2012 draft

[Stylo]

Well I have to disagree. Sometimes you have to back your recruiters. Pick 32 and 34 are hardly late draft picks. If you have good recruiters you will pick a good inside mid at that point.

Grundy is a top 3 choice. Of course if he drops we should take him. It would be like Melbourne passing up on Natanui. Vlastuin polarises opinion. Yes he is a good honest player who will always give a contest. A bit like Ellis. But Ellis was pick 15 not 9. A top ten pick should have game changing characteristics. That is what I'm saying.

Agree to disagree then.

I don't think a top 10 pick should be anything but best available, and IMO Vlastuin will be at 9, assuming Grundy is off the table. I would take Vlas over Wines, Mayes, Garner, Plowman, Stringer, O'Rourke and Macrae, I hope our recruiters would too.

How do you even define game changing characteristics anyway? Winning the ball, distributing effectively, providing leadership and protecting teammates are things Vlas does week in week out and I would argue these things can definitely turn a game. Just because he's not going to stream down the wing take 8 bounces dodge 12 dudes and kick a banana goal from the pocket doesn't mean he's not worth pick 9. He does things differently to a player with x-factor but that doesn't make him any less effective. Arguably moreso

 

[furycat]

Was looking around on bigfooty,puntroadend,oer tigers,and the newspapers, but found a good writeup on footy tragic again on this years draft,2 nd version, was very good again, this time Oliver Wines at 9,or Brodie Grundy,at 32 Rory Atkins, 34 Sam Lowrie,43 Tom Temay, all look like good picks.

 

[Ancient Tiger]

Agree to disagree then.

I don't think a top 10 pick should be anything but best available, and IMO Vlastuin will be at 9, assuming Grundy is off the table. I would take Vlas over Wines, Mayes, Garner, Plowman, Stringer, O'Rourke and Macrae, I hope our recruiters would too.

How do you even define game changing characteristics anyway? Winning the ball, distributing effectively, providing leadership and protecting teammates are things Vlas does week in week out and I would argue these things can definitely turn a game. Just because he's not going to stream down the wing take 8 bounces dodge 12 dudes and kick a banana goal from the pocket doesn't mean he's not worth pick 9. He does things differently to a player with x-factor but that doesn't make him any less effective. Arguably moreso

You obviously rate Vlas higher than me. I'm not the only one that feels that way. http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/quigleys-2012-mock.980920/
Time unfortunately will tell who is correct. If we pick Vlas, I hope to hell YOU are right and not me!
Cheers.

 

[blaisee]

Hey mate, wasn't having a go, just wanted to test reasoning of people's thoughts.

I will disagree with your assessment of ruckman and Grundy and would just say you make a call as you see it not have general rules.

Imagine if WCE had that general rule and didn't select Natanui? I mean sometimes you get players and you just know. Sometimes there are cases you need to look at despite having your beliefs.

Grundy for me is that type of player. Of he were to drop you can't possibly select some names mentioned in front of him. You back your development too. A player has that many tools of elite potential, you recruit for the future.

My evaluation of Grundy is he is the most talented ruck choice in sometime. Hos attitude, character, willingness to learn and work hard makes him the complete package.

This is just my opinion. I don't mean to downgrade anyone's opinion on here as I don't see myself as always right so I apologise if I came across that way.

no probs bud

imho grundy is no nicnat

 

[Tigerbob]

no probs bud

imho grundy is no nicnat

Your right. He is better

 

[THE_GUN]

So what would happen if FJ pulled a left wing selection and said

Richmond selection #9 - Jesse Lonergan

 

[tigs2010]

Calling Martin_Riewoldt, Tigerbob, tigs2010 (and anyone else in the know!)
Is O'Rourke any chance at #9 or is he "locked and loaded" at the Dogs as Tanned Terry would say?
He looks a gem from what I've seen/read.

Most likely not. Anything could happen on draft day but he seems to be in that category of no hope with Whitfield/Toumpas. Anything else goes as far as I can tell.

I think we will get Atkins who can play a similar inside receiver role to a high level.

Vlastuin dishes to Atkins who has elite decision making/disposal under pressure.

