Politics Young people won't embrace progressive politics when they see its failures

[Seeds]

So which conservative counties should young people look at to see their success?
At the moment we have the Nordic model v Switzerland??

Are Neoliberalism policies Conservative?
Let’s look at the failures of privatisation…the private health system….the inequality that private schools are causing…

Then we can look at the Justice and prison systems.

Ignoring the us system i would say private health systems are less broken then the public system.

under the public system you can be stuck waiting years for surgery And months on end to see consultants. how is that not incredibly broken? The government is refusing to adequately fund the public health system and the system is rorted with corruption and red tape.

 

[Gethelred]

A popular train of thought on on the SRP is that our progressive youth combined with natural decline in the number of aged conservative voters will lead to the demise of the LNP, leaving the two popular parties being the Greens (left) and ALP (right). I think that's very presumptuous and unlikely.

There's another factor at play here.

Traditionally, property ownership and starting a family has placed men in stable, comfortable jobs that they mightn't have loved but they got enough to be content. This was a conservative-creation factory within the middle class; no matter how revolutionary you were in your teens, you cannot help but settle down once you a) have children and a partner and a bank loan for a house, as you now need stable income and interests rates to stay low, and b) you have immediately less freedom than you did before you got any of those things. You're more wedded to a capitalist framework; you've "opted in", and that's the seductive allure of capitalism. Share of our bounty, and become one of us; live in comfort and freedom and consummate materialism, get anything you want with a trip to the shops!

That's capitalism's strongest point: it's self-reinforcing. It's hard to criticize it from inside it, and it's next to impossible to have enough power to alter it from without.

But over the past 20 years, home ownership has become incredibly difficult for my generation. The internet has ensured that the ignorance conservatism thrives on doesn't eventuate in the same way, and wives frequently spend as much time in the office as their men do and between the two of them they still don't have enough money to purchase a house. While owning a home provides stability to a young family and allows that capitalism to bind you to it over time, an unstable living situation in which both parents have to work and to pay rent and to save up copious amounts of money in jobs they hate in order to even contend with investors does not bind you to conservatism but acts as a disincentive.

Then, you add the fact that the conservatives have genuinely gone bonkers. Worldwide. My generation (mid 30's) has both been alive long enough to remember better times economically, to have heard about and understood the effects of climate change when I was young and to have witnessed how things have changed in the span of my life, both from a statistics position - reflecting on the actual science - and an experiential one; we've seen the climate actively get hotter, the summers harsher. We've seen this, and we've watched decades of conservative parties dogwhistle directly at climate denial if not being outright advocates of it. We've seen religious parties rise and fall (Family First) and we've seen open racism on the right of the aisle (One Nation, the Nats, the Libs). We've seen more corruption from them and theirs than we have from labour forces (yes, Kwality, I know both sides of politics have their own corruption problems; just over the past 30 years, it's been Coalition feds and state governments that have been seen to be more corrupt than their counterparts) and we've seen things get worse under their stewardship, but - more to the point - we've seen it all without their rhetoric changing. They're saying the same thing they've said since Thatcher; 'end of history', 'greatest time to be alive', 'no governments or society, just people', despite none of it holding up to scrutiny if it ever did in the first place.

So on one hand, you've got the tradition forces which drive conservatism within the middle class being stymied due to housing uncertainty created by conservative government driven adverse property settings for non-investor class house buyers at one end, and you've the conservatives going nuts and pretending everything's fine on the other. They're coming and going and the funnel for the conservative talent is leaving the country because - in all honesty - why the **** would they stay here when there's more money to be made in Hong Kong, America, Europe, China?

There's more than an aging population dying off driving the rise of progressive politics, evolved. I'm actually a little sad that you don't see it.

 

[nut]

Ignoring the us system i would say private health systems are less broken then the public system.

under the public system you can be stuck waiting years for surgery And months on end to see consultants. how is that not incredibly broken? The government is refusing to adequately fund the public health system and the system is rorted with corruption and red tape.

Absolute garbage … the problem with the public system is the private system.

And why leave out the US?

Norway spends a fraction more per GDP and has a better public health system that is universal than our private system.

 

[Seeds]

Absolute garbage … the problem with the public system is the private system.

And why leave out the US?

Norway spends a fraction more per GDP and has a better public health system that is universal than our private system.

