2008 All-Australian Team

[hawks_time]

Re: How many '08 All-Australians for Geelong?

Last year's team shouldn't be compared in regards to the number of Geelong players. Each player should get selected based on performances regardless for which team they play for. Just because Geelong are a good team doesn't mean every player is AA standard.

Correct. Eg 1991 AA squad, not 1 Hawk even though we won the cup.

 

[AG]

Re: How many '08 All-Australians for Geelong?

Whoa, you're jumping to quite a few conclusions there mate.

All i said was that i can't see us having three less players picked this year, given we went 21-1.
I didn't say (or even suggest) that players should be picked based on who they play for, or that every Geelong player is AA standard.
Where you got that from, i do not know.

I got it from there. I'm saying that just because you won more games than last year, it shouldn't equate to a certain number of Geelong players in the team. No doubtthat most deserve it, it's more if they were tossing up between Milburn and Fisher they would probably go for Milburn because of the 'Geelong' factor.
I'm not attacking you BTW, it's more an observation on some of the things the media say. Mike Sheahan said (On The Couch) that "Geelong would have to have more players than last year because they are a better team than last year", which doesn't make sense to me.

 

[AG]

Re: How many '08 All-Australians for Geelong?

FWIW I think Ablett, Bartel, Scarlett, Corey, and Steve Johnson are certainties.
I believe Harley, Enright and Selwood deserve it, but think they'll all be borderline.
I can't see Milburn or Mackie making it.

That's a damn good and honest assessment. I have the 5 certainties plus Harley in my team. Enright and Selwood deserve it, but I think Hodge and Black are just ahead. I agree with you 100% on Milburn and Mackie.

 

[Exhale You]

Re: How many '08 All-Australians for Geelong?

I'm saying that just because you won more games than last year, it shouldn't equate to a certain number of Geelong players in the team.

I never said it 'should equate to a certain number of players', what i said was that i can't see them selecting three less Geelong players than last year.

There is a genuine difference between those two statements.

No doubtthat most deserve it, it's more if they were tossing up between Milburn and Fisher they would probably go for Milburn because of the 'Geelong' factor.

I don't think Milburn will make it.

I'm not attacking you BTW, it's more an observation on some of the things the media say. Mike Sheahan said (On The Couch) that "Geelong would have to have more players than last year because they are a better team than last year", which doesn't make sense to me.

My statement was totally different to the one you've attributed to Sheahan.

I didn't say we should have more players this year, i didn't even say we should have the same amount of players, all i said was that i believe they won't pick three less Geelong players than they did last year.

 

[AG]

It's more the selectors being star struck I have a problem with. They spend so much time throughout the year writing articles on the dominace of Geelong and their key players that other players just get forgotten.
I apply the same theory to guys like Chris Judd. So much has been written in the past few years about the dominance of the guy, that it's the mentality of most media experts to include him in AA consideration this year.
Players like Black and Mitchell seem to get put to the back of the line to allow the 'prolific superstars' of the competition to take place in any AA talk. Jonathan Brown is becoming one as well. Pavlich and Riewoldt would be well ahead for the CHF spot, but listening to talk back radio and reading articles you'd think Brown was way more deserving.

 

[pazza]

Re: How many '08 All-Australians for Geelong?

My final side:

B: Sam Fisher (St. Kilda), Matthew Scarlett (Geelong), Dale Morris (Footscray)
HB: Luke Hodge (Hawthorn), Nathan Bock (Adelaide), Daniel Pratt (North Melbourne)
C: Gary Ablett (Geelong), Jimmy Bartel (Geelong), Joel Selwood (Geelong)
HF: Ryan O'Keefe (Sydney), Jonathon Brown (Brisbane), Steve Johnson (Geelong)
F: Paul Medhurst (Collingwood), Lance Franklin (Hawthorn), Brendan Fevola (Carlton)
R: Dean Cox (West Coast), Brett Kirk (Sydney - Captain), Sam Mitchell (Hawthorn)
Int: Aaron Sandilands (Fremantle), Simon Black (Brisbane), Brent Harvey (North Melbourne), Adam Cooney (Footscray)

Only 5 Geelong players.
Hawthorn has 3.
Brisbane, Footscray, North Melbourne, Sydney 2 each.
St. Kilda, Adelaide, Carlton, West Coast, Fremantle and Collingwood 1 each.

 

[AG]

Re: How many '08 All-Australians for Geelong?

My statement was totally different to the one you've attributed to Sheahan.
I didn't say we should have more players this year, i didn't even say we should have the same amount of players, all i said was that i believe they won't pick three less Geelong players than they did last year.

That's why I said, "I'm not attacking you BTW" at the start of the paragraph.

