Your ranking of the following and give reasons why...

[The Dutchman!]

My ranking are as noted...

Coaches:

D.Pagan
M.Blight
R.D.Barassi
A.Jeans
T.Hafey
D.Parkin
M.Malthouse

Players:

L.Matthews
W.Carey
D.Brereton
T.Lockett
J.Dunstall
G.Ablett
Peter Matera
P.Daicos
Andrew Jarman
K.Barlett

Note: No Bombers = no bias!


Thoughts?

 

[Grendel]

Before we start Dutch, should we all exclude ourselves if they are from our supported sides to sidestep our bias too?

And how do you want it, top ten? Or just the best we have seen personally?

Cheers

 

[Grendel]

Okay my best coaches in no order,

Pagan
Parkin
Barrassi
Northey
Wallace
oh alright Sheedy
Stephens
Walls
Eade

Players is a trifle harder. Heres a shot at it trying to get the older players out of the way first,

Doull
Blight
KB
Southby
Croswell
Templeton
Quinlan
Jezza
Dempsey
Madden
Krakouers
Weightman
Wilson
Glendinning
ND
Watson
TD
Daicos
Lyon
Hawkins
Flower
Schimma
Healy Gerrard
Williams Greg
Lockett
Ablett
Carey
Bradley
Matera
Stynes
Hird
Buckley
Harvey
Grant
Mainwaring
Jarman (sorry just to good to leave out, besides he won Adelaide two flags)
and thats of the top of my head.

Geez theres been some good footballers going around.

But how hard is it not nominating your own!lol

 

[The Dutchman!]

Jesus cristt

Stick to the ones nominated - otherwise this will just get enormous - I'm just interested in what people think of the 6-7 coaches and 10 or so players I nominated - not the rest missing...

But admirable list Grendel except ermmm WALLS!!!!!????!!!!

 

[Interesting!]

I'm sure it's an oversight but seriously how could anybody rate Northey, Wallace, Walls & Eade ahead of Hafey?

As to whether Sheedy, Pagan & Parkin match up to him statistically is a reasonable arguement.

Barassi's stints at Melbourne & Sydney tarnish his 'supercoach' image.

Malthouse will be judged in two years or so. If he can rescue the rusted old battleship it will speak volumes.

Eade is the most over-rated coach going around. His one real claim to fame is making football ugly to watch.

Sheedy & Parkin are interesting. Sheedy has spent entire life at a well run rich club riding the waves. Parkin had outstanding success at Hawthorn & moderate success at Fitzroy before returning to Carlton to win them another flag in his second stint &, against popular belief, keep them from sinking into midfield nothingness.

The thing is it is easier to judge 'career coaches' who've performed at a high standard at varied clubs - rich & poor.

Of those still in the caper (or just retired) IMHO :

1. Parkin
2. Pagan
3. Blight (big test coming up - & disregarding his stint at North)
4. Sheedy (stick to coaching Sheeds & leave the media work to those who don't come across as a git)
5. Malthouse
6. Wallace
7. Daniher
The rest either don't rate or haven't earned their stripes yet.

Overall, nobody will come close to McHale or Smith but if Sheedy keeps going he may get close.

I've just checked with the bookies & this topic is a 3/2 chance of being derailed by petty ingrates & 7/2 to make it past the opening page without getting derailed.

 

[dees01]

I can't believe people have left out Norm Smith the greatest coach of all. Melbourne played in EVERY Grand Fianl between 1954 and 1960. Pretty good to me.

 

[Drakey]

What about Jock McHale??????

 

[Interesting!]

Errrm.....I actually said that nobody is close to Jock & Normie directly above.

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

Norms little brother Len was a better coach than Norm its just that he had much less talent to work with at Fitzroy.

I credit Len with inventing the "Modern Game". He had to really because he had a squad at Fitzroy in the 60's that lacked height and strength, so he had to invent a new way of playing football that would make his team competitive. This new game, with its emphasis on running, possession, hand skills and positional play was the same formula that Ron Barassi took to Carlton and which won that famous GF in 1970.

cheers

 

[Dan26]

Yeah, Norm Smith stufed up when he left the Dees to go to a struggling side. So much for the coach of the century.

Pagan is the best coach in the AFL, and in my opinion, the greatest ever.

Sheedy has missed the fianls 5 times. Pagan has never, and will never miss the finals. Have a look at his record :

9 consecutive under 19's Grand Finals. If anyone says he had good talent to work with, I'll scream. In the under 19's, there is a turnover of players every 2 years, yet, despite this, he still got them into 9 Grand Finals in a row.