Leaving out the US cos i dont disagree with your point on the US.

explain how the problems with australias public health system is somehow the private systems fault? Wouldnt the problems with the public system be even worse without the private system?

the people who pay for private are effectively paying an additional voluntary tax to fund health services. This helps drive more staff and infrastructure into the health system. Without it queues in public hospitals would be even longer. What am I missing here?

 

[Not Important]

so evolved 1/2 drags up a flawed pejorative story as the o.p ( he really isn’t a rightist cos he said so - often). let’s overlook what’s occurring in oz as shown by kos somararis and roy morgan research. or what’s occurring in the united kingdom, the united states and new zealand to name but three.

oh, and it looks like peeps of his generation have twigged to the reactionaries' incompetence, lies, and corruption too. some peeps are just slow i guess.

 

[nut]

Leaving out the US cos i dont disagree with your point on the US.

explain how the problems with australias public health system is somehow the private systems fault? Wouldnt the problems with the public system be even worse without the private system?

the people who pay for private are effectively paying an additional voluntary tax to fund health services. This helps drive more staff and infrastructure into the health system. Without it queues in public hospitals would be even longer. What am I missing here?

Well the more a country moves to private Health the worse its health system becomes…


The US being the poster child for the private health industry … where profit dictates health policy.

Australia moving more and more towards the failed US system….

US spends over 20% of GDP on Health and 60 million people don’t even have basic health… those that do get ripped off and still have to pay. It’s sick….

Your example of the Australia public system versus private prices proves my point.

The more we move to a private health system the worse the over all outcome is for the population…. And collectively we all pay more.

It’s stupidity….

 

[evolved2]

Mmmh nah, I think this is a simplistic viewpoint.

As much I agree with most of your posting, this thread is a little vague.

'Progressive' is very nuanced and is not a one size fits all, even 'conservative' is not necessarily a one size fits all.

Certainly in my belief not every 'conservative' is 'right wing' < which is a belief among left wingers, even some moderate left wingers.

I'd personally like you to define what you mean by 'progressive' vs 'conservative' it's not as black and white as you paint it to be.

A progressive seeks change with the view that change will be positive while conservatives seek to maintain the status quo while maintaining that change will be negative.

I agree that the labels don't fully define our positions. I note that Not Important is labeling me a rightist. While I'm generally close to center in political questionnaires posted here and elsewhere, I'm definitely leaning right compared to most SRP posters.

 

[Carringbush2010]

A progressive seeks change with the view that change will be positive while conservatives seek to maintain the status quo while maintaining that change will be negative.

I agree that the labels don't fully define our positions. I note that Not Important is labeling me a rightist. While I'm generally close to center in political questionnaires posted here and elsewhere, I'm definitely leaning right compared to most SRP posters.

Well the counter to that is nuance, that being not every progressive change will be positive and not every conservation will be positive.

 

[evolved2]

There's another factor at play here.

Traditionally, property ownership and starting a family has placed men in stable, comfortable jobs that they mightn't have loved but they got enough to be content. This was a conservative-creation factory within the middle class; no matter how revolutionary you were in your teens, you cannot help but settle down once you a) have children and a partner and a bank loan for a house, as you now need stable income and interests rates to stay low, and b) you have immediately less freedom than you did before you got any of those things. You're more wedded to a capitalist framework; you've "opted in", and that's the seductive allure of capitalism. Share of our bounty, and become one of us; live in comfort and freedom and consummate materialism, get anything you want with a trip to the shops!

That's capitalism's strongest point: it's self-reinforcing. It's hard to criticize it from inside it, and it's next to impossible to have enough power to alter it from without.

But over the past 20 years, home ownership has become incredibly difficult for my generation. The internet has ensured that the ignorance conservatism thrives on doesn't eventuate in the same way, and wives frequently spend as much time in the office as their men do and between the two of them they still don't have enough money to purchase a house. While owning a home provides stability to a young family and allows that capitalism to bind you to it over time, an unstable living situation in which both parents have to work and to pay rent and to save up copious amounts of money in jobs they hate in order to even contend with investors does not bind you to conservatism but acts as a disincentive.

