2017 Rising Star Discussion

[cryptor]

Take a look at @AFLPlayerRating's Tweet:
The third picture shows just how consistent Burton has been. Whilst still being the highest scorer over the year as a whole. Which is what this award is for. Curnow freakish finish though

That third picture illustrates what I was trying to say well. Others have had higher peaks at different points but taking the season long, holistic view (which is what the judging is meant to be based on according to an article I read on the 2016 award) Burton has had the best year. But it does show how close it is and there's nothing to say that judges can't factor in other stats that don't share this result.

 

[cryptor]

The problem with this is that the player ratings are utter garbage.

That seems to depend on who you ask and when. We as a community seem to use it as a credible source only when it suits our arguments. That confirmation bias as someone said a couple pages ago.

 

[Suntory Boss Coffee]

The problem with this is that the player ratings are utter garbage.

It's as good as we have got besides a bias eye

 

[Procrastinator35]

You got the consistently part right.

The part about a level the other 3 haven't been able to match?

Wrong.

Can't speak for the others but Charlie Curnow's 2nd half of the season has been of a higher standard.

Curnow's second half has shaded Burton, yes, for sure....But his first half was well below par by comparison....And once again....It's over an entire season.

Curnow's second half of the season makes him worthy of being in the convo....Nothing more, nothing less.

The problem with this is that the player ratings are utter garbage.

Well, you've got to argue that point really....Especially given Burton has McGrath's measure in almost every single facet of the game..... Bar nice, little, safe 2 meter handballs.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Curnow's second half has shaded Burton, yes, for sure....But his first half was well below par by comparison....And once again....It's over an entire season.

Curnow's second half of the season makes him worthy of being in the convo....Nothing more, nothing less.



Well, you've got to argue that point really....Especially given Burton has McGrath's measure in almost every single facet of the game..... Bar nice, little, safe 2 meter handballs.

god almighty it's tiresome to read Hawthorn supporters denigrating McGrath to make themselves feel better about Burton. You really are a sad little man

 

[Procrastinator35]

god almighty it's tiresome to read Hawthorn supporters denigrating McGrath to make themselves feel better about Burton. You really are a sad little man

LOL....There's no need to denigrate McGrath....Who is going to be an absolute champion.

But lets face facts Lance.....By almost all statistical comparisons in 2017, Burton has had a superior season.....And it's not even close.

 

[Le Archie]

That third picture illustrates what I was trying to say well. Others have had higher peaks at different points but taking the season long, holistic view (which is what the judging is meant to be based on according to an article I read on the 2016 award) Burton has had the best year. But it does show how close it is and there's nothing to say that judges can't factor in other stats that don't share this result.

I would say this stat is something that isn't measured as part of the player rankings but speaks volumes for his impact on games. When you look purely at his rebound and offensive play he is very impressive, but its the stats that aren't recorded in these rankings for McGrath which make him even more impressive.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

LOL....There's no need to denigrate McGrath....Who is going to be an absolute champion.

But lets face facts Lance.....By almost all statistical comparisons in 2017, Burton has had a superior season.....And it's not even close.

whatever you think, I couldn't be bothered arguing the point with you, as you've shown you only cherry pick stats anyway.

But you are denigrating him, by saying he does "nice, little, safe 2 meter handballs". You clearly don't even watch him play. You and others feel some pathological need to talk down Burton's competitors to make him appear better in your eyes. Like I said, very sad.

I don't really care who wins, but the Hawthorn posturing around Burton makes me really want anyone but him to win. And that's not because I don't like Burton, I just laugh at the insecure chest beating

 

[Bic]

I had my doubts over Charlie Curnow - at the start of the year I used to cringe when he got the ball, it looked like it took 3 seconds for him to process what he needed to do and seemed far too slow for the game at AFL level.

Then it just clicked and he hasn't looked back.

 

[Procrastinator35]

whatever you think, I couldn't be bothered arguing the point with you, as you've shown you only cherry pick stats anyway.

