Coach Justin Longmuir Pt 2

[Dockeroo]

The anti over handballing narrative is an interesting one. It's not some new tactic, it was used by the 04-05 Eagles (They did have Cousins, Kerr, Judd and Cox) to get out of congestion and break through defensive zones. Bomber Thompson's Geelong outfit was a very run and gun over handball team too.

As other have said we don't have the cattle up forward and the young ones like Amiss and Treacy simply need more reps. If we had Curnow and McKay up forward we're a top 4 side. I think that's obvious to everyone.

No comparison to the pressure a modern elite AFL team puts on relative to 20 years ago.

I’d be more open to our high handball gameplan if we had a core of elite non-fumblers and decision makers though the middle of the ground. We have a couple of them but that’s not enough.
We also need a lot more leg speed in the centre - Serong, Brayshaw Fyfe young and Johnson is a decent bunch but none of them are explosive over the first few yards to break into open space, compared to some of the other elite miss in the comp. (Now if we add Warner, then we could be talking…)

 

[Bradesmaen]

Just read an article that said we've had the Equal 17th hardest draw to start the year and we're 6-4-1. Not good enough really and we should be playing a lot better than we currently are. We're the 13th in scoring and well behind the top teams, 2nd worst accuracy.

 

[Quazar2]

I can definitely be an A hole, but my statement is not a nuffie post. It is human nature and there are many egos that would rather their original opinions be correct above all else, because admitting they were wrong is too painful.

You aren't in that category, and I was not specifically talking about you. There are others that I believe are in this category.

You're more susceptible to focus on everything that is going wrong, without balancing it out with what is going right. It comes across as FOMO - if we don't attain perfection right now then we're going to miss our chance. When the situation is viewed holistically, I see these opinions as fear-based (emotive) rather than rational. I have a 'Dominant' personality on the DISC assessment, so can be harsh towards reactions that I perceive to be purely based on emotion. Basically I focus on the task and not the person.

So going back to the start of all this - you were asking what does the board do at seasons end if we fail, and imply that this is the most likely outcome. This is triggering because you are incorrect. Failure is not the most likely outcome. It's been a bit frustrating because sometimes we're good and sometimes we're not, so it's hard to gauge exactly where we are and what's going to happen.

I also don't agree with comments that suggest we're not a top team because of our game plan. This is overly simplistic. There is so much going on in football that affects gameplan. Strategies going into the game, tactics employed during the game, player availability before and during games, freshness of players, experience of players, other external factors (McCarthy).

Not sure how many times JL needs to say it, but we're not a team that is intentionally trying to play a chip/mark style.

My argument is that we (still) do not have enough data, and JL needs to be given some room to move in light of having massive holes in the forward line. We cannot play like other teams if we do not have the personnel to play like them.

I think we will make finals, but we're not really a threat to the premiership. We could become one as soon as next year though if we're able to recruit a Baker or Warner and Cooper Simpson really comes on quickly.

A couple of other points:

• the media are piling on Freo at the moment and it's affecting how our supporters view our team. It's actually pretty fkd up how bad it is and we have guys like Buckley and Montagna having to go against the grain and speaking out because even they can see how unfair a lot of what is being said about us is.
• the constant rotation of our forward line has been a massive problem this year. Plus Emmett has been extremely disappointing and hasn't come close to filling the role we needed filled.

Great post, hopefully you and Dockeroo and others can remain respectful (with one another...) in the long term, as we're all passionate and emotive and opinionated when it comes to this football club, and every now and again tempers flare. Hopefully we're all adult enough to keep the personal insults at bay and argue points without inflamed senses of superiority and egoism. There is room for both sides of the argument, but it often gets out of whack or balance.

I really think you're right about the media hysteria though and I think it's weird how they're so offended we're doing okay. Was Collingwood just....supposed to win?! Maybe we upset the narrative? Oh dear, what a shame...

And you're right about Emmett, he's been asked to plug Schultz's void and it hasn't worked as he's not quite good enough or there yet.

