Your Top 20 NBA players of all time - nbaman edition!

[Surkin]

1. MJ
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Big O
5. Magic
6. Larry Bird
7. Tim Duncan
8. Kareem
9. Shaq
10. Kobe
11. The Logo
12. The Dream
13. Elgin Baylor
14. LeBron
15. Dr J
16. Moles Malone
17. Bob Pettit
18. Moses Malone
19. Big E
20. John Stockton

 

[jod23]

The real world I'd say.

Shaq's dominance changed the rules of the game. Hakeem was prettier to watch and a defensive force but Shaq was unstoppable in his prime.

Changed the rules? What rules?

Shaq has said so himself. The only time he ever got shown up was when he played Hakeem in the NBA Finals. He got completely smashed. Embarrassed almost at how much better Olajuwon was than him.

I love Shaq, dominant player, but he's not better than Hakeem. What always bothered me about Shaq was that for his sheer size and intimidation he was a weak defensive player. Never made an ALL D first team. Didnt have great shot blocking numbers for a bloke his size.

You talk about all the greats at the 5, Wilt, Russell, Olajuwon, D-Rob, Ewing, Kareem etc, they all did it on the defensive end. Shaq not so much. Plus he was a terrible free throw shooter so was unreliable in the clutch.

On pure basketball ability and greatness. Hakeem Olajuwon was the better player.

 

[jod23]

I said this in the All time Draft thread but if you go back and watch some games there's no way you'd have Pippen ahead of Barkley.

There was that whole sooky la la when he wouldn't re-enter a play off game because Phil Jackson didn't give him the last shot thing as well.

Stockton and Robinson is debatable but Sir Charles, no way.

And Kobe should be top 10.

Charles Barkley doesnt have a ring though. Scottie has 6.

Just on the sooky lala play where he sat out the final play cos it was drawn up for Kukoc. Yeah it was a shitty thing to do and he took flak for it and he apologized for it. But I get it. For years and years he sat in the shadow of the GOAT. Then he finally gets his team, plays outta his skin, leads the Bulls to 55 wins. Big important game on the line. Oh finally im gonna get a shot to be the hero instead of going to MJ. Then they draw up a play for Kukoc. I think id flip out a little too.

 

[PP34]

It's unfair to say players are better than another player because they have a ring or multiple rings.

 

[peternorth]

Changed the rules? What rules?

Shaq has said so himself. The only time he ever got shown up was when he played Hakeem in the NBA Finals. He got completely smashed. Embarrassed almost at how much better Olajuwon was than him.

I love Shaq, dominant player, but he's not better than Hakeem. What always bothered me about Shaq was that for his sheer size and intimidation he was a weak defensive player. Never made an ALL D first team. Didnt have great shot blocking numbers for a bloke his size.

You talk about all the greats at the 5, Wilt, Russell, Olajuwon, D-Rob, Ewing, Kareem etc, they all did it on the defensive end. Shaq not so much. Plus he was a terrible free throw shooter so was unreliable in the clutch.

On pure basketball ability and greatness. Hakeem Olajuwon was the better player.

shaq rated george mikan as the bestest laker big man eva.

It's unfair to say players are better than another player because they have a ring or multiple rings.

like what u did there. td has more rings than kg, thus....

 

[PP34]

shaq rated george mikan as the bestest laker big man eva.



like what u did there. td has more rings than kg, thus....

It's not just about TD vs KG. I hate in pro sports how people use rings as a big factor in all time discussions. Basketball is a team sport. Every championship team has had great all around talent and chemistry.

 

[raffrox]

Changed the rules? What rules?

Elimination of the illegal defense rule and making zone defense legal.

Pretty widely acknowledged.

 

[raffrox]

It's not just about TD vs KG. I hate in pro sports how people use rings as a big factor in all time discussions. Basketball is a team sport. Every championship team has had great all around talent and chemistry.

Agreed. Might as well concede jod if you need to use the rings argument to say Pippen is better.

Robert Horry must be close to top 50 then.