I'm not sure how Possessions, kicks & marks are 'cherry-picking'....You know, the very essence of our game....But, sure; If you say so Lance.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

I'm not sure how Possessions, kicks & marks are 'cherry-picking'....You know, the very essence of our game....But, sure; If you say so Lance.

because the players play different positions and different roles, der

 

[Procrastinator35]

because the players play different positions and different roles, der

SPP plays midfield & Burton has him well covered in all those facets also.....The same with Curnow, other than with marks...In fact, Burton has 140 more possessions than Curnow across the entire season.

Again...It's about a high end level of consistency across the length of an entire season....And based upon that formulae, it's not even close.

A 450 possession season for a 20 year old kid, from 21 games, is very special....And coming on the back of the horrific leg fracture he sustained, which included a dislocated knee-cap & damage to his knee cartilage.....It's nothing short of phenomenal.

Has easily been our best & most consistent defender all season.....Add another 4 possessions to that average & we're talking All Australian standard.

 

[Mr_Plow]

With all due respect to Burton's friends, family and colleagues, he tried playing forward of the ball against us and could only manage 6 touches in the first half.

He struggled mightily when forced to create space amid congestion and win possessions through contested situations.
Needs to add pure ball-winning to his repertoire to make the transition to full-time midfielder.

I'm more confident with McGrath's midfield prospects moving forward, but still extremely bullish about Burton's midfield potential.

 

[KermitJagger]

because the players play different positions and different roles, der

I mean, relative to his position I'd say Burton has had a standout year. Same with McGrath, he's had a standout year too.

Burton and McGrath have not only been great for their position as rising stars, they've also been great for their position in general. McGrath in the pocket and Burton off the HBF. That's the difference between those two and Curnow/SPP for mine.

Powell-Pepper was a good midfielder for the first half, and has been an eh midfielder since. Curnow had been an eh mid-sized forward up until the second half of the year where he started to shine.

It's a matter of consistently good football (beyond rising star level) vs inconsistently good foodball. SPP and Curnow have obviously had the best individual games as rising stars, but also some of the worst. I can't remember a bad game from either Burton or McGrath.

 

[KermitJagger]

With all due respect to Burton's friends, family and colleagues, he tried playing forward of the ball against us and could only manage 6 touches in the first half.

He struggled mightily when forced to create space amid congestion and win possessions through contested situations.
Needs to add pure ball-winning to his repertoire to make the transition to full-time midfielder.

I'm more confident with McGrath's midfield prospects moving forward, but still extremely bullish about Burton's midfield potential.

After playing a role for an entire year I wouldn't expect a kid to thrive when he's thrown elsewhere. I can see McGrath making a more immediate impact in the midfield as he has less size to grow into, but whether McGrath has a higher ceiling or not I don't know.

 

[jake_h03]

Procrastinator, with every post you're just proving how little you know about the game. Do you play footy? Or just supercoach?

Plenty of other Hawks supporters on here have made sound, logical cases for Burton winning the award, which he probably will, (Cryptor pretty much nailed it) but you just keep regurgitating simple stats and try to use it as proof that it's a non contest. There's so much more to football than numbers. 1 possession can have more influence on a game than 5 in some instances. Stats tell a very small part of the story. Maybe 20%. The rest you can't quantify in numbers, you have to watch and analyse games to see the influence the player has. Cripps had 210 more disposals than Hogan in 2015 and didn't win it.

You're acting as if all 9 judges will give the 5 votes to Burton. I guarantee you they won't. It will be a lot closer than you think. I wouldn't be surprised if all of the 4 top chances receive 5 votes from someone, it's that close and they all have different strengths and weaknesses

 

[Mr_Plow]

After playing a role for an entire year I wouldn't expect a kid to thrive when he's thrown elsewhere. I can see McGrath making a more immediate impact in the midfield as he has less size to grow into, but whether McGrath has a higher ceiling or not I don't know.

Both have extremely high ceilings.

Like you said, it's easier to see McGrath make the transition smoother and sooner. That's not to say Burton won't, just that it'll take more time.