He then left North to coach Essendon reserves for a year. One year, one premiership. 22-3 overall, that year including finals.

He then left Essendon to join North seniors. He joined a rabble. North hadn't made the finals in 6 years and a few weeks earlier had just suffered a 150 point loss to Adelaide in an Ansett up match. They were shit.

They were in turmoil.

Despite this, he took them to half a game off top spot, with the best percentage in the competiton in 1993. The next 7 years after that has resulted in 7 consecutive preliminary finals.

They gut is a freak. A legend. An absolute coaching freak. I am truly astounded and amazed at his record of taking a a shit side like North to glory year after year.

As I said, his under19's record is unbelievable, since there is a turnover of players every 2 years, yet he kept on making Grand Finals.

No coach, in VFL/AFL history can claim to be as consistent at making finals as Denis Pagan. When he retires from coaching, he will be the greatest of all time. If he's not, he should be. I cannot EVER imagine, or envisage a Pagan coached team missing the finals, like Norm Smith did, Sheedy has, Parkin has, or Malthouse has. I can't imagine Pagan missing the finals once, let alone 5 times.

[This message has been edited by Dan24 (edited 14 November 2000).]

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Sheesh! The topic wasn't who was better than who across the board. It wasn't your best of list. He asked you to offer what you thought of his rankings and comment on each name It doesn't mean that people who aren't on the list don't rate higher. It's Dutchman's opinion.

There was no alterior motives. Getting so you can't pose a question around here without people thinking you are up to something.

Rank the guys who are there in order compared to each other regardless of whether any of them would make your top 100!!

 

[dees01]

Yeah Dan, seven straight preliminary finals vs seven straight Grand Finals. I wonder what I'd rather have???

 

[CJH]

I agree that you cant fault the record of Denis Pagan. So far!

It will be interesting in 20 years time to see what kind of legacy he leaves behind. By this I mean in a family tree kind of way.

Consider Tom Hafey and what he has left
behind in terms of proteges. How many coaches are descended from him? Heaps, with Sheedy as the star pupil.

We are now starting to see third generation Hafey coaches such as Bomber Thompson and (soon to be) Mark Harvey.

It is this kind on legacy that Pagan will need to leave before he is considered great.

------------------
This is a hallucination and these faces are in a dream. A computer generated environment; a fantasy island you can do anything and not have to face the consequences.

 

[Grendel]

D.Pagan, Best coach of modern times, but has been gifted with the players at his disposal who have been able to implement a "Pagan" game plan to perfection. Stating that i still feel even if he had been at another team (the Hawks for instance) he would be a success. 9

M.Blight, the short term man. Seems to be able to extract the maxium from his players in a short period, but is then left with nowhere to go. Doesnt seem to know how to bring in young blood, but is good at cutting dead wood and reinforcing the 'core' group that is at his club. Might be to intense for his own good and therefore only ever be a 3/4 year option. Saying that, its normally a pretty good 3/4 years. 7 1/2


D.Parkin, to me is the real instigator of modern football. The one who first came up with match reports, scouting the opposistion forward planning and being meticulous in the small details. 8

R.D.Barassi, was more a success through the old fashioned fear factor, ie berate, cajole and threats from what i can see. Also realied again heavily on champions and did struggle at Melbourne where the game seemed to have passed him by. Sydney restored some gloss as he can take credit for (some of) the beginnings of the turnaround from the rabble they were. 8

A.Jeans, pass to close to home

T.Hafey, not my flavour. Had an awesome team with the Tiges of the late 60's early 70's and should have coached them to the status they held. Did okay with the Woods, but even then his reluctance to change with the times was starting to show. Last of the old time coaches, still shows in his radio commentary. 8

M.Malthouse, to defensive minded. Should have done better with the players he had at the WC (at least one more flag, maybe two). One game plan and thats to restrict the opposistion. Is being out coached by guys like Wallace and Eade now. To me, is not the coach the Woods needed, overated imo.
6 1/2

Players

L.Matthews, hell i dont care about the bias, best ever, EASY. 10

W.Carey, has to be up there as one of the all time greats, been suberb for much of his career. Has it all and really its all been said. Champion. 9 1/2

D.Brereton, well you know what i reckon, one things for sure, better than Kernahan lol. 9

T.Lockett, undisciplined thug at the Saints, disciplined thug at the Swans. The difference in attitude turned him into the greatest scoring full forward ever. 9

