No Oppo Supporters 2016 General AFL Discussion Part 2 (Sydney Posters Only)

[RW]

The whole worldwide anti-doping regime works on strict liability. Presumably to avoid a repeat of the East German situation.

There's just not that much at stake if only team doctors/administrators etc cop bans.

Yup. Even if they didn't know what they were taking, that in itself is enough to make them guilty under the current rules as it's their job to know. Maybe that is harsh, but if you are serious about keeping sport clean, there has to be a strong deterrent.

 

[miggs]

Its official one of the dirtiest snipiest players of the last decade is now the 2012 "fairest and best" brownlow medallist.

 

[sataris]

Its official one of the dirtiest snipiest players of the last decade is now the 2012 "fairest and best" brownlow medallist.

Joke of an award anyway

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[GoTheSwannies]

Surely there was chatter in the locker rooms about the regime efc were implementing at the time.

I feel bad that the players were put in that position and they were certainly let down by the club. But the senior players in particular should have known better. If not cheats, they're at the very least negligent for taking those substances.

Jobe did not hand back the medal of his own volition, he was going to be stripped of it and would have been offered an opportunity to hand it in before the AFL made an official decision.

I don't really blame him, it would have been tough handing it back, but he's hardly a saint for following through with the only option available to him other than forcing the AFL to strip him of the medal. If he really was honourable, he would have handed it back a month ago when the final decision was passed.

 

[Bonz]

The whole worldwide anti-doping regime works on strict liability. Presumably to avoid a repeat of the East German situation.

There's just not that much at stake if only team doctors/administrators etc cop bans.

I can understand why the players did it though, I was supplied protein powder with my club and two years ago before the whole Essendon saga I would of just taken it without thinking twice. Because of that though I actually took the time to check each ingredient on Wada's website.

I learnt from Essendon's mistake, but I am not sure that the players themselves had the opportunity to learn from someone else's similar mistake.

If your a player you put your trust in the administration/ medical staff. If you go ahead and say to the club that you don't want to go through with the injections you may come across as being unprofessional or not willing to take the most out of yourself (Especially if all the other players are taking part in the program).

There have been many innocent players careers/ reputations ruined by the administration of the Essendon football club. Personally I don't believe any of the players are to blame.

I believe there should be more at stake, but perhaps jail time for the administration and coaches that took part and implemented the program is the way to go, rather than punishing the players who thought they were getting injected with something legal and were likely pressured into taking the substances.

 

[doona]

I can understand why the players did it though, I was supplied protein powder with my club and two years ago before the whole Essendon saga I would of just taken it without thinking twice. Because of that though I actually took the time to check each ingredient on Wada's website.

Comparing a protein powder to offsite injections not carried out by the club doctor? And in addition not knowing what you were injected with?

That's like comparing coffee to heroin.

I have played decent level Sport, I would never let anyone Inject me without 100% knowing what it was and knowing that the person administering the injection was a doctor.

On Nexus 6P using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Kirkswan]

I do not subscribe to the 'its not the players fault' bandwagon. It is their fault. They signed contracts that included clauses in which they agreed not take, inhale, inject certain substances and provided with the details of where to find the list. They were advised that anything prescribed by any TDs (treating doctors) should be checked against the list before use, as ignorance would not constitute a defence.

They engaged managers, signed contracts and are paid large amounts of money to abstain from certain substances, to monitor what goes into the body and to avoid activities that may interfere with their ability to play. I believe all these guys must have known on some level... no matter how old or inexperienced they were. When you are asked to do the dodgy, you know...

If there is something dodgy going on in your workplace you know about it. You might miss it if it's two or three people in a big workspace, but in this case it's the whole team and the support staff, they signed a whole bunch of waivers, and then are injected by someone other than the team doctor, they knew there was an issue. And by not saying anything, not standing up and saying NO or reporting it to the AFL, they are complicit. They bring the game, the AFL, the club and themselves into disrepute.

These guys (all bloody 20 of them) are saying that this was never raised with their managers, not one of them ever discussed it with the team doctor, that Jobe (and all of the others) never discussed it with his father, or any other EFC past players that they were friends with or mentored by... what an absolute crock!

Sure the trusted their club, they trusted them not to get caught...