And one last thing, f** k you media, you bunch of trickle-brained trollops

 

[The Round House Drunk]

Re: overpossession

In the Caleb Serong

3

Caleb Serong

Age

23

Ht

180cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

13.0

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

6.0

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.6

5star

CL

2.6

4star

D

13.0

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

6.0

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.6

4star

CL

2.6

4star

D

13.0

4star

K

7.0

3star

HB

6.0

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.6

5star

CL

2.6

5star

Mic’d Up segment he tells a teammate “None of those kicks go to isolated one on ones. That’s not a principle for us”.

The game plan obviously has a strong focus on keeping possession and minimising turnovers by foot.

We need to learn how to find the right balance in game, particularly at centre bounces where the sideways or backwards handball chains are prone to breaking down. As others have said, the first two goals in the third quarter resulted from us getting first hands, but then looking to hand pass into space rather than get the ball forward by boot.

 

[Stinky Lomax]

Just read an article that said we've had the Equal 17th hardest draw to start the year and we're 6-4-1. Not good enough really and we should be playing a lot better than we currently are. We're the 13th in scoring and well behind the top teams, 2nd worst accuracy.

Can you share that article please?

 

[lint]

Re: overpossession

In the Caleb Serong Mic’d Up segment he tells a teammate “None of those kicks go to isolated one on ones. That’s not a principle for us”.

The game plan obviously has a strong focus on keeping possession and minimising turnovers by foot.

We need to learn how to find the right balance in game, particularly at centre bounces where the sideways or backwards handball chains are prone to breaking down. As others have said, the first two goals in the third quarter resulted from us getting first hands, but then looking to hand pass into space rather than get the ball forward by boot.

Pretty sure he said "None of those kicks are going to isolated one on ones. That's not predictable for us, you know what i mean?" to Fyfe, frustrated, while on the bench in the 3rd quarter. Before that he yells "Hey! We're unpredictable, the ball is ping-ponging!" in an annoyed state to his teammates, right after he also pleads "Oi, Oi, lets just calm down, let's get some metre-age" to the team.

If you look at his body language and the game context, what he is saying is definitely not a good thing. It's in the middle of the third quarter, where we are under siege and turning the ball over to Collingwood with too much handball and sideways kicking. He is telling the players to take metre-age and kick down the line or upfield to advantage to isolated one on one's we can win. To calm down.

Or, by pinging the ball around in midfield and defence we were inviting pressure and making it too hard to predict what was happening for our players forward of the ball, creating chaos that Collingwood was feeding off and therefore spring boarding from midfield and defence from our turnovers.

So basically, the direct opposite of what you're saying haha.

It's pretty clear the team has many game situation ways of playing (look at the last quarter for example with Pierce thrust up forward, which they had practiced during the week for late game scenarios). At the stage you were referring too, in the third, it looks like Caleb was asking the team to reset with some percentage based, field position play (remember his soccer forward from mid air? he was trying to take ground and not overuse it), as Collingwood were on top in the midfield and we weren't connecting as a group due to pinging it around too much in our midfield and backline, making it hard for players to predict where to run and therefore difficult to get isolated one on ones.

In the final quarter the back 6 marked the ball 4 times as opposed to 70 times in the preceding three quarters.

I'd say they listened.

 

[yakamoto]

Don’t know about the soft draw, fixturing seems to have been a major problem for us.

 

[Fat Nyfe]

Just read an article that said we've had the Equal 17th hardest draw to start the year and we're 6-4-1. Not good enough really and we should be playing a lot better than we currently are. We're the 13th in scoring and well behind the top teams, 2nd worst accuracy.

I'm not going to disagree that we could or should be doing better than what we are, but the 'hardest/easiest draw' rankings are a load of crap. Sydney are by far the best team so if you've played them you've had a tough game, then you can throw a blanket over 10 teams. I don't subscribe to teams supposedly getting Essendon in the first half of the year having a harder draw compared to whichever week in particular a team might get Hawthorn or West Coast, who can play rubbish one week but great the next.

 

[Raz]

Pretty sure he said "None of those kicks are going to isolated one on ones. That's not predictable for us, you know what i mean?" to Fyfe, frustrated, while on the bench in the 3rd quarter. Before that he yells "Hey! We're unpredictable, the ball is ping-ponging!" in an annoyed state to his teammates, right after he also pleads "Oi, Oi, lets just calm down, let's get some metre-age" to the team.