Then, you add the fact that the conservatives have genuinely gone bonkers. Worldwide. My generation (mid 30's) has both been alive long enough to remember better times economically, to have heard about and understood the effects of climate change when I was young and to have witnessed how things have changed in the span of my life, both from a statistics position - reflecting on the actual science - and an experiential one; we've seen the climate actively get hotter, the summers harsher. We've seen this, and we've watched decades of conservative parties dogwhistle directly at climate denial if not being outright advocates of it. We've seen religious parties rise and fall (Family First) and we've seen open racism on the right of the aisle (One Nation, the Nats, the Libs). We've seen more corruption from them and theirs than we have from labour forces (yes, Kwality, I know both sides of politics have their own corruption problems; just over the past 30 years, it's been Coalition feds and state governments that have been seen to be more corrupt than their counterparts) and we've seen things get worse under their stewardship, but - more to the point - we've seen it all without their rhetoric changing. They're saying the same thing they've said since Thatcher; 'end of history', 'greatest time to be alive', 'no governments or society, just people', despite none of it holding up to scrutiny if it ever did in the first place.

So on one hand, you've got the tradition forces which drive conservatism within the middle class being stymied due to housing uncertainty created by conservative government driven adverse property settings for non-investor class house buyers at one end, and you've the conservatives going nuts and pretending everything's fine on the other. They're coming and going and the funnel for the conservative talent is leaving the country because - in all honesty - why the * would they stay here when there's more money to be made in Hong Kong, America, Europe, China?

There's more than an aging population dying off driving the rise of progressive politics, evolved. I'm actually a little sad that you don't see it.

Development leads to increase in capital value, and Melbourne has undoubtedly benefited from the virtues of capitalism-fueled growth over the past 20 years. My first IP was in Caroline Springs. One lane in, one lane out, no easy freeway access. Each tenant applicant was white trash. The potential was there, but the negatives were just as pertinent. It's a much better place to live now which is reflected by an increase in property values.

Growth across Melbourne is something that's difficult to quantify for those who weren't privy to the transformation. If you buy a home in Melton, Footscray, Frankston, Dandenong, Pakenham or Sunshine in 2023, it's quite different to buying in those suburbs 20-30 years ago. That change is reflected by increased price. Yet we find 20-somethings demanding to know why they can't buy in those same suburbs for the inflation-adjusted equivalent of what their parents paid. I can't help but see that as ignorance with a touch of entitlement. While it's not easy to get a foot in the door, the formula hasn't changed: buy something affordable in the outer suburbs, wait for capital growth and/or wage increase, sell or repurpose as an IP and upgrade.

The main reason home ownership has become more difficult because our economy is a Ponzi that depends on population growth.

Conservatives have gone bonkers, yes. Progressives have gone bonkers too. Popularity of the Teals shows there's an appetite from centrist (pretend/RW/other) voters for environmental action even if they don't prove it by gluing themselves to roads.

It's extremely easy to walk into 100k+ employment in your early 20's these days. Probably never been easier. Opportunity abounds. Add flexible working arrangements, paid maternity/paternity leave, and subsidised childcare to that; I wonder what our youth are whinging about.

My generation was and is far more resilient than our current youth.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

My generation was and is far more resilient than our current youth.

Dunno man, you seem to complain a lot.

 

[Engimal v3]

A progressive seeks change with the view that change will be positive while conservatives seek to maintain the status quo while maintaining that change will be negative.

A status quo that represents a tiny slice of life when they were younger, ignoring that their glory days were also radically different from previous societies that existed throughout human history

 

[evolved2]

Dunno man, you seem to complain a lot.

The SRP is cheaper than therapy.

 

[evolved2]

A status quo that represents a tiny slice of life when they were younger, ignoring that their glory days were also radically different from previous societies that existed throughout human history

Radically different in what ways?

You're forgetting that us oldies vote for the benefit of our children.

 

[mr bagcroft]

Development leads to increase in capital value, and Melbourne has undoubtedly benefited from the virtues of capitalism-fueled growth over the past 20 years. My first IP was in Caroline Springs. One lane in, one lane out, no easy freeway access. Each tenant applicant was white trash. The potential was there, but the negatives were just as pertinent. It's a much better place to live now which is reflected by an increase in property values.