 

[raffrox]

Just on the sooky lala play where he sat out the final play cos it was drawn up for Kukoc. Yeah it was a shitty thing to do and he took flak for it and he apologized for it. But I get it. For years and years he sat in the shadow of the GOAT. Then he finally gets his team, plays outta his skin, leads the Bulls to 55 wins. Big important game on the line. Oh finally im gonna get a shot to be the hero instead of going to MJ. Then they draw up a play for Kukoc. I think id flip out a little too.

Shows he wasn't up to it

 

[jod23]

Shows he wasn't up to it

Whether he was up to it or not we will never know. Maybe Phil draws up the play for him and he makes the winner. We'll never know. All im saying is that I understand why he flipped out.

Rings do count im afraid when it comes to talking about greatness because the simple fact of the matter is that the greats win. Jordan, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, West, Cousy, Duncan... go on and on. The greats win!

Pippen has 6 rings. That shit counts.

 

[jod23]

Agreed. Might as well concede jod if you need to use the rings argument to say Pippen is better.

Robert Horry must be close to top 50 then.

Rings carry large weight when rating players but only if they were a key reason behind the ring. Horry wasnt, yeah he hit some big shots in key games but a star that carried them through games he was not. Same for guys like Kerr who has 5 rings but he wasnt the star of the team.

 

[jod23]

Elimination of the illegal defense rule and making zone defense legal.

Pretty widely acknowledged.

Yeah not really that widely acknowledged.

Care to give me reasons why Shaq was better than Olajuwon?

They met in the NBA Finals once and Hakeem swept Shaq's Orlando. Owned them. Hakeem is deadly on offence and a beast on defence. He is a better basketball player than Shaq.

 

[peternorth]

this is fast turning into a jod (wce) vs raffox (freo) thread

 

[PP34]

Whether he was up to it or not we will never know. Maybe Phil draws up the play for him and he makes the winner. We'll never know. All im saying is that I understand why he flipped out.

Rings do count im afraid when it comes to talking about greatness because the simple fact of the matter is that the greats win. Jordan, Magic, Bird, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, West, Cousy, Duncan... go on and on. The greats win!

Pippen has 6 rings. That shit counts.

So why do you have Elgin Baylor at 11? He never won a ring.

I'm sorry but greats win with other great players around them.

Jordan had Scottie and Dennis Rodman.

Magic had Kareem and Worthy.

Bird had McHale and Parish.

Wilt had Greer, Cunningham, Goodrich and West.

Kareem had the big-O and Magic.

Russell had stacked teams with Cousy, Havlicek, Heinsohn and more.

West had Goodrich and Wilt.

Cousy was also a member of stacked Celtics teams.

Duncan had Ginobili, Parker and the Admiral.


Greats win with greats. Why do you think LeBron left Cleveland? Yes he deserve the hate but at the end of the day he realised that he had to be with other stars to win a title.

Rings are overrated when talking about great players.



Also Shaq was a better player than Hakeem.

Prime Shaq was better than Prime Hakeem.

What you saw was Baby Shaq in the finals against Hakeem. He still did pretty bloody well though. 28ppg at 22 years of age against one of the best centers and defensive centers of all time in his prime was outstanding.

Shaq is far superior to Hakeem. Hakeem was a great player don't get me wrong but he wasn't as dominant as Diesel.

 

[raffrox]

this is fast turning into a jod (wce) vs raffox (freo) thread

Freos gotta win at something, damn it.

 

[raffrox]

Yeah not really that widely acknowledged.

Care to give me reasons why Shaq was better than Olajuwon?

They met in the NBA Finals once and Hakeem swept Shaq's Orlando. Owned them. Hakeem is deadly on offence and a beast on defence. He is a better basketball player than Shaq.

Why was the rule changed then? Shaq defintely was at least a factor.

Also Shaq is 8th all time in blocks and 15th all time for blocks per game (2.2). Hardly a mug when it came to shot blocking.

 

[raffrox]

I'll have a go instead of bitchin'

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Magic Johnson
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. Larry Bird
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Jerry West
11. Tim Duncan
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. Elgin Baylor
14. Moses Malone
15. Julius Erving
16. John Havlicek
17. Karl Malone
18. Charles Barkley
19. Bob Pettit
20. John Stockton

If possible I reckon Stockton and Malone are under-rated. They never won a ring but really were very good for a stupidly long period of time. Kobe is the only modern day player that is close to being able to get his team to win just because he's there. I couldn't really split Hakeem and Duncan so those two could be swapped.

