Training 2024 Preseason Training Thread

[ghostdog]

It absolutely isn’t “always a valid argument” - if we had twice as many injuries as other sides, then it could be valid.

Of every top 8 side in 2023, Collingwood were the only team with less injuries than us.

Injuries aren’t why we finished 11th. Being the 11th best side is why we finished 11th.

Rubbish. You could have the same number and type of injury as another club, but if your list doesn't bat as deeply, it will of course impact more negatively. The context of the list quality plays a role. Five injuries to Collingwood is not as damaging as the same five injuries to North, because depth factors. And since no two lists are qualitatively the same, it's always a valid argument.

 

[citizen-erased]

Yes and yes

Is duz gonna be the xmas present for the slambrose into the middle crowd?
L

 

[ant555]

 

[ant555]

 

[ant555]

 

[ant555]

 

[ant555]

 

[ant555]

 

[ant555]

 

[Godzke]

View attachment 1897667

This looks like "man getting hit by football" without the football

 

[bombreys]

I think the tone of this conversation has gotten really hostile and I don’t like that.

Like you said the original conversation was about depth. Specifically if we were so deep why were we loosing by so many points at the end of last season.

My answer is that in a sense those players weren’t on the roster last season. The conversation about natural progression was referring to players like Cox, Reid, Tsatas, Daveyx2, progressing into useful AFL level players which they weren’t last year but have a reasonable expectation of being.

Add Gresham and McKay who are AFL level players who’s list spots last year were AMT/Stuart (who weren’t) and all of a sudden that’s to me 7/8* (including Caddy if he’s AFL ready this year) more AFL capable players on the list then were on it last season. (Which is about 20% of the list)

A team can have both a deep list and a flawed list or have other issues that prevent them from wining. (See GWS 2 years ago before they fired their old coach)

As far as that run at the end of the season. I’m not worried about it. Things were learned and it helped us get Nate Caddy. Some players gave up but many others didn’t and those players standing up in those conditions is a pretty big thing.

* Note me not counting Dursma and Goldy because they replaced Philips and BZT both of whom i considered AFL standard last season.

Edit: Re injuries. Value above replacement player is a thing. The list last year had some significant flaws and some clear roster holes or and some positions with no depth that allowed for opposing teams to take advantage of.

No hostility from my end, mate - understand things can come through differently in writing.

I seem a bit more concerned about the way we finished 2023 than a few others, it appears. I don’t think they can just be swept under the rug and forgotten about - especially when they were playing for finals.

 

[bombreys]

Rubbish. You could have the same number and type of injury as another club, but if your list doesn't bat as deeply, it will of course impact more negatively. The context of the list quality plays a role. Five injuries to Collingwood is not as damaging as the same five injuries to North, because depth factors. And since no two lists are qualitatively the same, it's always a valid argument.

People that sook about injuries are the same people that think Essendon get robbed every week by the umpires. It’s nonsense

 

[ghostdog]

People that sook about injuries are the same people that think Essendon get robbed every week by the umpires. It’s nonsense

That's fine. Doesn't diminish my argument though, and it doesn't uphold yours either.

 

[jdstorm]

No hostility from my end, mate - understand things can come through differently in writing.

I seem a bit more concerned about the way we finished 2023 than a few others, it appears. I don’t think they can just be swept under the rug and forgotten about - especially when they were playing for finals.

I think it (playing for finals) against the 2 best teams in the comp playing for Top4/1st was a good benchmark. They obviously fell very short.

Sometimes teams just get burnt out/tired and it seemed that that happened to them. The other thing was early last season the game plan hid the teams flaws. By the end of the season teams had worked that out and injuries and a lack of depth had created more roster holes.

Last seasons biggest problems included
Lack of marking power specifically on the wings
Poor ball usage off HB resulting in turnovers and placing undue pressure on the defence
Lacking a big 1on1 KPD
Too small/weak physically in the middle that teams could just burst through by overpowering smaller mids (got worse when stringer and setterfield went out)
Team not fit enough to endure whole season
Lack of dynamic forward threats aside from Langford

Then you look at the off-season an the team is trying to address all of these issues

• Goldy, Ben McKay for more marking power and 1 on 1 key defending
• Zerk for Dursma to add more running power/better ball usage on a wing/HB
• drafting 2 wing/HB players later in the draft

+Hiring a kicking coach to work with Parish and Tasatas (and whoever else) to improve ball usage

• Signing Gresham and Drafting Caddy to have more dynamic forward play
• bringing in movement coaches to get Reid/Cox/Stringer healthy
• Merrett led improvement in offseason training standards

While I think you shouldn’t judge teams by their best moments you also shouldn’t judge them by their worst

 

[Beerfish]

Thanks for all the great pics ant555!