 

[Exhale You]

Re: How many '08 All-Australians for Geelong?

That's a damn good and honest assessment. I have the 5 certainties plus Harley in my team. Enright and Selwood deserve it, but I think Hodge and Black are just ahead. I agree with you 100% on Milburn and Mackie.

That's quite possibly the first time any two people have actually agreed in the history of Bigfooty.

Despite seeing Harley, Enright and Selwood as borderline selections, i can't see them leaving all of them out, so i guess i'd be tipping we get between 6 and 8 in the team.

 

[Exhale You]

Re: How many '08 All-Australians for Geelong?

That's why I said, "I'm not attacking you BTW" at the start of the paragraph.

No big deal, but in your first response you seemingly attributed views to me that aren't accurate, that's all.

 

[BLPC08]

Re: How many '08 All-Australians for Geelong?

My final side:

B: Sam Fisher (St. Kilda), Matthew Scarlett (Geelong), Dale Morris (Footscray)
HB: Luke Hodge (Hawthorn), Nathan Bock (Adelaide), Daniel Pratt (North Melbourne)
C: Gary Ablett (Geelong), Jimmy Bartel (Geelong), Joel Selwood (Geelong)
HF: Ryan O'Keefe (Sydney), Jonathon Brown (Brisbane), Steve Johnson (Geelong)
F: Paul Medhurst (Collingwood), Lance Franklin (Hawthorn), Brendan Fevola (Carlton)
R: Dean Cox (West Coast), Brett Kirk (Sydney - Captain), Sam Mitchell (Hawthorn)
Int: Aaron Sandilands (Fremantle), Simon Black (Brisbane), Brent Harvey (North Melbourne), Adam Cooney (Footscray)

Only 5 Geelong players.
Hawthorn has 3.
Brisbane, Footscray, North Melbourne, Sydney 2 each.
St. Kilda, Adelaide, Carlton, West Coast, Fremantle and Collingwood 1 each.

Probably the best team I have seen, can't argue with any of the selections bar Ryan O'Keefe who is an absolute dud and can't kick, oh and Daniel Pratt who is pure shite.

 

[Exhale You]

Re: How many '08 All-Australians for Geelong?

My final side:

B: Sam Fisher (St. Kilda), Matthew Scarlett (Geelong), Dale Morris (Footscray)
HB: Luke Hodge (Hawthorn), Nathan Bock (Adelaide), Daniel Pratt (North Melbourne)
C: Gary Ablett (Geelong), Jimmy Bartel (Geelong), Joel Selwood (Geelong)
HF: Ryan O'Keefe (Sydney), Jonathon Brown (Brisbane), Steve Johnson (Geelong)
F: Paul Medhurst (Collingwood), Lance Franklin (Hawthorn), Brendan Fevola (Carlton)
R: Dean Cox (West Coast), Brett Kirk (Sydney - Captain), Sam Mitchell (Hawthorn)
Int: Aaron Sandilands (Fremantle), Simon Black (Brisbane), Brent Harvey (North Melbourne), Adam Cooney (Footscray)

Only 5 Geelong players.
Hawthorn has 3.
Brisbane, Footscray, North Melbourne, Sydney 2 each.
St. Kilda, Adelaide, Carlton, West Coast, Fremantle and Collingwood 1 each.

I'd be shocked if Simon Black made it, especially at the expense of Joel Corey.

It's not Black's fault, but his second half of the year was awful.
His disposal efficiency was by far the worst of all the prolific ball winners (even worse than noted butcher, Dane Swan).

He's a champion and no doubt was locked in before injury took over, but his 2008 ended up being average (by his own lofty standards).

 

[AG]

Re: How many '08 All-Australians for Geelong?

Probably the best team I have seen, can't argue with any of the selections bar Ryan O'Keefe who is an absolute dud and can't kick, oh and Daniel Pratt who is pure shite.

Haha. Probably the best team but.....

IMO decent team but it doesn't have Riewoldt or or Corey or Pavlich or Richardson. But Brown made it?

 

[AG]

Re: How many '08 All-Australians for Geelong?

Richo, Corey, Ablett, and Bartel are definates. Mitchell and Cooney should make it. So that leaves Selwood, Kirk and Black fighting for one spot. I went with Black, but the other two are probably just as deserving

 

[Jimthegreat]

I'm not concerned about whether people think he's good, you'd be an idiot to not think he was. It's the fact that people think he doesn't play on the best forwards when he clearly does. Scarlett hasn't rebounded any more this year than any other year look at his stats. The difference is, he has more talent around him to ensure his rebound is significantly more effective. The fact is he has always and has continued in 2008 to rebound off the top goalscorers, unfortunately because they spend most of their day tailing him rather than the opposite the fact he's on them seems to fade into obscurity. If you are going to discuss his role, make sure you've got the facts right because when people state otherwise based on nothing but the odd snippet of what they hear, and not what they see then I have no choice but to step in and tell it like it is.