 

[The_Flying_Egg]

Greats win with greats. Why do you think LeBron left Cleveland? Yes he deserve the hate but at the end of the day he realised that he had to be with other stars to win a title.

Rings are overrated when talking about great players.

Also Shaq was a better player than Hakeem.

Prime Shaq was better than Prime Hakeem.

Shaq is far superior to Hakeem. Hakeem was a great player don't get me wrong but he wasn't as dominant as Diesel.

Not as dominant as Shaq?? Hakeem is proof that u can without greats playing with greats. He won 2 titles with little more than role players. And unlike Shaq he dominated at both ends of the court, there was 50% of the game they weren't even comparable at

And far superior??? Surely Hakeem is at least close??

 

[PP34]

Not as dominant as Shaq?? Hakeem is proof that u can without greats playing with greats. He won 2 titles with little more than role players. And unlike Shaq he dominated at both ends of the court, there was 50% of the game they weren't even comparable at

And far superior??? Surely Hakeem is at least close??

I'll give you the fact that Hakeem was obviously a far superior defender but Shaq wasn't a scrub defender.
Now let's face it, the Houston Rockets would have never won two titles if Michael Jordan didn't take a break.

The Rockets may not have had another star in 94' but in 95' they had Drexler who was no scrub. Like I said I doubt they would've won those titles if MJ was playing. Yes, I know he was playing in 95 but he wasn't in good shape and Chicago's bigs were dominated by Shaq and Horace.

Hakeem never put up these kind of numbers in the Finals.

Shaq 2000: 38.0ppg, 16.7rpg and 61.1 FG%.
Shaq 2001: 33.0ppg, 15.8rpg and 57.3 FG%
Shaq 2002: 36.3ppg, 12.3rpg and 59.5 FG%

Shaq is one of the most dominant forces in NBA history. Unstoppable.

Hakeem was great but he wasn't as good as Shaq.

 

[OrdinaryJoel]

Been only following the 'A for about 4 and a bit years, but I'll take a shot at this...!

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Oscar Robertson
8. Jerry West
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Julius Erving
11. Elgin Baylor
12. Charles Barkley
13. Karl Malone
14. Shaquille O'Neal
15. George Mikan
16. Bob Pettit
17. John Stockton
18. Patrick Ewing
19. Tim Duncan
20. Elvin Hayes

 

[PP34]

Been only following the 'A for about 4 and a bit years, but I'll take a shot at this...!

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Oscar Robertson
8. Jerry West
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Julius Erving
11. Elgin Baylor
12. Charles Barkley
13. Karl Malone
14. Shaquille O'Neal
15. George Mikan
16. Bob Pettit
17. John Stockton
18. Patrick Ewing
19. Tim Duncan
20. Elvin Hayes

Wilt over Bill Russell. No.

Shaq needs to be higher around 4 or 5.

No Kobe Bryant and you listed Ewing in your top 20?

Where's Moses Malone?

Sorry, but George Mikan was a great player in a horrible era of basketball full of short people. Shouldn't be in the top 20.

Julius Erving is too high.

 

[peternorth]

Wilt over Bill Russell. No.

Shaq needs to be higher around 4 or 5.

No Kobe Bryant and you listed Ewing in your top 20?

Where's Moses Malone?

Sorry, but George Mikan was a great player in a horrible era of basketball full of short people. Shouldn't be in the top 20.

Julius Erving is too high.

mikan defined center. underrated and underappreciated by young'uns

have i missed your top 20?

 

[PP34]

mikan defined center. underrated and underappreciated by young'uns

have i missed your top 20?

Still waiting till I get time.

Yes he did define center but let's face it he's not a top 20 player.

 

[peternorth]

Still waiting till I get time.

Yes he did define center but let's face it he's not a top 20 player.

fair enough. where approximately would you have kg?

 

[PP34]

fair enough. where approximately would you have kg?

Might fit him in at 19 or 20 or I may not. He's definitely a top 25 player and you could make an argument for him being in the top 20. I'll have to compare players.