If you look at his body language and the game context, what he is saying is definitely not a good thing. It's in the middle of the third quarter, where we are under siege and turning the ball over to Collingwood with too much handball and sideways kicking. He is telling the players to take metre-age and kick down the line or upfield to advantage to isolated one on one's we can win. To calm down.

Or, by pinging the ball around like a chicken with it's head cut off, we were inviting pressure and making it too hard to predict what was happening for our players forward of the ball, creating chaos that Collingwood was feeding off and therefore spring boarding from midfield and defence from our turnovers.

So basically, the direct opposite of what you're saying haha.

Yes predictable is a good thing, as long as it only your only team that can predict. unfortunatly a long bomb down the line is fully predicatble by the oppostion. To be predicatable jsut do as you train. dont bring in new things unless advised by coach.

And isolated one on ones are definatly not a LONG BOMB down the line . It is terminology that the team undertands hopefully. it means that there is no chance of an intercept from the opposition. With collingwood having a great interceptor (as do many teams now) we need to look up and see where he is and kick any where but there, our forwards and mids need to lead to space and get away from packs. Isolated means our smalls are available without the opposition on their tails to grab any ball that comes to the ground from marking contest.

IT is old style football to kick to one on one and Hope your player wins the battle. Kick to where your player can bring it to ground and be crumbed by our smalls. If no option look (or listen) for that quick handball to change direction and be unpredictable to the opposition.

 

[MadMundy]

I will say I do think Longmuir is very likely a much better speaker to the team in meetings and huddles than he would be in media, some people just aren't good in front of a camera and that's fine, I mean hey, 90% of players in the league come across as awkward as **** on camera, it's not that big of a deal.

AFL is probably not the best example of good public speakers outside of a few.

 

[Quazar2]

I'm not going to disagree that we could or should be doing better than what we are, but the 'hardest/easiest draw' rankings are a load of crap. Sydney are by far the best team so if you've played them you've had a tough game, then you can throw a blanket over 10 teams. I don't subscribe to teams supposedly getting Essendon in the first half of the year having a harder draw compared to whichever week in particular a team might get Hawthorn or West Coast, who can play rubbish one week but great the next.

agreed, we finished 14th last year and our draw is not softer. Especially when you consider the paltry travel schedule of Vic clubs, it's near non-existent. We get Hawthorn and North once and one of them in Tasmania, not advocating we should get a piss-easy draw either so we can just belt teams - which we're not doing anyway. And agreed we're not doing our cause any favours with our missed opportunities. Of course, this just comes across as 'whinging', so I'll leave it alone now, but it's a lie when the AFL says it looks to equalisation of all clubs across the comp. It doesn't exist

 

[lint]

Yes predictable is a good thing, as long as it only your only team that can predict. unfortunatly a long bomb down the line is fully predicatble by the oppostion. To be predicatable jsut do as you train. dont bring in new things unless advised by coach.

And isolated one on ones are definatly not a LONG BOMB down the line . It is terminology that the team undertands hopefully. it means that there is no chance of an intercept from the opposition. With collingwood having a great interceptor (as do many teams now) we need to look up and see where he is and kick any where but there, our forwards and mids need to lead to space and get away from packs. Isolated means our smalls are available without the opposition on their tails to grab any ball that comes to the ground from marking contest.

IT is old style football to kick to one on one and Hope your player wins the battle. Kick to where your player can bring it to ground and be crumbed by our smalls. If no option look (or listen) for that quick handball to change direction and be unpredictable to the opposition.

yep, he is talking about being predictable to team mates, and not to the opposition (and their interceptors). It's the elusive forward connection J-Lo has been talking about.

Burst speed forwards and penetrating footskills help with this. It's why the Reids and Warners are so helpful to forward lines predicting where to run to.

Pinging the ball left and right are the opposite, making it very hard for forwards to figure out their leading patterns or when to get out the back. It's why I don't think we want Ryan, Clark, Cox et al having 10 marks in each in defence and chipping from side to side ad infinitum, or 4 inside mids having 10 plus sidewards and backwards handballs with no real incisive forwards penetration.