 

[Heeney2Franklin]

Its official one of the dirtiest snipiest players of the last decade is now the 2012 "fairest and best" brownlow medallist.

Sniper sure but the bloke can play, more of a joke is Cotchin.

 

[The King!]

I can understand why the players did it though, I was supplied protein powder with my club and two years ago before the whole Essendon saga I would of just taken it without thinking twice. Because of that though I actually took the time to check each ingredient on Wada's website.

I learnt from Essendon's mistake, but I am not sure that the players themselves had the opportunity to learn from someone else's similar mistake.

If your a player you put your trust in the administration/ medical staff. If you go ahead and say to the club that you don't want to go through with the injections you may come across as being unprofessional or not willing to take the most out of yourself (Especially if all the other players are taking part in the program).

There have been many innocent players careers/ reputations ruined by the administration of the Essendon football club. Personally I don't believe any of the players are to blame.

I believe there should be more at stake, but perhaps jail time for the administration and coaches that took part and implemented the program is the way to go, rather than punishing the players who thought they were getting injected with something legal and were likely pressured into taking the substances.

Players get endless education and briefing, they are paid well to play sport and be compliant

Nothing like you taking some protein powder at training mate

 

[miggs]

Sniper sure but the bloke can play, more of a joke is Cotchin.

Cotchin doesnt go around trying to hurt people. Im happy for him. Not that sniping campaigner

 

[GotTheGoodes]

Players get endless education and briefing, they are paid well to play sport and be compliant

Nothing like you taking some protein powder at training mate

To be fair to Bonz I don't think for a second he was comparing protein powder to offsite injections... He was just using an example he can relate to & showing how, at the time, the players put their faith in the club. Prior to this there wasn't really any precedent for such things. We know some players questioned it - this was the reason for the waivers being made. The club told the players it was legit but flying close to the edge. The players needed to make sure noone else knew about it or it could be seen to be cheating...

"but it's ok, look here's a waiver from the club saying it's not illegal. All good, okay?"

The players were tricked & lied too. Yeah something smelled suss & they got nothing but reassurances from the club itself saying it was all above board... I can certainly see where the players were severely wronged.

In the same regard, I wouldn't have wanted the law to work any other way. The players need to be held responsible or loopholes become too easy to find.

Let it be a lesson to all players. I'm sure the EFC players penalised for this wish they'd had a similar example to fall back on before being administered whatever it was they were.

 

[Bonz]

Players get endless education and briefing, they are paid well to play sport and be compliant

Nothing like you taking some protein powder at training mate

I was just using the protein power as an example because I trust the coaches who run the club. (Not to mention you would be surprised how many powders and fat burners have banned suppliments, even Oxyshred which would be close to the biggest fat burner in Australia has Higenamine in it which would get you banned for 2 years).

As GotTheGoodes touched on the players questioned the injections but this was the reason waivers were signed. They players were also told that the supplement was legal just borderline. It is highly likely they were told they were getting injected with something but were actually injected with something completely different.

The players were lied to and completely wronged, If I took a protein powder given to me by my fencing club and it had a completely different protein powder inside despite what the packaging said (And I wouldn't personally know the difference) should I be held responsible? Cause that is the exact same situation the players faced.

As I mentioned before, I believe the players didn't deserve to get banned, but there needs to be a larger punishment for the administrators (Jail time would be the perfect deterrent).

 

[doona]

I was just using the protein power as an example because I trust the coaches who run the club. (Not to mention you would be surprised how many powders and fat burners have banned suppliments, even Oxyshred which would be close to the biggest fat burner in Australia has Higenamine in it which would get you banned for 2 years).

As GotTheGoodes touched on the players questioned the injections but this was the reason waivers were signed. They players were also told that the supplement was legal just borderline. It is highly likely they were told they were getting injected with something but were actually injected with something completely different.

The players were lied to and completely wronged, If I took a protein powder given to me by my fencing club and it had a completely different protein powder inside despite what the packaging said (And I wouldn't personally know the difference) should I be held responsible? Cause that is the exact same situation the players faced.

As I mentioned before, I believe the players didn't deserve to get banned, but there needs to be a larger punishment for the administrators (Jail time would be the perfect deterrent).