How do you judge effectiveness? Fevola had 2 possessions in 3 quarters on Scarlett, didn't win a 1v1 all night long, finished with 3 goals. Similar results on the scoreboard in both games and similar outputs from Fevola, he had 3 on Max too. Teams can be better on any given night at containing these guys, but none do it as consistently and with the impact that our defenders do. In case you hadn't noticed our 'against' score is the best in the business by a fair margin.

As for your last point, I'll put that down to ignorance. It's like beating a broken record but you people seem to fail to comprehend that Geelong have been excellent the past 2 seasons, Matthew Scarlett has been regarded as the best FB in the league for alot longer than that. We built our side around him and he was an AA, International Rules rep, B&F winner when our Catters were struggling. Scarlo has proven himself in a big way when the going is toughest.

The ball never got into the Carlton forward 50 during the 3rd qtr literally. He kicked 3 from limited chances and yes did beat Scarlett in a couple 1 on 1 contests. Not sure Scarlett's that good in 1 on 1's. The few contests they had that night. Fev certainly took the points even with 3 goals. By contrast he was bloody awful the night on Hudgton, 3 goals or not Not ll 3 goal performances are the same, except on the scoreboard of course.

Does Scarlett actually play full-back? These days he doesn't seem to ever play on the the opposition's best forward most times so i don't ever rate him as a full back. Top-line player, yes, full back, no. I laughed and laughed when Archer said he was a better full back than Silvagni. I could imagine Scarlett on Lockett, he'd get killed, especially 1 on 1.

 

[Exhale You]

Does Scarlett actually play full-back? These days he doesn't seem to ever play on the the opposition's best forward most times so i don't ever rate him as a full back.

Which is it?

BTW What's the correlation between being a FB and playing on the oppositions best forward?
Silly me, but i thought the role of a FB was to play on the oppositions FF, not whoever their 'best forward' is.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

It's more the selectors being star struck I have a problem with. They spend so much time throughout the year writing articles on the dominace of Geelong and their key players that other players just get forgotten.
I apply the same theory to guys like Chris Judd. So much has been written in the past few years about the dominance of the guy, that it's the mentality of most media experts to include him in AA consideration this year.
Players like Black and Mitchell seem to get put to the back of the line to allow the 'prolific superstars' of the competition to take place in any AA talk. Jonathan Brown is becoming one as well. Pavlich and Riewoldt would be well ahead for the CHF spot, but listening to talk back radio and reading articles you'd think Brown was way more deserving.

Well said, Gunner.

J Brown has not been all australian this year, in my opinion. In years gone by he would either take marks, or split packs and put in 2 or 3 efforts that would keep the ball in his area. This was when he was truly AA.

These days, injuries have cruelled him and he is out of the contest if he doesn't mark it. He still an absolute gun player, but I'd have Franklin, Pavlich, Richo all ahead of him in terms of big guys who draw defenders and kick a shit load of goals.

 

[Jimthegreat]

It's more the selectors being star struck I have a problem with. They spend so much time throughout the year writing articles on the dominace of Geelong and their key players that other players just get forgotten.
I apply the same theory to guys like Chris Judd. So much has been written in the past few years about the dominance of the guy, that it's the mentality of most media experts to include him in AA consideration this year.
Players like Black and Mitchell seem to get put to the back of the line to allow the 'prolific superstars' of the competition to take place in any AA talk. Jonathan Brown is becoming one as well. Pavlich and Riewoldt would be well ahead for the CHF spot, but listening to talk back radio and reading articles you'd think Brown was way more deserving.

Buddy may be put CHF and Fev FF in the AA team. Two blokes who kicked the ton or near enough. Fev's a FF and a certainty surely where as with Buddy you can be flexible where you position him as he's a highly versatile gun.

 

[Jimthegreat]

Which is it?

BTW What's the correlation between being a FB and playing on the oppositions best forward?
Silly me, but i thought the role of a FB was to play on the oppositions FF, not whoever their 'best forward' is.

I assumed most would know what I was getting at. Make it simple....best tall KP forward. They all don't suit him.

 

[AG]

Buddy may be put CHF and Fev FF in the AA team. Two blokes who kicked the ton or near enough. Fev's a FF and a certainty surely where as with Buddy you can be flexible where you position him as he's a highly versatile gun.

I think Riewoldt is and has been the best CHF this year. Buddy can take the FF spot with Fevola next to him. They normally have either a defender or forward for the last bench spot and I went with Pavlich.
Selectors like picking 3 key forwards in the starting 6.

