can't afford Tasmania, when there are at least 5 clubs that we'd be more profitable than from Day 1. If we're going to have 18 teams, then they should be the strongest 18 teams in a national competition.

On membership numbers, I can't find last year's numbers, but in 2018 91,000 Tasmanians were AFL club members. It's not unrealistic to suggest that we'd have more members than North Melbourne in the first year, especially with them not playing here any more.

 

[big_e]

You didn't really answer the question of how North Melbourne would be profitable without us??

Look, I agree with you that it would be much nicer for Tassie to be the 19th team.

But if we're sticking with 18 teams for the next decade, I just don't think it's fair for the AFL or club presidents to say that they can't afford Tasmania, when there are at least 5 clubs that we'd be more profitable than from Day 1. If we're going to have 18 teams, then they should be the strongest 18 teams in a national competition.

On membership numbers, I can't find last year's numbers, but in 2018 91,000 Tasmanians were AFL club members. It's not unrealistic to suggest that we'd have more members than North Melbourne in the first year, especially with them not playing here any more.

How can we be profitable without Tasmania? There's no silver bullet, and to expect there to be is silly. It's just prudent, sustainable growth in revenue.

And your model of the strongest 18 teams is interesting. Is that done on a year by year basis? A Richmond supporter would know more than most that that would have meant your club would have had its head on the chopping block at different times. But you know what? You got your shit together - including by selling games - and now look at the club, just flying. But that's irrelevant, because that's not how the competition works.

It's x number of teams, and periodically another one joins. You wouldn't find many competitions in the world where in 123 years, only two clubs have left the league. It's that continuity that has led to the relative strength of the league compared to others in Australia. Imagine how poorer we would be as a sport if we lost the Bulldogs when they were struggling, or if St Kilda went down now - that's hundreds of thousands of people, and generations of links, that would be gone forever. I've never got the death-riding of other clubs that some people seem to enjoy. Usually from those whose clubs have never been under threat in their lifetime, with the odd one who wants to throw someone under the bus because they think it saves their club. It doesn't by the way; having one club disappear actually makes it easier to get rid of the next one.

And membership numbers, OK, I'll concede I was short of the expectations. But it's a moot point - you're not getting a club any time soon.

 

[Del191229]

Yet another Richmond supporter with a bizarre obsession with North.

It is like a medical condition.

 

[fargothegreat]

How can we be profitable without Tasmania? There's no silver bullet, and to expect there to be is silly. It's just prudent, sustainable growth in revenue.

And your model of the strongest 18 teams is interesting. Is that done on a year by year basis? A Richmond supporter would know more than most that that would have meant your club would have had its head on the chopping block at different times. But you know what? You got your shit together - including by selling games - and now look at the club, just flying. But that's irrelevant, because that's not how the competition works.

It's x number of teams, and periodically another one joins. You wouldn't find many competitions in the world where in 123 years, only two clubs have left the league. It's that continuity that has led to the relative strength of the league compared to others in Australia. Imagine how poorer we would be as a sport if we lost the Bulldogs when they were struggling, or if St Kilda went down now - that's hundreds of thousands of people, and generations of links, that would be gone forever. I've never got the death-riding of other clubs that some people seem to enjoy. Usually from those whose clubs have never been under threat in their lifetime, with the odd one who wants to throw someone under the bus because they think it saves their club. It doesn't by the way; having one club disappear actually makes it easier to get rid of the next one.

And membership numbers, OK, I'll concede I was short of the expectations. But it's a moot point - you're not getting a club any time soon.

Firstly, Richmond has never been like North. Yes, we've been broke, but we've always had a strong supporter base.

And I'm not deathriding your club. I don't want to lose any clubs. I just want a Tasmanian team, and I'm not going to cop the argument that the AFL can't afford it while clubs like yours, St Kilda and the Gold Coast Suns are sitting in the league.

I don't want you guys gone, I'm just saying that if the AFL say they can't afford us, then they can't afford you either.

 

[fargothegreat]

Yet another Richmond supporter with a bizarre obsession with North.

It is like a medical condition.

This has nothing to do with Richmond. I'm in this thread with my Tasmanian hat on.

 

[Bald]

If any team goes the popular opinion is that it'll be North. North don't want to go and Tasmania would prefer to have their own team, so no a team will not move from where they currently are and go to Tasmania.

 

[Del191229]

Firstly, Richmond has never been like North. Yes, we've been broke, but we've always had a strong supporter base.