 

[KermitJagger]

Both have extremely high ceilings.

Like you said, it's easier to see McGrath make the transition smoother and sooner. That's not to say Burton won't, just that it'll take more time.

I can't see them wanting him to do it any time soon, I feel like a lot more is lost if they try to make him take the transition into the midfield too soon - you're removing a great 1v1 small defender with great ball skills from a key part of the field.

 

[Mr_Plow]

I can't see them wanting him to do it any time soon, I feel like a lot more is lost if they try to make him take the transition into the midfield too soon - you're removing a great 1v1 small defender with great ball skills from a key part of the field.

You don't spend #1 picks on small defenders.

They've got him playing a role currently, but not for long.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

I can't see them wanting him to do it any time soon, I feel like a lot more is lost if they try to make him take the transition into the midfield too soon - you're removing a great 1v1 small defender with great ball skills from a key part of the field.

well, they actually did do it, last weekend. McGrath played predominantly wing/mid and had 25 disposals at 76%, 19 effective, with 3 clearances. I can pretty much guarantee you he'll play from preseason next year on in the midfield.

You do have a point that he'll be a loss from the final line, but we'll gain so much more from him in the middle. I posted earlier that people who see him as a small defender or outside mid will be very surprised, as McGrath has a very solid frame, and lightning quick hands and decision-making, and with his elite pace he will end up being a line-breaking inside/outside mid who will just carve teams up. I don't want to compare him to GAJ or anything, but you know...

Anyone who has actually watched him play would have marvelled at how quick he is at his handballs, how clean he is, and how good his decision-making is. Rising Star or not I couldn't really care, I just can't wait to see him develop from next year on

 

[Procrastinator35]

Procrastinator, with every post you're just proving how little you know about the game. Do you play footy? Or just super-coach?

You're acting as if all 9 judges will give the 5 votes to Burton. I guarantee you they won't. It will be a lot closer than you think. I wouldn't be surprised if all of the 4 top chances receive 5 votes from someone, it's that close and they all have different strengths and weaknesses

LOL....

When you can't offer up any sound & reasonable arguments to the contrary then attack the man.

Feel free to argue on the merits of whom-ever it is you'd like to see win the award, or who you reckon deserves to win it.

But, please.....Save the adolescent ad hom for the Bay muchacho.

 

[Burtman]

I know most hawks supporters want to see burton in the midfield, and we really do need more midfielders but I just don't think he is the type of player that will flourish in the midfield. He's not a fight tooth and nail for the hardball kinda player and rarely do we see a purely outside midfielder these days. Still think he's a back/forward.

 

[HeHateMe]

I had my doubts over Charlie Curnow - at the start of the year I used to cringe when he got the ball, it looked like it took 3 seconds for him to process what he needed to do and seemed far too slow for the game at AFL level.

Then it just clicked and he hasn't looked back.

Pretty much this! I had the exact same assessment the few times i watched him start of year.
Now i feel stupid for ever doubting him.

 

[Iceman!]

whatever you think, I couldn't be bothered arguing the point with you, as you've shown you only cherry pick stats anyway.

But you are denigrating him, by saying he does "nice, little, safe 2 meter handballs". You clearly don't even watch him play. You and others feel some pathological need to talk down Burton's competitors to make him appear better in your eyes. Like I said, very sad.

I don't really care who wins, but the Hawthorn posturing around Burton makes me really want anyone but him to win. And that's not because I don't like Burton, I just laugh at the insecure chest beating

To be fair it isn't just one way though mate, lets not pretend other clubs supporters aren't just as guilty of this. People have tried to downplay Burton's performances by claiming he never has an opponent and just gets cheap sideways kicks off the half back line (which is bullshit).

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

After playing a role for an entire year I wouldn't expect a kid to thrive when he's thrown elsewhere. I can see McGrath making a more immediate impact in the midfield as he has less size to grow into, but whether McGrath has a higher ceiling or not I don't know.

Charlie Curnow has - he's spent considerable time in the midfield in the last 3 or 4 weeks. Most contested possessions in the game last week.