Player Watch Willie Rioli

[philthy05]

I'm trying to debate in good faith here Philthy, but when you don't read what I write or answer the specific questions I ask to help me better understand your argument, it feels like you're not offering the same in return.

I don't think Rozee is contesting the ball, I think he baulks, waiting to tackle. If he was contesting the ball, he would be trying to grab it. Which he does not do. He puts the breaks on instead.

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If Rozee is not trying to tackle here, then what is he doing? His arms are around Shiel, so giving him a hug maybe? Imagine a different hypothetical where Shiel doesn't burst free and Rozee clings on and drags him to ground. Would you agree he was trying to tackle then? Just because the tackle failed (quite spectacularly), doesn't mean he wasn't attempting to tackle In the first place.
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As for Marshall/T McCartin, he hits him in the head, with his hip. R4, Q2, ~11 mins in. Below is copied from my second post in this discussion.

Todd Marshall & Tom McCartin contest the ball (Note this is different from the Rozee/Shiel incident, where only Sheil was contesting the ball. Rozee stopped and waited to tackle)

Todd Marshall collects Tom McCartin's head with his hip, causing a concussion. Todd Marshall is not cited for this.

This is the question I posed along with this example:
If Marshall didn't get cited for actually concussing a player he was competing with for the ball, why would Shiel get cited for hypothetically concussing a player who did not contest the ball but waited to tackle?

Rozee wasn’t trying to tackle. Look at the stills you’ve shown.

In both rozee is in the exact same place, in the first he’s seen Shiel is going to get their first and has stopped.

Shiel is inside the logo and about to collect the ball.

In your second still rozee is still in the same place, edge of logo, Shiel has ran through him and collected him high.

Rozee did not tackle him.

That is as clear as day.

 

[RossFC]

 

[Prince St]

Well, according to reports this was our argument at the tribunal.

 

[PrisonBars4life]

Well, according to reports this was our argument at the tribunal.

 

[backtozero]

Still 1 week too many, but anyway we move on. Playing Norf this week so no big deal.

 

[PowerBaz]

Still 1 week too many, but anyway we move on. Playing Norf this week so no big deal.

Keen to see more of Evans.

 

[Coobk001]

I still hate that in the modern game, incidental arm contact in the wrong spot, by a pure flukey chance, gets 2 weeks.

99 times out of 100, that scenario is just an off the ball free. At the spot where the ball was. However in this one freak scenario, the Essendon player must've got hit in the absolute perfect spot, and goes down incredibly lightly (concerningly so), and as a result a standard screen/block action that happens tens of times each game ends in a hugely disproportionate suspension given the incredibly minor action that has occurred here.

I'll wear the modern rules, and am happy the tribunal was at least smart enough to downgrade it, but it's just hard to swallow that an accidental backhand could cost weeks these days and not just be a free against. It makes you extremely worried about how easily people could be rubbed out, but I guess that is countered by the pure mystery of whom might actually go down. Ie. Similar hits happen weekly, never penalised, because the player fights on. If they somehow go down though, you're cooked.

Shame for him, because he was finally hitting form after a slow start.

 

[Duckimus Prime]

And I'll finish with this one:

• R1 2021 - Dan Houston knees Curtis Taylor in the head spoiling the ball, causing concussion. Houston was not cited.
• I am very interested to see how this circumstance would be treated today. It's the only instance of concussion resulting from a knee in the marking contest that I can think of.

Brad Ebert against Collingwood. The concussion that actually put him out of the game for a significant amount of time, and resulted in him wearing the helmet.

No one, absolutely no one thinks a player going for a tackle and hitting their head on the player means that player getting tackled gets done. Absolutely no one (but you) thinks it’s remotely similar to the Shiel rozee collision.

The afl, even with all their inconsistencies do not take that to the tribunal.

The same for a player hitting his head on the ground in a regular tackle. Unless there’s a sling or reckless action, players do not get cited for that.

Its like you haven't been paying attention to footy in the last two years. There's multiple instances of players being suspended for normal tackles without slings or reckless actions that have been suspended.

Rozee gets concussed, shiel gets done for that hit.

No it’s or buts about it. It’s not even remotely contentious.

And there are multiple occasions where a player is not suspended just because they got a concussion.
Tom Lynch on Alex Keath, you know the reason why Keath wasn't playing against Port.
Andrew Brayshaw on Tom Liberatore just last week.
David McKay collision with Hunter Clark.