 

[tigs2010]

Presuming Grundy is off the board which it appears he will would people be happy with:

Nick Vlastuin: Inside midfielder
Rory Atkins: Inside receiver
Jackson Thurlow: Strong Utility
Tim McGenniss: Inside midfielder (reminds of Foley tbh but that's from very limited viewing.)

 

[Toadvine]

So what would happen if FJ pulled a left wing selection and said

Richmond selection #9 - Jesse Lonergan

I'd be fine with it. Not much between him and Vlastuin...

 

[tigs2010]

I'd be fine with it. Not much between him and Vlastuin...

Speaking of which someone just posted on PRE than Brissy will take Vlastuin.

 

[Toadvine]

Speaking of which someone just posted on PRE than Brissy will take Vlastuin.

How confident were they?

Would certainly make it interesting.

Do you agree re my comments on Jesse and Vlastuin?

 

[THE_GUN]

How confident were they?

Would certainly make it interesting.

Do you agree re my comments on Jesse and Vlastuin?

about a month ago , I was starting to think that Lonergan might be under the radar and we might just get Lucky with 1 of our later picks - There goes that idea out the window

 

[MR]

Speaking of which someone just posted on PRE than Brissy will take Vlastuin.

They are one of the clubs who rate him top 5 in this year's draft. It's why there has been all this talk of Garner, Lonergan and Corr. Vlastuin at 9 would be a slide, yet people don't seem to understand that.

 

[MR]

The poster said Menzel will be available at our pick. I will never forgive the club if we pass on him.

 

[theflea]

Well I have looked at Grundy and he looks like a very likely type. I liked him last years and if we had of got him last year great. This year he has really come on again apparently. Apparently he isn't that smart but heh, he is a ruckman as long as he is coachable.

The thing that worries me with Vlas is the atheletics and he was big before so how will he go at AFL level against the guns. I don't know, and I am not pretending I do really, but when I read things like with Quigley saying, kicking a bit iffy, endurance might be problem, not quick , you know when it counts against the best you need every advantage. The other thing others have said or suggested is minimal upside. I don't know but it sounds like there would be better prospects around 9, maybe not 14, but 9ish there probably is another option that provide us with a bigger impact over the longer term particularly in a GF. Just reading the attributes I assess to assess player potential potentially regarding physical caracteristics.

So he can be a star, but it is going to be uphill, he would have to have a hell of a heart to be a star because physically he will not be able to do what Judd and some can do at times. That is okay but can he offer more or the same as other players we can get at 9???

If recruiters say at 9 Vlas can offer the club more in terms of impact than another player compared to other players regardless of position fine pick him. What I mean by that is if Vlas can offer less or the same than a inside mid in the next 4 years we are likely to get(remembering free agency)and if we got Mayes for eg. and we can't get a similar player in the next 4 years ability wise with same positional impact then don't get him. But if Vlas is the bees knees for inside mids and we can get better prospects than Macrae or Mayes or whoever fine , pick up Vlas. It is up to the recruiters really , I am just going on about selection principles I use, who knows what the recruiters will select. To be honest I would be disappointed if we did select Vlastuin because i means certain BF posters have telegraphed it which might compromise us actually getting him if he is indeed the best!

i agree with basically what you said apart from really taking notice of the phantom drafters as its 1 view only and the fact we just dont know how any draftees will handle the afl from juniors or other lower comps. i also dont agree necessarily that a larger size in juniors means having less affectiveness as a senior.

 

[THE_GUN]

The poster said Menzel will be available at our pick. I will never forgive the club if we pass on him.

MR just have a look at Quigleys Mock Draft
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/quigleys-2012-mock.980920/page-4

At pick #9 He has us taking Kennedy whilst - Plowman,Menzel,Vlastuin are still on the board
#32/#34 -Membrey & Temay - On the board is still Garner,Broomhead,Atkins,Wood,McIntosh,Sumner,wright & graham

WOW !!!

 

[MR]

Only thing I'm pretty sure of though is that they will take Jaksch ahead of Vlastuin though. However, the PRE poster said that Dogs will take Jaksch. Which is kind of strange because they will surely take Menzel if available.