Growth across Melbourne is something that's difficult to quantify for those who weren't privy to the transformation. If you buy a home in Melton, Footscray, Frankston, Dandenong, Pakenham or Sunshine in 2023, it's quite different to buying in those suburbs 20-30 years ago. That change is reflected by increased price. Yet we find 20-somethings demanding to know why they can't buy in those same suburbs for the inflation-adjusted equivalent of what their parents paid. I can't help but see that as ignorance with a touch of entitlement. While it's not easy to get a foot in the door, the formula hasn't changed: buy something affordable in the outer suburbs, wait for capital growth and/or wage increase, sell or repurpose as an IP and upgrade.

The main reason home ownership has become more difficult because our economy is a Ponzi that depends on population growth.

Conservatives have gone bonkers, yes. Progressives have gone bonkers too. Popularity of the Teals shows there's an appetite from centrist (pretend/RW/other) voters for environmental action even if they don't prove it by gluing themselves to roads.

It's extremely easy to walk into 100k+ employment in your early 20's these days. Probably never been easier. Opportunity abounds. Add flexible working arrangements, paid maternity/paternity leave, and subsidised childcare to that; I wonder what our youth are whinging about.

My generation was and is far more resilient than our current youth

Entitlement.
The banner for alot of the youth today.
Alot, not all.

 

[faible]

My first IP

It's extremely easy to walk into 100k+ employment in your early 20's these days.

My generation was and is far more resilient than our current youth.

Classic

 

[Gethelred]

Development leads to increase in capital value, and Melbourne has undoubtedly benefited from the virtues of capitalism-fueled growth over the past 20 years. My first IP was in Caroline Springs. One lane in, one lane out, no easy freeway access. Each tenant applicant was white trash. The potential was there, but the negatives were just as pertinent. It's a much better place to live now which is reflected by an increase in property values.

Growth across Melbourne is something that's difficult to quantify for those who weren't privy to the transformation. If you buy a home in Melton, Footscray, Frankston, Dandenong, Pakenham or Sunshine in 2023, it's quite different to buying in those suburbs 20-30 years ago. That change is reflected by increased price. Yet we find 20-somethings demanding to know why they can't buy in those same suburbs for the inflation-adjusted equivalent of what their parents paid. I can't help but see that as ignorance with a touch of entitlement. While it's not easy to get a foot in the door, the formula hasn't changed: buy something affordable in the outer suburbs, wait for capital growth and/or wage increase, sell or repurpose as an IP and upgrade.

The main reason home ownership has become more difficult because our economy is a Ponzi that depends on population growth.

... all of which comes courtesy of settings installed by conservative, neoliberal government since Keating. Keating doesn't cop the horse's share of the blame, because his leadership lasted before the current epoch.

This doesn't negate what I said in any way: those younger than 35 are not becoming conservative at the moment because they cannot find a level of comfort in housing (whether due to higher rent prices or inability to compete in the property market) commensurate with previous generations.

Conservatives have gone bonkers, yes. Progressives have gone bonkers too. Popularity of the Teals shows there's an appetite from centrist (pretend/RW/other) voters for environmental action even if they don't prove it by gluing themselves to roads.

You missed this bit:

but - more to the point - we've seen it all without their rhetoric changing. They're saying the same thing they've said since Thatcher; 'end of history', 'greatest time to be alive', 'no governments or society, just people', despite none of it holding up to scrutiny if it ever did in the first place.

The issue with conservatives going nuts isn't just that they've gone nuts and that's an unattractive look. The issue is that by and large even the moderates are affecting the pretense that it's business as usual, that there's nothing wrong, nothing to see here. Times have changed. The world is wildly different than it was ten years ago; using the rhetoric that worked in the late 70's as though it's just as pertinent in 2023 is wild.

They're the Iraqi information minister meme. I don't like them, but memeable behaviour appeals to my generation and younger.

It's extremely easy to walk into 100k+ employment in your early 20's these days. Probably never been easier. Opportunity abounds. Add flexible working arrangements, paid maternity/paternity leave, and subsidised childcare to that; I wonder what our youth are whinging about.

My generation was and is far more resilient than our current youth.

The paragraph above does not match the paragraph below, and 100k employment doesn't buy what it used to get you.