J.Dunstall, unlucky footballer in some aspects (this is personally, not team wise) two knee injurys and the skull fracture stopped him from being the goal scoring record holder. To many say he was just a mark and lead. No FF ever tackled or chased like he did. Kicked half his career goals after 92 when the Hawks werent exactly the power that they were. Best footballer of the eighties imho. 9 1/2

G.Ablett, should have been the best of all time, most naturally gifted of that there is no question. Trouble was, he was trouble. Sad i suppose but no one ever said he was a Rhodes scholar (Fitzy was though!) 9

Peter Matera, best winger ive seen. 8 1/2

P.Daicos, awesome foot skills,superb player in a (for most of his career) average sides. Should have been a centerman but was forced to play forward through the Woods lack of goalscoring. Marvel to watch.
Andrew Jarman, dickhead. 8

K.Barlett, simply the greatest goal sneak that will ever be. Hated that little bastard SO MUCH. But by god he could play the game. So bloody quick, did anyone ever catch him and snot the little $&#^%$. No, he was just to good. He and Matthews stand head and shoulders over other rovers (if that makes sense lol) 9

ps sorry about the confusion Dutch, but it was 4am when i read your first post. So ive tried to make up for it with a bit of detail, took me an HOUR! You better enjoy it mate, or watch out

Cheers

[This message has been edited by Grendel (edited 18 November 2000).]

 

[CURVE]

Coaches
1. Denis Pagan
The remainder - we have the best, so stuff the rest.

Players
1. Wayne Carey
2. Tony Lockett
3. Leigh Matthewa
4. Dermot Brereton
The remainder - over rated.

 

[CQ]

jock mchale was the best coach. 4 in a row.

 

[The Dutchman!]

Grendel

Sorry. Taken me a while to find time to check back but a good read.

Still no bloody ranking though!!!

PS: ODNB, mate, for a blues man you're alright...

 

[RICE80SF]

I don't like ranking these guys but for you Dutchy I'll make an exception

, 'cause that's the kinda guy I am

, :rolleyes : . Ok Dutchy, you want it you got it Buddy. I want to know why you picked this bunch though Dutchy?

Coaches:

4.D.Pagan - 2 flags, sensational record, but in order to be a true great, must do it a couple more times with a second core of players.
6.M.Blight - 2 flags back to back, the Bart Cummings of football, got 'em up at the perfect time. Alot of luck involved however, not all his doing, certainly not one of the greats, YET.
2.R.D.Barassi - 4 premierships, great inovator "handball, handball, handball". Pulled it from the fire in '70 and did well to bring all those ego's together at North. Tarnished by failures elsewhere
1.A.Jeans - 4 premierships 1 with St Kilda, this guy had an amazing presence I think, you can tell the respect his players had for him. Dermie, Dipper, Dunstall all talk about him in reverend tones, it's spooky. You get the impression they'd rather be burnt alive than dissapoint the man. I don't realy count his time at Richmond, only there for a year.
5.T.Hafey - 2 flags, great record with the Tigers but long stints with Pies, Cats and Swans yeilded little.
3.D.Parkin - 4 flags, excellent communicator and success at two clubs is hard to achieve.
7.M.Malthouse - 2 Flags, should've had more, overrated. As someone else said, far too defensive.

Players:

2.L.Matthews - didn't see enough of him but must have been awfully, awfully "SPECIAL".
1.W.Carey - best I've ever seen.
5.D.Brereton - PRESENCE, One of the last players that guys were scared of, and I'm glad he had his quiet games against the Dons

.
3.T.Lockett - Goal kicking machine, very, very accurate.
4.J.Dunstall - Ultimate pro, coaches dream. Never ever let his side down.
6.G.Ablett - a freak, the guy was sensational, consistency and defence his only query.
9.Peter Matera - great wingman, sensational running and goal kicking ability(Mainwaring was better though IMHO) has faded badly the last few years though.
8.P.Daicos - Another freak, could do anything with a footy.
100.Andrew Jarman - you meant Darren I'm hoping

.
7.K.Barlett - great small forward, only Daicos has been better. Put him above Daics for longevity and finals performances. He made the bests for every final he played in, outstanding.

Cheers.


[This message has been edited by RICE80SF (edited 17 November 2000).]

[This message has been edited by RICE80SF (edited 17 November 2000).]

 

[Grendel]

Fixed the ratings Dutch. Check the thread again and ive given the whole lot ratings on a total out of ten, ten being the best, and so on. Hope its clearer now.