 

[Squeaky]

No team has turned out as many of those non competitive shit shows than we have in the last 10-15 seasons. It's almost like it is ingrained in the club regardless of the playing group. Our new coach got a glimpse of it in the second last round. Then in the first qtr of the final round we give up 8 goals to zip. That is what troubles me (& I am guessing bombreys)

 

[citizen-erased]

No team has turned out as many of those non competitive s**t shows than we have in the last 10-15 seasons. It's almost like it is ingrained in the club regardless of the playing group. Our new coach got a glimpse of it in the second last round. Then in the first qtr of the final round we give up 8 goals to zip. That is what troubles me (& I am guessing bombreys)

Hence we should caution this preseason hype.
Its a well worn record the club rolls out on a regular basis.
20 years without a finals win clocks up this year. That level of mediocrity surpasses that of what carlton, richmond and gold coast serve up.
But for a kick in the north and eagles games, bottom 4 was as possible as top 5 late last season. We opted for the benefot of neither

 

[Squeaky]

Hence we should caution this preseason hype.
Its a well worn record the club rolls out on a regular basis.
20 years without a finals win clocks up this year. That level of mediocrity surpasses that of what carlton, richmond and gold coast serve up.
But for a kick in the north and eagles games, bottom 4 was as possible as top 5 late last season. We opted for the benefot of neither

100%
About time for EFC to shut up and put up!

 

[bombreys]

That's fine. Doesn't diminish my argument though, and it doesn't uphold yours either.

No, but our low amount of injures does. If healthy, the top 8 teams would have beaten us by more. And the likes of North and West Coast would have flogged us.

 

[bombreys]

No team has turned out as many of those non competitive s**t shows than we have in the last 10-15 seasons. It's almost like it is ingrained in the club regardless of the playing group. Our new coach got a glimpse of it in the second last round. Then in the first qtr of the final round we give up 8 goals to zip. That is what troubles me (& I am guessing bombreys)

For sure. And this isn’t just a one-off. I understand wanting to be optimistic, but saying things like we’re ‘too deep’ is simply untrue

 

[jdstorm]

given that the average afl career is 6years I think it’s pretty irrelevant to be hung up on poor results in the 2000s and early 2010s. It’s just being bitter and judgmental, entitled and stuck in the past.

Back to the present. By my count if healthy the current best 22 is probably something like this.

Ridley McKay Mcgrath
Redman Reid martin
Durham Merrett Dursma
Perkins Caddy Gresham
Langford Wright Menzie
Draper Parish Stringer

IC Cox Bryan Hobbs Setterfield

Which means depth players include
Laverde, Baldwin, Hind, Caldwell, Sheil, Tsatas, Kelly, Heppell, Guelfi, Goldy, Weid, Jones. That’s a pretty good vfl side

All of those 12 players are legitimate AFL depth. I mean Billy Frampton

17

Billy Frampton

Age

28

Ht

201cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

9.1

2star

K

5.1

2star

HB

4.0

3star

M

3.1

3star

T

0.7

3star

MG

99.0

2star

D

8.5

2star

K

4.8

2star

HB

3.8

3star

M

3.5

3star

T

0.5

1star

MG

99.0

2star

D

9.2

3star

K

5.6

3star

HB

3.6

3star

M

2.8

3star

T

1.0

3star

MG

107.0

2star

played FF in a GF for the pies last year (he’s worse then Wied) your not expecting world beaters as depth just decent mature bodied footy players who can run out a game.

Sure you can still point to the VFL side being a touch small with all the midsized players on the AFL squad, but overall that’s a competitive list.

 

[EnolaGay]

Don’t make me tap the sign, “2024 Preseason Training Thread”


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[faible]

20 years without a finals win clocks up this year. That level of mediocrity surpasses that of what carlton, richmond and gold coast serve up.

I don't think 'winning a final' is the goal really, it's just a thing people fixate on.

Carlton have been pretty undeniably shitter than EFC over the last 20 years, they've had one or two season (e.g. 2023) that were better but pretty much no matter how shit Essendon have been, Carlton have been worse.

The problem with people fixating on the winning a final thing, means that no matter what the club does or changes the current group are held responsible for the failures of the previous one and therefore not given the time necessarily to actually fix all the shit that's wrong.

Scott at least has the track record to buy him an extra year or two that Rutten didn't have.

 

[citizen-erased]

I don't think 'winning a final' is the goal really, it's just a thing people fixate on.

Carlton have been pretty undeniably shitter than EFC over the last 20 years, they've had one or two season (e.g. 2023) that were better but pretty much no matter how s**t Essendon have been, Carlton have been worse.

The problem with people fixating on the winning a final thing, means that no matter what the club does or changes the current group are held responsible for the failures of the previous one and therefore not given the time necessarily to actually fix all the s**t that's wrong.

Scott at least has the track record to buy him an extra year or two that Rutten didn't have.

Im probably the least bothered by the stat and twitter account amongst out supporters, but bring it up as an example that we talk a big preseason quite regularly, and arent shy to sell an offseason too.

Our peak has been 8th since 04 and we've had a ceiling that is getting past that first week of finals for a long time now.
I like what brad's doing but ill wait to see what it translates to come years end.

I don't necessarily think its personnel but a culture within the club that has contributed to that record. It shouldn't be news everyone is training well preseason i guess

 

[Squeaky]

Im probably the least bothered by the stat and twitter account amongst out supporters, but bring it up as an example that we talk a big preseason quite regularly, and arent shy to sell an offseason too.

Our peak has been 8th since 04 and we've had a ceiling that is getting past that first week of finals for a long time now.
I like what brad's doing but ill wait to see what it translates to come years end.

I don't necessarily think its personnel but a culture within the club that has contributed to that record. It shouldn't be news everyone is training well preseason i guess

Spot on - everyone is flying during pre season - why are we any different?
In short - don't tell us; show us! (and not just for half a year either)
I know last year fell off the cliff, but try to resurrect something, anything from the ashes of a good start to the season rather than insipid beltings under the excuse that 'we're cooked'.