 

[Duckimus Prime]

Shiel still has a duty of care not to collect rozee in the head even if he did collect the ball 0.3 secs before hitting him.

And the outcome based afl rules on … surprise … outcomes.

Shiel wasn’t in any trouble because rozee doesnt have a glass jaw, otherwise Shiel would be at the tribunal.

Shiel wouldn’t have gotten off cause “but he had the ball a fraction of a sec before the hit”

No he would've gotten off because he was competing for the ball in a completely reasonable way. Without an alternative as to what is happening.
Something which has come up on multiple occasions.

 

[Duckimus Prime]

• Marshall tackled Paddy McCartin and his head hit the ground, concussed him, and he hasn't returned. Marshall wasn't cited.

This isn't accurate though. Marshall is on the ground with the ball, and Paddy comes down on top of him. Todd knocks the ball loose, and McCartin moving over the top of Marshall face plants in an attempt to reach the ball. That one is entirely his own doing.

 

[philthy05]

And there are multiple occasions where a player is not suspended just because they got a concussion.
Tom Lynch on Alex Keath, you know the reason why Keath wasn't playing against Port.
Andrew Brayshaw on Tom Liberatore just last week.
David McKay collision with Hunter Clark.

You’re bringing up the lynch one. You know why you remember it? And why I remember it? And why anyone who remembers it can recall it?

Because it was an anomaly. Lynch didn’t get off because the afl doesn’t punish that action! He got off because he’s a star kf playing on a popular vic team.

Dixon does that exact same action, he’s done.

That doesn’t mean it’s not a rule, that’s just the afl being corrupt.

You hit the head, player gets concussed, you go to tribunal. this shouldnt be news to anyone following football for the last few years.

Also shouldn’t be news, that the afl mrp is corrupt and will manufacture the result it wants when it wants to.

 

[philthy05]

No he would've gotten off because he was competing for the ball in a completely reasonable way. Without an alternative as to what is happening.
Something which has come up on multiple occasions.

There surely is no such thing as a rule that you can hit the head “if you’re competing for the ball in a necessary way”


A boys club member maybe could get away with it.


the day spp collects someone in the head and knocks them out, regardless of whether he had the ball, whether it was a necessary way of competing for the ball, or any other such “rule” he will be gone for so long when he returns he might be able to play next his own child in the father son rule.

 

[RossFC]

The monogram on this hat sucks.

 

[JimmyBC]

The monogram on this hat sucks.
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The media sucks more.

 

[Duckimus Prime]

There surely is no such thing as a rule that you can hit the head “if you’re competing for the ball in a necessary way”


A boys club member maybe could get away with it.


the day spp collects someone in the head and knocks them out, regardless of whether he had the ball, whether it was a necessary way of competing for the ball, or any other such “rule” he will be gone for so long when he returns he might be able to play next his own child in the father son rule.

You still haven't explained why Todd Marshall wasn't suspended for concussing Tom McCartin.

 

[philthy05]

You still haven't explained why Todd Marshall wasn't suspended for concussing Tom McCartin.

Because Tom ran head first into Todd who was picking up the ball. Todd wasn’t even moving towards Tom.

Absolutely no one with any brain cells thought todd was responsible , and it’s not at all like any case where a player runs through a player and catches him in the head.

 

[philreich]

I still hate that in the modern game, incidental arm contact in the wrong spot, by a pure flukey chance, gets 2 weeks.

99 times out of 100, that scenario is just an off the ball free. At the spot where the ball was. However in this one freak scenario, the Essendon player must've got hit in the absolute perfect spot, and goes down incredibly lightly (concerningly so), and as a result a standard screen/block action that happens tens of times each game ends in a hugely disproportionate suspension given the incredibly minor action that has occurred here.

I'll wear the modern rules, and am happy the tribunal was at least smart enough to downgrade it, but it's just hard to swallow that an accidental backhand could cost weeks these days and not just be a free against. It makes you extremely worried about how easily people could be rubbed out, but I guess that is countered by the pure mystery of whom might actually go down. Ie. Similar hits happen weekly, never penalised, because the player fights on. If they somehow go down though, you're cooked.

Shame for him, because he was finally hitting form after a slow start.

You'd be spewing if you were to miss out on a grand final because of an incident like that!!!