Incidentally, Adelaide found themselves in exactly that midfield position, with Crouch, Laird, Berry and Dawson as inside mids leading to a lot of sidewards and backwards handball due to a lack of speed, until they injected some Soligo and Rankine to add burst speed and go forward from cbas and stoppages.

If Switkowski is our equivalent answer, I'm concerned.

 

[Quazar2]

I will say I do think Longmuir is very likely a much better speaker to the team in meetings and huddles than he would be in media, some people just aren't good in front of a camera and that's fine, I mean hey, 90% of players in the league come across as awkward as **** on camera, it's not that big of a deal.

AFL is probably not the best example of good public speakers outside of a few.

I think he's improved/improving....he naturally has a monotonous cadence or voice that makes him sound a bit mundane, and that's just....unfortunate. Then you add in the pauses, slight stammers; erms & yehs.....industry cliches and repetitions of words like 'contest' and it all comes off as a bit dull, or naff at minor best. But that's not his fault and we should focus on the one thing that matters most...his coaching. I think he's 43 and the 2nd youngest coach (Mitchell?), so he has massive upside of growth if you consider his coaching career is for all intents and purposes, just getting going.

I get we're all impatient as fans to see imminent success, but if you look at J-Lo's tenure as a whole, factor in COVID and other mitigating circumstances, think that J-lo hasn't had a home-game in round 1 in 5 years UNTIL this year, I think we could cut him way more slack and just ride out his time as he's contracted here now, and see where it takes us. Who knows, maybe he's just another flop in the making; but maybe.....just maybe. He's the exact opposite.

I like what I see more than I don't.......

 

[Raz]

yep, he is talking about being predictable to team mates, and not to the opposition (and their interceptors). It's the elusive forward connection J-Lo has been talking about.

Burst speed forwards and penetrating footskills help with this. It's why the Reids and Warners are so helpful to forward lines predicting where to run to.

Pinging the ball left and right are the opposite, making it very hard for forwards to figure out their leading patterns or when to get out the back. It's why I don't think we want Ryan, Clark, Cox et al having 10 marks in each in defence and chipping from side to side ad infinitum, or 4 inside mids having 10 plus sidewards and backwards handballs with no real incisive forwards penetration.

Incidentally, Adelaide found themselves in exactly that midfield position, with Crouch, Laird, Berry and Dawson as inside mids leading to a lot of sidewards and backwards handball due to a lack of speed, until they injected some Soligo and Rankine to add burst speed and go forward from cbas and stoppages.

If Switkowski is our equivalent answer, I'm concerned.

Actually if pinging it left and right is what they do at training it is totally predictable to our forwards.
Only the newer players who are used to old fashioned kick it quick to Full forward and hope for a mark will not be watching carefully as per training routines for when that ball will be kicked to them.

The forward connection Justin is hoping for is the players to learn his game style and play it.
Yes can look messy but kicking to AMISS when he has two players on him, or to Jackson with even more of a crowd around hm is not GOOD Football.

So i havent been to a single training night to watch, so hopefully someone on this board who has been to training can tell us. HOW do they train to get it into the forward line.

IT was interesting to hear Brayshaw state that during pre-season interclub matches Pearce has gone forward a few times and drilled goals. So whilst on the MAtch day we go wow. how Unpredicatable, it was totally predicatble to his team mates having trained that way during preseason

 

[E Shed]

I must say I enjoy the reasoned discussion of the last few pages far more than the old days when there was always someone accusing anyone positive of being accepting of mediocrity, as if somehow if everyone got angry enough it would force us to just decide to be good!

In a year where Geelong has lost 4 on the bounce, Brisbane are getting thumped by the Hawks, Carlton got a full on belting by Sydney, Dogs are hot & cold, GWS are stuttering etc I think our form is pretty solid.

At least I go in to games expecting a contest and to be mostly in with a chance to win by the end.

It’s a bloody tough competition & without advantages that many other clubs get we’ve got a great group coming through together.

I don’t think it’s reasonable at this point to expect a premiership with our list demographic but we’re definitely heading in the right direction for sustained competitive football over the next few years.

 

[Quazar2]

I must say I enjoy the reasoned discussion of the last few pages far more than the old days when there was always someone accusing anyone positive of being accepting of mediocrity, as if somehow if everyone got angry enough it would force us to just decide to be good!

