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You want to see what we have looked like for most games this year?

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You want to see what we looked like against GWS?

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That's what no defensive pressure from the forward line does.
 
Janus said:
From the forwards. Specifically, the small forwards. Let's put it this way - Dixon, playing like dog shit, generated 7 pressure acts and laid 0 tackles. Since that's not really his role, you can understand that. Amon? 8 pressure acts, 1 tackle. Young? 10 pressure acts, 1 tackle. Wingard? 11 pressure acts, 1 tackle. Neade? 13 pressure acts, 2 tackles. Compare this to Boak - who everyone says is playing shit: 26 pressure acts, 6 tackles. Ebert: 20 pressure acts, 4 tackles. Hartlett: 22 pressure acts, 6 tackles.

Not one of the tackles made by our forwards was laid inside 50. You know what that means? It means that these ****s were clogging space in the midfield when they created this pressure, but they were too concerned about getting out the back of their opponent to actually create a real contest.

When Jake Neade is your best defensive small forward, you're going to have a bad time.

I ******* said Young is a defensive liability, and if he retains his spot in the side we're going to keep failing because his attitude is to attack first and not defend...which spreads to the rest of the small forwards because they think "if I'm going to do all this hard work and this **** is going to continually push forward to get a cheap goal from it, what's the point?"

Yeah, he scored goals - in two games we got absolutely flogged in and a scratch match against Essendon. Whoop-dee-do. He needs to pull his finger out and realize there's more to football than just scoring.

Amon is even worse - the worst front runner I've seen. Doesn't get involved in shit unless he's going to be on the end of a chain. As for Wingard - I'm prepared to cut him slack because he shouldn't have to do the heavy lifting coming back from a hamstring. Not next week though,

Get rid of Young, Neade and Amon and replace them with Snelling, Colquhoun and Palmer. We don't carry defensive passengers on this team.
Click to expand...
Top post.

One name that you didn't mention is Robbie Gray, I can't seem to find pressure acts anywhere, but I would be interested to hear how Robbie does. The same goes for Sam Gray honestly.

I feel like our better players get away with poor effort while our fringe players get scape goated way too often. Dropping Impey was a huge mistake IMO as even though he wasn't playing that well he was giving more effort than anyone and by extension was having more of a positive impact on the game.

Dropping him over someone else sends the message "if you are established you don't need to perform above par as someone else will always be dropped first".
 

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HaaWingard! said:
Top post.

One name that you didn't mention is Robbie Gray, I can't seem to find pressure acts anywhere, but I would be interested to hear how Robbie does. The same goes for Sam Gray honestly.

I feel like our better players get away with poor effort while our fringe players get scape goated way too often. Dropping Impey was a huge mistake IMO as even though he wasn't playing that well he was giving more effort than anyone and by extension was having more of a positive impact on the game.

Dropping him over someone else sends the message "if you are established you don't need to perform above par as someone else will always be dropped first".
Click to expand...

Gray was 21 pressure acts, 3 tackles. Though he had 0 tackles to half time so you wonder if the coaches didn't tell him to pull his finger out defensively. Wines - 13 pressure acts, 5 tackles. Sam Gray - 15 pressure acts, 3 tackles.

If you really want all this put into context, try this - Matthew Lobbe - 14 pressure acts, 4 tackles.

NOW you know how shit we were at creating real pressure.
 
Janus said:
You want to see what we have looked like for most games this year?

View attachment 237067

You want to see what we looked like against GWS?

View attachment 237068

That's what no defensive pressure from the forward line does.
Click to expand...

You talk about no defensive pressure from the forwards, and I agree with you. But we were swamped at the stoppages all game such that the forwards never really had an opportunity to apply pressure in our forward 50 to begin with.

What I don't understand is that the game was played so far deep in our defensive half, but it didn't look congested by any means in their attacking 50. Yet, when we somehow got the ball out of our defensive 50, we were looking up and literally no one was in our attacking half presenting for the ball. Is that just a magnification example of the poor work rate or am I missing something?
 
Janus said:
When Jake Neade is your best defensive small forward, you're going to have a bad time.
Click to expand...

I think that's probably a bit harsh. i'd say thats what he's in the team for.

I ******* said Young is a defensive liability, and if he retains his spot in the side we're going to keep failing because his attitude is to attack first and not defend...which spreads to the rest of the small forwards because they think "if I'm going to do all this hard work and this **** is going to continually push forward to get a cheap goal from it, what's the point?"

Yeah, he scored goals - in two games we got absolutely flogged in and a scratch match against Essendon. Whoop-dee-do. He needs to pull his finger out and realize there's more to football than just scoring.
Click to expand...