And I'm not deathriding your club. I don't want to lose any clubs. I just want a Tasmanian team, and I'm not going to cop the argument that the AFL can't afford it while clubs like yours, St Kilda and the Gold Coast Suns are sitting in the league.

I don't want you guys gone, I'm just saying that if the AFL say they can't afford us, then they can't afford you either.

You don't actually know how much various clubs get do you?

 

[Del191229]

This has nothing to do with Richmond. I'm in this thread with my Tasmanian hats on.

FTFY

 

[big_e]

Firstly, Richmond has never been like North. Yes, we've been broke, but we've always had a strong supporter base.

And I'm not deathriding your club. I don't want to lose any clubs. I just want a Tasmanian team, and I'm not going to cop the argument that the AFL can't afford it while clubs like yours, St Kilda and the Gold Coast Suns are sitting in the league.

I don't want you guys gone, I'm just saying that if the AFL say they can't afford us, then they can't afford you either.

In 1993, after a decade of on-field struggles, Richmond's home attendances were ahead of only Brisbane, Sydney, Fitzroy and Footscray. You almost had premiership cups taken to pay off debts. Frankly, if you'd had another couple of lean years, it may well have been the Fitzroy Tigers.

Fair enough about not deathriding, you're just saying that you want Tasmania to replace an existing team in the league. Totes different.

 

[dylan93]

From all accounts it'll be a new team (TAS Govt and people prefer a new team), however I'm not exactly sure we have the talent pool for a 19th team yet.

I still see the main probability being GC fold somewhere between 25' and 30', and 18th licence given to Tasmania (35-40+ years after Tassie should've been granted a team).

North Melbourne and St. Kilda would be ones to look at financially int terms of relocation, and the fact that St. Kilda have been around for almost 150 years and have 1 flag to show from it. Both with membership tallies & attendances on the lower side of the spectrum.

 

[Del191229]

From all accounts it'll be a new team (TAS Govt and people prefer a new team), however I'm not exactly sure we have the talent pool for a 19th team yet.

I still see the main probability being GC fold somewhere between 25' and 30', and 18th licence given to Tasmania (35-40+ years after Tassie should've been granted a team).

North Melbourne and St. Kilda would be ones to look at financially int terms of relocation, and the fact that St. Kilda have been around for almost 150 years and have 1 flag to show from it. Both with membership tallies & attendances on the lower side of the spectrum.

Ahhhhh, you do know who you barrack for right?

 

[dylan93]

Ahhhhh, you do know who you barrack for right?

Sure do. The oldest club in the comp, the club that created the rules of the game we know and love.

 

[Del191229]

Sure do. The oldest club in the comp, the club that created the rules of the game we know and love.

Also the club that voted itself out of existence in a merger proposal.

 

[Freomaniac]

All very interesting, but what does that have to do with my point? Inner Brisbane wasn't a safe Labor voting area at that time (and a fair amount of it still isn't). Swing seats lead to more spending on things like stadia. It helped that the Gabba has test cricket which also lobbies for upgrades, whereas Princes Park and Whitten Oval won't.

My Point was look at Brisbanes history at the GABBA from 1993-2003. the point was Brisbane struggled in the Early 1990s but by the late 1990s, the crowds increased due to Brisbane being good and the stadium capacity increased too. Then they made grand finals in 2001-04 and the crowds increased due to the on field success and geting regular sell outs.

1993-4 Brisbane struggled but the Gabbas capacity was around 15-16,000. 1995-6 Brisbane made finals. It was around 1995-6 Brisbane started getting the occasional sell out at the gabbas, the capacity was around 25,000.

Then you had 2001, Brisbanes 1st flag, Gabbas Capacity was around 37,500. Brisbanes average crowds was around 25,000.

In 2002-3, that crowd average was around 30,000 and getting a few sell outs.

Docklands cost $460m, bearing in mind this was more than 20 years ago and things cost more now due to inflation and China driving up the price of materials. Kardinia Park cost $177 million for stages 1-4 of redevelopment. Stage 5 will cost an extra $102 million. Another comparable stadium is Metricon, which cost $144 million for redevelopment. You would imagine a 30k seater would cost a bit more than Metricon's 25k seater and a bit less than Kardinia's 36k.

So I don't think the cost would be as high as $300m, more like $140m given $35m has already been invested for playing AFLW there. Finding that money will be another issue though.

When you think about it, 100 million isnt a lot to the AFL.

Saying that, had the AFL put away 20-25% of their cash for the last 5-10 years, it would of soften the blow.