I completely disagree with this. AFL players are paid big bucks to play a sport that is a signatory to WADA. It is 100% the players responsibility to know what is going into their bodies. At the end of the day, they were playing on a different level so they should not have been allowed to play in the AFL.

I feel sorry for the rookies, as in my opinion you have a leadership group of players like Fletcher, Watson etc.... that should have done more to prevent it.

If you are given powders etc... by your fencing club and you take them blindly, that is 100% your risk. It has nothing to do with the person that gave it to you.

In addition, I don't think their should be jail time for what the Essendon administrators. Jail time is a possibility if you are a practicing doctor and pharmacist and you are negligent (There are provisions as well, if a doctor was negligent and gave you Y when the documentation said X you can challenge it as medical documentation is official). The fact is they did not get injections from a doctor.

ie. If I go to a doctor and get a prescription for X, then go to my pharmacist and get a prescription for X I have official documentation to what I am putting in my body. I can then go and look up the ingredients on the WADA site, to make sure I can take X. If the drug is not X because of a mistake from a doctor/pharmacist there are provisions to get out of a WADA suspension and the doctors could loose there license or worse as doctors can face prison. If drug X is illegal under WADA, it is my job as a sportsman to know. So if a doctor prescribes it, I need to look up the ingredients before taking otherwise you would face a suspension.

If I go and get X from my drug dealer in a clear bag, and it turns out to be an illegal drug, it is my fault. It is not my drug dealers fault I took an incorrect drug.

 

[YorshireSwan]

Am I the only one that respects Watson more after this whole drugs saga than before? (Getting a bit sick and tired of the amount of crap him and the other Essendon players are copping on social media)

He appears to have always been upfront and honest in his interviews. Was the first player to admit they were injected with unknown substances. He has handed in his Brownlow medal (Hard to imagine many players doing that).

Personally I don't think the players should have been punished at all, You should be able to trust your own club and it's doctors. They signed forms believing that the supplements were legal and were told they were getting injected with something else entirely. Personally I am not sure what else they could have done? (If Fencing Australia or Victoria suggested suppliments to me and told me to take them to increase my chances of being on the team I would do it in a second if they told me they were safe).and

This entire situation was the fault of the administrators, doctors, coaches and Dank, they players didn't deserve to get punished.

If he had handed it back straight after they were found guilty I might have respected him more, but lets be honest he only handed it back because he didn't want the embarrassment of being stripped of it ... that not class or dignity thats self-preservation.

I actually have a very differing view to yourself, I actually hold him more culpable than the majority of the playing group.

Jobe was their captain, he was their leader, and he has admitted that he took substances and had injections that he had no idea what they were ... thats not true leadership! He is the one player in the group who had the position and most importantly the statue within the club to challenge the 'status quo' and ensure the integrity of the playing group ... he failed miserably at this very basic premise of being a leader.

 

[Punts]

What a joke

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Looks like the GWS academy region is being cut, about time. If the Riverina is a development area, I'm the Pope. Looks like they miss out on 2 or 3 top liners next year.

 

[RW]

To be fair to Bonz I don't think for a second he was comparing protein powder to offsite injections... He was just using an example he can relate to & showing how, at the time, the players put their faith in the club. Prior to this there wasn't really any precedent for such things. We know some players questioned it - this was the reason for the waivers being made. The club told the players it was legit but flying close to the edge. The players needed to make sure noone else knew about it or it could be seen to be cheating...

"but it's ok, look here's a waiver from the club saying it's not illegal. All good, okay?"

The players were tricked & lied too. Yeah something smelled suss & they got nothing but reassurances from the club itself saying it was all above board... I can certainly see where the players were severely wronged.

In the same regard, I wouldn't have wanted the law to work any other way. The players need to be held responsible or loopholes become too easy to find.

Let it be a lesson to all players. I'm sure the EFC players penalised for this wish they'd had a similar example to fall back on before being administered whatever it was they were.