 

[GremioPower]

I’m still in awe that some people compared Rioli’s incident with Gaff’s.

There were people judging Rioli as if he had done what Leonardo did to Tab Ramos in the 1994 USA World Cup (which is way closer to what Gaff did, but still not the same):




Gaff was lucky to get only 8 games (and no criminal charges against him).

 

[Capital Power]

I’m still in awe that some people compared Rioli’s incident with Gaff’s.

There were people judging Rioli as if he had done what Leonardo did to Tab Ramos in the 1994 USA World Cup (which is way closer to what Gaff did, but still not the same):




Gaff was lucky to get only 8 games (and no criminal charges against him).

I thought at the time Gaff should have gotten 12 months, but that was the era of the "good bloke" defence. Thankfully we seem to have moved on from that, at least a little.

 

[1954]

I believe that is the 2nd concussion for Ridley from what have appeared to be fairly innocuous contacts to his face/head, and if I was related to him I would be suggesting he needs to seriously consider wearing a helmet for future games as obviously the consequences of continued concussions can be extremely serious.

 

[Tibbs]

You still haven't explained why Todd Marshall wasn't suspended for concussing Tom McCartin.

RLOL ...
Player A runs into and tackles player B.
Player A then climbs over Player B, falls over him and hits his head on the turf and gets concussed.
Player B gets suspended for concussing Player A.

Yep ... that sounds fair.

 

[Duckimus Prime]

RLOL ...
Player A runs into and tackles player B.
Player A then climbs over Player B, falls over him and hits his head on the turf and gets concussed.
Player B gets suspended for concussing Player A.

That's Paddy McCartin, not Tom McCartin.

Todd Marshall was involved when both McCartin brothers were concussed.

 

[Tibbs]

That's Paddy McCartin, not Tom McCartin.

Todd Marshall was involved when both McCartin brothers were concussed.

Oh, that one! How is that ever a free kick? Todd has eyes only for the ball, bends down and gathers with both hands, while TMac bends down too, but is too late, and Todd runs though him. His action is not a bump, he doesnt brace his shoulder into him, he just goes down for the ball. TMac actually side steps to he left, leaving his head in the way of Todd. It was a bad effort by him, leaving himself open to get hit in what is an impact sport. Both him and his brother have poor technique!

That is clearly just a football incident, and everyone else was of the same opinion!

 

[Sleezy]

Oh, that one! How is that ever a free kick? Todd has eyes only for the ball, bends down and gathers with both hands, while TMac bends down too, but is too late, and Todd runs though him. His action is not a bump, he doesnt brace his shoulder into him, he just goes down for the ball. TMac actually side steps to he left, leaving his head in the way of Todd. It was a bad effort by him, leaving himself open to get hit in what is an impact sport. Both him and his brother have poor technique!

That is clearly just a football incident, and everyone else was of the same opinion!

That's exactly my point.

The key factor is that Marshall has won the ball. If it was the other way around - T McCartin knocks Marshall out after he's won the ball - T McCartin would be rubbed out.

Same as Shiel/Rozee. Rozee baulks at the contest, instead choosing to sweat the tackle and can't handle Shiel's heat. If he had copped a head high hit and got concussed through poor technique it would just like T McCartin. Play on.

tribey you remember everything. Do you remember a game maybe 5 years ago where a spud (Melbourne player, maybe?) tackled Hartlett around the hips head first and knocked himself into next week?

 

[philthy05]

That's exactly my point.

The key factor is that Marshall has won the ball. If it was the other way around - T McCartin knocks Marshall out after he's won the ball - T McCartin would be rubbed out.

Same as Shiel/Rozee. Rozee baulks at the contest, instead choosing to sweat the tackle and can't handle Shiel's heat. If he had copped a head high hit and got concussed through poor technique it would just like T McCartin. Play on.

tribey you remember everything. Do you remember a game maybe 5 years ago where a spud (Melbourne player, maybe?) tackled Hartlett around the hips head first and knocked himself into next week?

The key factor wasn’t that todd had the ball.

The key factor was that Todd didn’t run through Tom and initiate contact with his head. Todd got to the ball first and Tom came in from the side and hit todd with his head.

Tom made that contact. Not Todd.


As I posted earlier, if having possession of the ball gave you immunity from causing head high contact… why the hell wouldnt we give Spp the ball and let him run through everyone on the field on his way to goal?