You're also looking at this from what seems like a position of privilege. You know your own shit; you're reasonably comfortable from the sound of it. People my generation and lower aren't earning the money available to them. They're stuck at university for longer to even get a foot in the door; they're struggling to rent because rent's nuts, the cost of food's nuts, transport's nuts. HELP debt is no longer stuck at 0.3% interest; I paid 7.8% interest on mine last year, which equated to about 5000 dollars.

One wonders how you'd have gone, walking into today's market rather than having existed within it for more than 20 years. Would you have walked into that 100000+ job? Or would you have embraced the nihilism that your BF persona has embraced, and gone on overseas trip after trip to get away from what feels like a losing battle the way an awful lot of my generation have?

 

[evolved2]

Classic

I'm in my early 40's and bought property at 21. I'm 'grooming' both kids towards easy 6 figure pathways.

It's unfortunate your dad isn't as wise as me.

 

[faible]

I'm in my early 40's and bought property at 21. I'm 'grooming' both kids towards easy 6 figure pathways.

It's unfortunate your dad isn't as wise as me.

Another classic, I haven't seen the 'my dad is better than your dad' argument since primary school, but here we are.

 

[evolved2]

Another classic, I haven't seen the 'my dad is better than your dad' argument since primary school, but here we are.

That's not my argument.

 

[Mofra]

My generation was and is far more resilient than our current youth.

That begs the question - why was your generation such shit parents and role models?
The 'current youth' are a result of the environment that produced them.

 

[nut]

Entitlement.
The banner for alot of the youth today.
Alot, not all.

The things some boomers were entitled to-
Free Tertiary education
Cheap housing that a single wage earner could afford.
Lower taxes due partly to cuts in education spending After they needed it..
The massive middle class welfare perks introduced under Howard..
Massively Rising house prices due to the introduction of the GST, FHBGs etc….

And more importantly Cheaper avocados on toast.

 

[Not Important]

A progressive seeks change with the view that change will be positive while conservatives seek to maintain the status quo while maintaining that change will be negative.

I agree that the labels don't fully define our positions. I note that Not Important is labeling me a rightist. While I'm generally close to center in political questionnaires posted here and elsewhere, I'm definitely leaning right compared to most SRP posters.

well evolved 1/2, the thing is to watch what peeps write here. and your posts are overwhelming right. including often deriding the left with looney left-like comments.


the fact is we are in precarious fiscal positions worldwide, not bc of progressives but bc of the right. greed, avarice, and selfishness is the credo of capitalism. until we have fairer more equitable societies where acquisitiveness and self-interest aren’t front and centre we’ll continue to not only have fiscal issues, the consequences of which extend from the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer to turning away from the ravages of climate change cos peeps are more concerned with today’s comforts. and tension and wars.

 

[evolved2]

That begs the question - why was your generation such s**t parents and role models?
The 'current youth' are a result of the environment that produced them.

I can't substantiate my opinion on the topic with objective evidence.

Parenting styles go in waves. Each generation sees flaws in how they were raised and tries to correct for that; that often leads to poor outcomes. Nobody has a PhD in parenting before the first baby pops out, right?

My generation had the freedom to do what they wanted to as kids. We learned through trial and error, and were often away from home all day with no means of contact from/to our parents. The correction to that is helicopter parenting. 'We' see our mistakes and want to ensure our children don't do the same.

 

[peetoo]

I can't substantiate my opinion on the topic with objective evidence.

Parenting styles go in waves. Each generation sees flaws in how they were raised and tries to correct for that; that often leads to poor outcomes. Nobody has a PhD in parenting before the first baby pops out, right?

My generation had the freedom to do what they wanted to as kids. We learned through trial and error, and were often away from home all day with no means of contact from/to our parents. The correction to that is helicopter parenting. 'We' see our mistakes and want to ensure our children don't do the same.

Maybe the helicopter parented kids will swing the other way with their kids

 

[evolved2]

One wonders how you'd have gone, walking into today's market rather than having existed within it for more than 20 years. Would you have walked into that 100000+ job? Or would you have embraced the nihilism that your BF persona has embraced, and gone on overseas trip after trip to get away from what feels like a losing battle the way an awful lot of my generation have?

I didn't walk into a 100k job.

My first semi-professional employment was as an intern earning $25k or thereabouts. My wife was pregnant in our graduation pics. My dad advised us against buying property in 2001 because it was overvalued.

We earned this the hard way.

How would I go walking into today's market? The same way.