Good post, but I don't think the players are as innocent as you make out, I'm pretty sure that most players when presented with an opportunity to gain an advantage over the rest of the competition would take it if they thought they could get away with it. They surely must have known the supplements program was on the very edge of what was allowed. If they did have suspicions about the program, they should have acted on them, instead of closing ranks and making things worse for themselves by not co-operating with investigators. This was the main reason why the players did NOT get a 'no significant fault' discount when CAS handed down its verdict:

The CAS Panel made the finding that there was a group decision by the Players to keep the program a secret, and that ... no player who filled out a doping control form during the 2012 season declared Thymosin on the form ... the CAS Panel asked the players present at the hearing why they did not declare the injections on the form, but did not accept the answers. It found that the ‘evidence appeared a calculated (but vain) attempt to justify the non-disclosures’. The culture of secrecy was said to be so strong that a Player suffering from a heart arrhythmia did not disclose the injections to his treating doctor.

The final nail in the coffin for the Players’ No Significant Fault claim appears to be the evidence given by the Players at the CAS hearing regarding the nature of the February 2012 players meeting with Mr Dank and Mr Robinson; the meeting at which the consent forms where signed. Ricky Dyson recalled the program being described as like ‘being on a cliff and going right to the end but not going over it’. Given that statement, the Players were aware of the risky nature of the program and were ‘insufficiently careful as to the nature of the regime’.

The players only had themselves to blame. Hopefully the suspensions will mean that more players will take responsibility for what goes into their bodies in future.

Having said that, I agree with what you said earlier, EFC would probably be the safest club to be at now in relation to supplements use, they aren't going to take any chances after this.

 

[The King!]

To be fair to Bonz I don't think for a second he was comparing protein powder to offsite injections... He was just using an example he can relate to & showing how, at the time, the players put their faith in the club. Prior to this there wasn't really any precedent for such things. We know some players questioned it - this was the reason for the waivers being made. The club told the players it was legit but flying close to the edge. The players needed to make sure noone else knew about it or it could be seen to be cheating...

"but it's ok, look here's a waiver from the club saying it's not illegal. All good, okay?"

The players were tricked & lied too. Yeah something smelled suss & they got nothing but reassurances from the club itself saying it was all above board... I can certainly see where the players were severely wronged.

In the same regard, I wouldn't have wanted the law to work any other way. The players need to be held responsible or loopholes become too easy to find.

Let it be a lesson to all players. I'm sure the EFC players penalised for this wish they'd had a similar example to fall back on before being administered whatever it was they were.

I know where Bonz was coming from, i agree to a point that yeah doctors and club tell you this blah blah blah

But cmon you know the rules, you know how serious it is, you sit through endless talks, you know they test, you have to as a player question everything and eliminate all doubt and trust no one!!

End of the day despite all the assurances and waivers the buck stops with you as a player

 

[doona]

Looks like the GWS academy region is being cut, about time. If the Riverina is a development area, I'm the Pope. Looks like they miss out on 2 or 3 top liners next year.

Are people already in the academy exempt? ie. is it for signing new academy players.

 

[GotTheGoodes]

I know where Bonz was coming from, i agree to a point that yeah doctors and club tell you this blah blah blah

But cmon you know the rules, you know how serious it is, you sit through endless talks, you know they test, you have to as a player question everything and eliminate all doubt and trust no one!!

End of the day despite all the assurances and waivers the buck stops with you as a player

Yep, don't disagree at all mate.

I just feel bad for the banned players but ultimately don't disagree with their punishment none-the-less. A tough situation but ultimately the players have to be responsible or the whole system can be rorted with "innocent"/"ignorant" "victims".

 

[Strangways]

A relation of mine was at Essendon at the time and was having anywhere from 15 to 30 injections a week because Hird told him it would be good for his development.

 

[GotTheGoodes]

A relation of mine was at Essendon at the time and was having anywhere from 15 to 30 injections a week because Hird told him it would be good for his development.

The brother/son of a family I know was a member of the banned players and what I've got out of his involvement is nothing like that at all. Not as dramatic or over sensationalised as the media reporting it wanted it to be.

Whoever you are talking about sounds like his experience was nothing like the experience I've heard from another player mixed up in it all.

I guess really only the players & those involved in actually injecting them know the real truth.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Sniper sure but the bloke can play, more of a joke is Cotchin.

2012 Cotchin was elite

 

[miggs]

Well i sat on a bus next to a guy who was the cousin of the canteen ladies boyfriends sister in law. She said they're all dirty cheats and they deserve everything they got.

 

[sataris]

Not surprised people are buying into good bloke spin,

Poor little drug cheats.