 

[theflea]

Vlastuins kicking is good. Not elite. Won't be an issue but won't be a weapon.

He is a good kid. We will be proud to have him if we select him. Which isn't as sure as it seems.

tb and those that know. of this draft how many players do actually have elite kicking(as a %)?

 

[MR]

MR just have a look at Quigleys Mock Draft
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/quigleys-2012-mock.980920/page-4

At pick #9 He has us taking Kennedy whilst - Plowman,Menzel,Vlastuin are still on the board
#32/#34 -Membrey & Temay - On the board is still Garner,Broomhead,Atkins,Wood,McIntosh,Sumner,wright & graham

WOW !!!

To be honest, and with my utmost respect, I do not care for mock drafts on BigFooty. I have my own opinions from watching the juniors play and just because Quigley has Vlastuin going at 23, it won't change my mind in the slightest. I do appreciate their opinion though, because it is always good to see different perspectives, but again, not even recruiters know how the draft will exactly pan out. There are always big sliders and ones taken early.

 

[MR]

tb and those that know. of this draft how many players do actually have elite kicking(as a %)?

I can't say as a percent, but Mayes, Whitfield and O'Rourke all have elite kicking from a watcher's point of view.

 

[theflea]

Perhaps because you could also end up paying pick 17 for Cam Wood?

There's a few factors at play, not just free agency, but i foresee less rucks getting taken, particularly the middle of the road ones, but the clear elite talents will be like gold.

he only about this is im sure the club can identify those to go for and those you dont. if the club feel he is a gun then go for it i say.

 

[theflea]

can you please name me another 18 yr old ruckman in the history of the draft that has been ready to go in his first year?

Because I dont know of one, even in the best case scenario of a nicnat situation who is a once in a lifetime athletic beast, he made all australian in his 4th year, and there is an argument to say he didnt deserve it.

kreuzer?

 

[theflea]

great example

he averaged 10 disposals and 9 hit outs in his first year, and over his 5 year career so far, has averaged 12 disposal 2.5 marks and 16 hit outs.

Great example as to why a ruckman is a big mistake to take in the first round. Compare his influence on games to that of the player taken next in the draft at No 2 ....

well you stated ready to go i didnt realise he had to be a gun straight away.

 

[theflea]

I'm just perplexed at all this talk of him as a replacement for Tuck and Jackson -as much as I love Tucky (Jackson-not so much)- I'd want our first round pick to be a lot more that just that, have way more strings to their bow and be considerably more talented.(Not saying Vlastuin doesn't/isn't) As I keep saying - replacing Tuck & upgrading on Jackson shouldn't cost a first round pick. Pick 34 at the earliest or better yet, getting Lonergan as a DFA would pretty much do the same trick for a lot cheaper.

I know Grundy won't fix it - but I'm also worried that we seem building a team that's a bit on the slow side. We badly need pace and I would hope just relying on former GF sprint winner King and retaining a dud like White -who's not as fast as he was anyway (see last round of 2011)- isn't the whole extent of Hardwick's plan in that regard. Hope at least one of our later picks has some speed about them.


Think it tells us something about our stocks of quick players when we had to resort to entering Rance in the GF sprint in 2011.

imo we are no slow at all.

 

[THE_GUN]

To be honest, and with my utmost respect, I do not care for mock drafts on BigFooty. I have my own opinions from watching the juniors play and just because Quigley has Vlastuin going at 23, it won't change my mind in the slightest. I do appreciate their opinion though, because it is always good to see different perspectives, but again, not even recruiters know how the draft will exactly pan out. There are always big sliders and ones taken early.

With Respect MR, Its the first time i actually seen Quigleys mock just then and was suprised that he actually mentions the the concerns about Vlastuin that we had/have and were talking about a few pages ago.
Pace,Kicking,stamina.

Whilst these things can be forgiven at junior level they are very easily found out and exploited at AFL level,Vlastuin uses his strength alot and can usually be very effective at that level but will get found out at AFL level

Im not 100% Sold on Floss-Tune