In a year where Geelong has lost 4 on the bounce, Brisbane are getting thumped by the Hawks, Carlton got a full on belting by Sydney, Dogs are hot & cold, GWS are stuttering etc I think our form is pretty solid.

At least I go in to games expecting a contest and to be mostly in with a chance to win by the end.

It’s a bloody tough competition & without advantages that many other clubs get we’ve got a great group coming through together.

I don’t think it’s reasonable at this point to expect a premiership with our list demographic but we’re definitely heading in the right direction for sustained competitive football over the next few years.

Yes sir!! Absolutely this.

It's about when that Premiership corner is turned, it might not just be one fluked GF win, but sustained goliath success, a dynasty (one hopes!). That's what the club is trying to create and fortify after years in the doldrums. Not a one hit wonder!

Not everyone can see it but glad some posters like yourself are onto it. Also it's a great point about the 'top clubs', they're dropping games left, right and centre. It's not all a bed of roses for them bar Sydney right now.

Anyway, it's the "J-lo" thread so I'll try not to fall off topic

 

[lint]

Actually if pinging it left and right is what they do at training it is totally predictable to our forwards.
Only the newer players who are used to old fashioned kick it quick to Full forward and hope for a mark will not be watching carefully as per training routines for when that ball will be kicked to them.

The forward connection Justin is hoping for is the players to learn his game style and play it.
Yes can look messy but kicking to AMISS when he has two players on him, or to Jackson with even more of a crowd around hm is not GOOD Football.

So i havent been to a single training night to watch, so hopefully someone on this board who has been to training can tell us. HOW do they train to get it into the forward line.

IT was interesting to hear Brayshaw state that during pre-season interclub matches Pearce has gone forward a few times and drilled goals. So whilst on the MAtch day we go wow. how Unpredicatable, it was totally predicatble to his team mates having trained that way during preseason

Yeah im not sure if either you're not properly reading posts, or just getting bogged down in your cognitive bias in relation to the need to project your personal football knowledge, so I'll just summarise quickly, as you seem to have lost the original context.

Serong Mic'd Up v Collingwood


There are numerous game situations the team trains for. The Pierce situation you mentioned is an example of a late close game situation they trained for during the week (and hence is "predictable" to the team in that game situation)

In the clip which started the discussion, from 40 secs on Serong is screaming that we aren't predictable enough to our forwards and we need to calm down and stop pinging it around, as we aren't finding isolated one on ones forward due to slow ball movement/overuse of the ball. He is clearly saying we are pinging it about too much.

This is in response to the third quarter from Collingwood, where we turned it over and hardly scored.

In the fourth quarter our back 6 had 4 marks, compared to 70 marks in the first three quarters. We came back to tie the game.

They listened.

Takeaways:.

In this game situation, we weren't doing our forwards any favours through "pinging it around" too much.

Hence Caleb was screaming/beseeching/pleading with our players to stop "pinging it around"

And it's not the first time. This to me indicates it's not a team directive, but up to the players (and coaches) to respond to game situations, and not fall in love with "pinging it around" when its not appropriate to the game situation.

I think a lot of mud gets thrown at our forward line, but alot of what makes pretty average forward lines (Swans/Collingwood etc) look great is the quality of supply from up the field.

 

[dominguez]

Next 3 games are massive for JL, the club, and our season. Our run home is tough so really need to beat the out of sorts Demons, Bulldogs without Naughton and Suns in Perth.

Season slips away if we drop 2 of those 3.

Starts at selection this week, if he sticks with out of form players and we lose it'll be disappointing.

 

[dominguez]

They can go for it! I am not writing for work here... this is fun. A year of fun for freo fans be fore more expectations come next season.

Why are there no expectations on this season? We've been rebuilding almost a decade. Esssendon are currently second on the ladder, how many players at Essendon would walk into our best 23?

Winning a final is a pass mark IMO this year. The competition is mediocre, every team is vulnerable and beatable bar the Swans.

Get Coxy back and we have clearly the best backline in the comp. When Darcy finds fitness we have one of the best ruck/midfield combos in the comp.

Flagmantle 2024.