 

[Last Line Hero]

The ball never got into the Carlton forward 50 during the 3rd qtr literally. He kicked 3 from limited chances and yes did beat Scarlett in a couple 1 on 1 contests. Not sure Scarlett's that good in 1 on 1's. The few contests they had that night. Fev certainly took the points even with 3 goals. By contrast he was bloody awful the night on Hudgton, 3 goals or not Not ll 3 goal performances are the same, except on the scoreboard of course.

Does Scarlett actually play full-back? These days he doesn't seem to ever play on the the opposition's best forward most times so i don't ever rate him as a full back. Top-line player, yes, full back, no. I laughed and laughed when Archer said he was a better full back than Silvagni. I could imagine Scarlett on Lockett, he'd get killed, especially 1 on 1.

Clueless is a word that comes to mind.

Look, I understand people don't like Scarlett much and hate the fact that I defend him so sternly, and can rebut your points with fact, but enough is enough, this sought of nonsense is just stretching it.

 

[Leather Poisoning]

I think Riewoldt is and has been the best CHF this year. Buddy can take the FF spot with Fevola next to him. They normally have either a defender or forward for the last bench spot and I went with Pavlich.
Selectors like picking 3 key forwards in the starting 6.

I'm cold on Riewoldt because his first half of the season was so quiet.

 

[pazza]

If you put Riewoldt in there, that's even more goals missed up forward. One inaccurate forward (Franklin) is enough surely!

If you put Pavlich in there, it's just another impossible to justify AA for him. He is quite possibly the only player who has never deserved AA selection, yet got it so often it becomes farcical. (eg. the fullback debacle, when he somehow knocked out Fletcher and Michael, who had clearly better seasons than him). It's almost as if the beer goggles are on with the selectors when it comes to him. My god - even Lloyd's second half of the year was better than Pavlich's full season!

So it then comes down to Brown..who if picked, could be AA captain again.

 

[AG]

^^All rubbish. You'd think the only role of Riewoldt is to kick goals. He is the best hit up CHF in the comp. Provides leadership and he's a match winner.
Don't understand your ramble about Pavlich
In regards to Brown, your the type of person that get's drawn into media hype surrounding his reputation. No doubting when at his best he is phenomenal, but those performances are becoming a rare occurence.

 

[pazza]

^^All rubbish. You'd think the only role of Riewoldt is to kick goals. He is the best hit up CHF in the comp. Provides leadership and he's a match winner.
Don't understand your ramble about Pavlich
In regards to Brown, your the type of person that get's drawn into media hype surrounding his reputation. No doubting when at his best he is phenomenal, but those performances are becoming a rare occurence.

Hardly.

Of the 3 of them, I would so dearly love to have big J. Brown at my club for a start and not the other 2. That's just the starting point (all it would do is move Lucas/Lloyd to a flank - how is that for a dangerous forward line?)

Riewoldt is a hit-up player - yes. So are most other mobile CHF's (eg Lucas). But, get him in front of goals and even Richo is more reliable. So to that end, without Nick, the Saints really would be nowhere...and with him they aren't great either. Oh...and he's not a great leader of men either. Someone like a Luke Ball should be captain of St. Kilda - or Lenny Hayes for that matter.

As for Pavlich, in his entire career, I cannot recall a single year he has deserved to be picked AA. And he's got picked in roles he's either never played..or if he, never dominated in. (full-back, centre-half back, ruck-rover, centre-half forward, full forward..he's been picked once minimum in each one). I seem to recall he got FF the year Gehrig topped the goalkicking? How in the hell does that work? As for him being picked at CHF this year - the selectors are so blinkered towards him as opposed to others, he'll get picked somewhere.

 

[TassieSaint]

Riewoldt is a hit-up player - yes. So are most other mobile CHF's (eg Lucas). But, get him in front of goals and even Richo is more reliable. So to that end, without Nick, the Saints really would be nowhere...and with him they aren't great either. Oh...and he's not a great leader of men either. Someone like a Luke Ball should be captain of St. Kilda - or Lenny Hayes for that matter.

What a load of shit. Riewoldt's influence on his team has been almost unrivaled this season. He took control of his struggling team and dragged it into the top 4 almost single handedly, which btw is real leadership and the reason he is captain of St Kilda. He was best on ground or close so many times in the second half of the season I lost count, and was pretty good in the first half. His influence on matches has been huge this year, hence why he is top 10 in all of the media awards and the BigFooty medal etc. His at times poor goalkicking is just one of many many aspects of his game and if that's your reason for not thinking he should be in the side well that is just ridiculous.