Young suffers defensively because his top speed is about the same level as most pensioners walking pace.
 
Chewy316 said:
You talk about no defensive pressure from the forwards, and I agree with you. But we were swamped at the stoppages all game such that the forwards never really had an opportunity to apply pressure in our forward 50 to begin with.

What I don't understand is that the game was played so far deep in our defensive half, but it didn't look congested by any means in their attacking 50. Yet, when we somehow got the ball out of our defensive 50, we were looking up and literally no one was in our attacking half presenting for the ball. Is that just a magnification example of the poor work rate or am I missing something?
Click to expand...

Defensive pressure from the forwards doesn't exist just in the forward line - they are meant to drop back into midfield and help when we are getting smashed, then run forward in waves when we have the ball. So again, the forwards weren't working hard enough - paying token service to defence and only pushing forward when it was clear a goal scoring opportunity would present itself.
 
Janus said:
Defensive pressure from the forwards doesn't exist just in the forward line - they are meant to drop back into midfield and help when we are getting smashed, then run forward in waves when we have the ball. So again, the forwards weren't working hard enough - paying token service to defence and only pushing forward when it was clear a goal scoring opportunity would present itself.
Click to expand...

Yes I agree with you there. But after every goal teams have the opportunity to reset the structure back to 'status-quo' so to speak. Our centre clearance workers were piss weak yesterday, and have been all season. I know Lobbe is a spud but he's not getting pantsed the last few weeks. Our centre clearance guys aren't getting the ball from the stoppage and it's creating a pseudo-effect of nullifying the guys we have in the forward 50 anyway. In effect, it's making them redundant. We can't push the forward guys into the middle at the bounce because if we do we have no one to kick to if we win the footy, yet by trying to keep structure we are almost guaranteeing open space in the middle because our guys aren't working hard enough there.

I hate our current midfield setup, softer than a bloody aloe vera tissue. Getting killed at that centre stoppage, and many other stoppages for that matter always is going to result in the opposition dictating the field of play. Good teams are able to push back. We don't. We roll over. It just appears like our team from the top down has a clusterfvck of problems that is not going to be fixed in their entirety in 1 season.
 
In the second half - on 3 occasions that we kicked a goal, they won the centre clearance and kicked a reply goal within 10 seconds. That's not gameplan stuff.
 
Macca19 said:
I think that's probably a bit harsh. i'd say thats what he's in the team for.
Click to expand...

I know that's why he's in the team. I was referring to his production in the role. But I don't think it's his fault. I'd actually put Impey up forward with him because I think they could work well together.

Young suffers defensively because his top speed is about the same level as most pensioners walking pace.
Click to expand...

Also suffers defensively when we have three people corralling a player and he goes in and gives away a free kick. I thought about posting what Hinkley said about "2 games not being a career" in that lame toast thread but I just knew he would return back to the chipscab I think he is soon enough. Why do you think he's always the one on the end of goals? It's because he's always trying to steal a march on his opponent and going goal side. He's always ****ing done it, and it's sad that he seems to have electric pace running towards goal with ball in hand.

Has the tools but is too lazy to use them. He could be anything if he applied himself better.
 
Janus what is the magic formula, what needs to happen for this to turn around. Shouold we just go man on man one for one and see if we can match it, none of tihs zone, counter attack press nonsense that we've seen so far. Just good old school one on one each player beats their opposition and e have a chance (or is this too much part of the old age era of the sport to work these days)

Is it all over? Surely not, there must be something the coaching staff can do to get to the players and get them going.
 

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RussellEbertHandball said:
In the second half - on 3 occasions that we kicked a goal, they won the centre clearance and kicked a reply goal within 10 seconds. That's not gameplan stuff.
Click to expand...
Yep. Stuck out like dog's balls. Couldn't believe the ease at which they walked the ball out of clearances and into a goal.
Even that first quarter against Hawthorn last year when we piled on the goals, our intensity was immense around the stoppages. But it didn't feel like it was roles reversed, it felt like we just couldn't give a damn in the middle.
 
R_Gray_Jnr_Jnr said:
Janus what is the magic formula, what needs to happen for this to turn around. Shouold we just go man on man one for one and see if we can match it, none of tihs zone, counter attack press nonsense that we've seen so far. Just good old school one on one each player beats their opposition and e have a chance (or is this too much part of the old age era of the sport to work these days)

Is it all over? Surely not, there must be something the coaching staff can do to get to the players and get them going.
Click to expand...