 

[dominguez]

Don’t know about the soft draw, fixturing seems to have been a major problem for us.

We've only played 2 of the top 6 teams so far (Swans and Port) and have played all of the bottom 8 except Hawks. We double up against Swans and Port so that means in the run home we play every team currently in the top 6 after playing mostly bottom 8 teams to this point.

To be fair only 5 of our first 13 are home games at Optus so 6 of the last 10 will be home games.

 

[dominguez]

I'm not going to disagree that we could or should be doing better than what we are, but the 'hardest/easiest draw' rankings are a load of crap. Sydney are by far the best team so if you've played them you've had a tough game, then you can throw a blanket over 10 teams. I don't subscribe to teams supposedly getting Essendon in the first half of the year having a harder draw compared to whichever week in particular a team might get Hawthorn or West Coast, who can play rubbish one week but great the next.

When we are hard to beat at home the draw is irrelevant. Win 10 of 12 in Perth and half the interstate games and we're pushing for top 4.

 

[lint]

Yeah im not sure if either you're not properly reading posts, or just getting bogged down in your cognitive bias in relation to the need to project your personal football knowledge, so I'll just summarise quickly, as you seem to have lost the original context.

Serong Mic'd Up v Collingwood


There are numerous game situations the team trains for. The Pierce sitauaton you mentioned is an example of a late close game situation they trained for during the week (and hence is "predictable" to the team in that game situation)

In the clip which started the discussion, from 40 secs on Serong is screaming that we aren't predictable enough to our forwards and we need to calm down and stop pinging it around, as we aren't finding isolated one on ones forward due to slow ball movement/overuse of the ball. He is clearly saying we are pinging it about too much.

This is in response to the third quarter from Collingwood, where we turned it over and hardly scored.

In the fourth quarter our back 6 had 4 marks, compared to 70 marks in the first three quarters. We came back to tie the game.

They listened.

Takeaways:.

In this game situation, we weren't doing our forwards any favours through "pinging it around" too much.

Hence Caleb was screaming/beseeching/pleading with our players to stop "pinging it around"

And it's not the first time. This to me indicates it's not a team directive, but up to the players (and coaches) to respond to game situations, and not fall in love with "pinging it around" when its not appropriate to the game situation.

I think a lot of mud gets thrown at our forward line, but alot of what makes pretty average forward lines (Swans/Collingwood etc) look great is the quality of supply from up the field.

On top of this, J-Lo came out on in the press conference after the Collingwood game and said "we over-used the ball and needed to trust our forwards in one on ones up field more"

Conclusion: Serong, Longmuir and the coaching staff could see what we could all see, that the balance wasn't right in terms of ball use, and were trying to correct this in-game, and no doubt during training this week. "Pinging the ball around too much" wasn't a coaching directive, it was the players leaning into personal decisions on-field when under intense pressure, in this case, the wrong ones.

 

[dominguez]

I must say I enjoy the reasoned discussion of the last few pages far more than the old days when there was always someone accusing anyone positive of being accepting of mediocrity, as if somehow if everyone got angry enough it would force us to just decide to be good!

In a year where Geelong has lost 4 on the bounce, Brisbane are getting thumped by the Hawks, Carlton got a full on belting by Sydney, Dogs are hot & cold, GWS are stuttering etc I think our form is pretty solid.

At least I go in to games expecting a contest and to be mostly in with a chance to win by the end.

It’s a bloody tough competition & without advantages that many other clubs get we’ve got a great group coming through together.

I don’t think it’s reasonable at this point to expect a premiership with our list demographic but we’re definitely heading in the right direction for sustained competitive football over the next few years.

Like you said most teams in the comp have been up and down. We're 2 or 3 errors a game across 120 minutes of footy away from being second on the ladder. If our good run with injuries continues aspirations should be high this year.

 

[mattis117]

This image says a lot - especially about Essendon. Just goes to show how even the competition is, with 12 teams hardly separable. Only swans above, and Hawks, Saints, Eagles, Richmond, and North below. Source: Squiggle.

 

[Raz]

Yeah im not sure if either you're not properly reading posts,

oh are we meant to read posts.? LOL

Sorry , i just post random stuff as i bored.

Ignore me, look elsewhere.