If you do that Hinkley might as well start clearing out his desk, because the players have dictated to the coach what his game plan is. And that's the last thing we need - another coach getting the sack because these campaigners don't like the task he sets for them.

What we need to do is keep churning through the list and finding the players who are willing to do what is required. The injection of a new player like a Snelling or a Palmer might be all that's needed. No one knows when a side gets out of a funk, because you're dealing with a whole range of factors. All it takes is a good win when everyone follows the plan and puts in an effort.
 
Snelling would be very close to debut on current SANFL form, he's been tacklin' aplenty. One more good outing should see him promoted.
 
Forzaport said:
Snelling would be very close to debut on current SANFL form, he's been tacklin' aplenty. One more good outing should see him promoted.
Click to expand...
It would bloody help if we had played a SANFL game on the weekend to assess things.
 
RussellEbertHandball said:
In the second half - on 3 occasions that we kicked a goal, they won the centre clearance and kicked a reply goal within 10 seconds. That's not gameplan stuff.
Click to expand...
Skipping through the replay of the 3rd quarter now.

In all of them we have 2 players on the attacking side and 1 on the defensive side. The guy on the defensive side isn't there to defend though - it's an attacking mid like Gray or Boak, who runs through the contest and tries to shark Lobbe's dominant tap work. In some of them we don't have a sweeper either, so if GWS get a clean clearance it's all open space in front of them.

This is a really shit set up. Other teams might do this once or twice a game, not every bounce.

Here are the replays:

Start of qtr

2nd centre bounce

3rd centre bounce

4th centre bounce

The 4th qtr is more of the same. This one was pretty good.

4th qtr
 
The main question people should be asking is: "Why does it take us 5 seconds to transition from an offensive structure to a defensive one and vice versa?" Because that's what Hartlett admitted in his press conference.

Now, just imagine this in your mind. It's a centre clearance, we are setup in offensive positions. Suddenly, the opposition clear the ball...

1.

None of the players react...

2.

The player fires off a quick handball to another player on the run...

3.

The defenders scramble, trying to cover the players steaming into forward 50...

4.

Our players try to lay a finger on the ball carrier but he's already too far ahead...

5.

Too late, they've scored.

This is why it's mindset and not gameplan.
 
Janus said:
The main question people should be asking is: "Why does it take us 5 seconds to transition from an offensive structure to a defensive one and vice versa?" Because that's what Hartlett admitted in his press conference.

Now, just imagine this in your mind. It's a centre clearance, we are setup in offensive positions. Suddenly, the opposition clear the ball...

1.

None of the players react...

2.

The player fires off a quick handball to another player on the run...

3.

The defenders scramble, trying to cover the players steaming into forward 50...

4.

Our players try to lay a finger on the ball carrier but he's already too far ahead...

5.

Too late, they've scored.

This is why it's mindset and not gameplan.
Click to expand...
Its also tactics. If you are losing centre bounces straight after you kick goals and the opo score a reply goal in 5 to 10 seconds, don't set up offensively for that centre bounce. Its pretty basic.
 
Janus said:
The main question people should be asking is: "Why does it take us 5 seconds to transition from an offensive structure to a defensive one and vice versa?" Because that's what Hartlett admitted in his press conference.

Now, just imagine this in your mind. It's a centre clearance, we are setup in offensive positions. Suddenly, the opposition clear the ball...

1.

None of the players react...

2.

The player fires off a quick handball to another player on the run...

3.

The defenders scramble, trying to cover the players steaming into forward 50...

4.

Our players try to lay a finger on the ball carrier but he's already too far ahead...

5.

Too late, they've scored.

This is why it's mindset and not gameplan.
Click to expand...

Barring late in a game when we're down, there is no way we are setting up in an offensive position every single bounce.

And if we are, it's a tactical disaster given our ruck issues.

A good centre bounce setup should allow for easy transition from offence to defence and shouldn't leave us completely on toast when the opposition get first hands on it.

That's why it's not just mindset. There are massive issues with how we work around the stoppages, and we rely on Robbie Gray so much just to be Robbie Gray and get himself out into space with pump fakes and strong hips. We have plenty of capable, talented players in there.
 
Those pressure acts stats are interesting

Boak wines lobbe hartlett have decent numbers.....yet GWS smashed us in the centre.....
 
BIG BILLY F said:
Those pressure acts stats are interesting

Boak wines lobbe hartlett have decent numbers.....yet GWS smashed us in the centre.....
Click to expand...
Just means that GWS handled the pressure better than our players who collapsed when the heat was on.
And that's the reason why, as nice as they are, pressure acts don't come close to the "real" stats like tackles and contested possessions.
 

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