2019 ALL AUSTRALIAN TEAM

[Thewlis Dish]

Not the only player on our team that does that.

At the risk of promoting ridiculous biased views of my own team, here's a post from equiv_clearly from a podcast earlier this week:

Naitanui is the poster child for people looking purely at stats for rating a player's impact. It's the Rudy Gobert effect - for every shot he actually blocks, he probably impacts another ten offensive decisions.

The same people couldn't understand why Rioli made AA teams because he only averaged 13 touches and kicked 30 goals a season.

 

[WestCoast05]

You have given Geelong 6 spots on your AA team - if they really deserved that many you would hope they should be further ahead at the top of the ladder than 1 game, especially considering their softer (softER, not soft) draw than some other teams.

B T.Stewart(GEEL) M.Blivcas(GEEL) Brad Sheppard(WCE)

HB D.Rampe(SYD) H.Andrews(BL) S.Hurn(WCE)

C T.Kelly(GEEL) P.Cripps(CARL) L.Neale(BL)

HF T.Boak(PA) J.Cameron(GWS) P.Dangerfield(GEEL)

F M.Walters(FREM) T.Hawkins(GEEL) J.De Goey(COLL)

Foll: B.Grundy(COLL) N.Fyfe(FREM) B.Cunnington(NM)

Inter: M.Gawn(MELB), M.Bontempelli(WB), J.Macrae(WB), G.Ablett(GEEL)

Emerg: L.Shuey(WCE), S.Coniglio(GWS), B.Brown(NM), J.McGovern(WCE)

 

[marty36]

I'm pretty over this conversation now, but how can you possibly suggest a player that you have admitted that you don't watch is in front of or behind anyone? You have no frame of reference, other than statistics. I'm sure you must understand that these alone are not a valid way to assess players.

Most supporters know who is and isn't having a good year at their own club, Lairds stats can look good at Adelaide but he is having a bad year nowhere near AA

I wouldnt even try and say who the bulldogs best player is I would have no idea

 

[WestCoast05]

He's the best defender in the competition tbf. I can't think of another player who completely changes how the opposition play as much as he does.

Absolutely, when strategists are advocating not even bothering to kick into 50 but instead kick along the ground into 50 when playing West Coast then that is testament in itself.

To be fair though, he is also surrounded by a cohort of brilliant interceptors in Hurn, Barrass and Shepperd. McGov gets the plaudits though - and rightfully so.

 

[marty36]

You have given Geelong 6 spots on your AA team - if they really deserved that many you would hope they should be further ahead at the top of the ladder than 1 game, especially considering their softer (softER, not soft) draw than some other teams.

Adelaide have zero but in the eight, must have an all round brilliant team effort

 

[HurleyHepsHird]

McGovern is still the best KPD by metrics best 1v1 win %tage rate and is leading the comp in intercept marks again has a stupidly high standard

McGovern should definitely be in contention.

He leads on the metrics that matter, but isn't a hype selection so the media don't talk about him.

Teams change the way they play to try and neutralise him and he still dominates.

 

[Checkered]

I'm pretty over this conversation now, but how can you possibly suggest a player that you have admitted that you don't watch is in front of or behind anyone? You have no frame of reference, other than statistics. I'm sure you must understand that these alone are not a valid way to assess players.

Hahaha but you keep it going.

My frame of reference is that apart from 5 North posters on this thread, literally no one else has him in this conversation. No neutrals talking him up, no mentions in the media, no sightings in the coaches votes (although i could be wrong on that one). Reckon he'd have a bit more going for him if he really deserved to be up in the conversation. Just reads as wishful thinking in the meantime though.

 

[Engimal v3]

Hahaha but you keep it going.

My frame of reference is that apart from 5 North posters on this thread, literally no one else has him in this conversation. No neutrals talking him up, no mentions in the media, no sightings in the coaches votes (although i could be wrong on that one). Reckon he'd have a bit more going for him if he really deserved to be up in the conversation. Just reads as wishful thinking in the meantime though.

So your frame of reference is a BigFooty thread? Haha, I think we're done here. Go watch a game of footy, you might even enjoy it.

 

[frenchconnection]

I think Dusty is one of those media names that only really needs to have 6-8 big weeks to make the side.

This is the stupid thing though as too many players get selected on reputation only and not necessarily on form in the current year!

 

[Happy Mastenator]

That's fine, I don't think he makes the final team either but I do think he's been as good as any key defender this year and is ridiculously underrated.

This thread is surely for discussion though, and I'm interested in what specifically Tarrant is lacking in compared to others. All you've done there is reeled off the usual few names that the media are throwing up for AA and admitted you don't actually watch North games.

Tarrants ranking out of key defenders:
- 31st for contested marks;
- 21st for intercepts;
- 19th for intercept marks;
- 11th for defensive half pressure acts;
- 10th for score involvements;
- 32nd for spoils;
- 49th for contested defensive one on ones; and
- 31st for contested defensive loss %.

So basically he doesn’t zone off and intercept, but he also doesn’t have a lot of one on ones, and even when he does he isn’t great at actually winning them.

I’m sure watching a north game though would tell me the stats are lying and he’s actually awesome...

 

[frenchconnection]

I reckon Bont has been the best midfielder in the game this season.

Pretty hard to go past Lochie Neale - he's been Mr Consistent this year - would not be surprised if he takes out the Brownlow this year.

 

[frenchconnection]

Because you're too arrogant to see the forest for the trees, lol. People have provided you with plenty of arguments, you just choose to use Champion Data. A metric that rated Menegola as 'elite' while rating J. Selwood as 'above average',at the mid-way point of last year when Selwood was best on ground 5 times at the start of the year and Menegola was on the edge of our best 22.

The same arguments that are used for Bontempelli, can be applied to Kelly this year. Has been our best mid (and we're the side on top). Would be leading our B+F. Has been the difference in several games, where his class around stoppages and ability to extract, deliver and finish off goals has been what has separated us from the pack.

It's not just about 'scooping the ball up', it's about his evasiveness, and his ability to find space where there is none, to put his teammates into a better position. It's about the fact that he's not just rated by our coaches or players as one of the best in the comp right now, but also by opposition players and coaches (as evidenced by the fact that he's the first to cop a tag in a midfield containing Selwood, Dangerfield and Duncan - 3 elite players in their own right). The coaches votes on both sides, also affirm the aforementioned, as it means he's being viewed most weeks as one of the best players by both sides.

But I'm sure you'll just dismiss all of this, as clearly you know more than everyone else. Statistics don't measure everything mate. Cyril Rioli demonstrated that better than most.

!!

 

[Thewlis Dish]

Tarrants ranking out of key defenders:
- 31st for contested marks;
- 21st for intercepts;
- 19th for intercept marks;
- 11th for defensive half pressure acts;
- 10th for score involvements;
- 32nd for spoils;
- 49th for contested defensive one on ones; and
- 31st for contested defensive loss %.

So basically he doesn’t zone off and intercept, but he also doesn’t have a lot of one on ones, and even when he does he isn’t great at actually winning them.

I’m sure watching a north game though would tell me the stats are lying and he’s actually awesome...

Do you have the aggregate figures though? For example, he's ranked 19th for overall intercepts, but is only nine away from being top ten in that category. Five more contested marks would take him up 30 places in the rankings too (for all players, not just KPD). I'd wager if you're only filtering key defenders then he's probably not that far off in a number of those categories.

Plus, if teams actively look to use other team mates rather than his direct opponent, he's not going to get a stat for that, but it impacts the play. He's very, very good at pushing his opponents to spots where they are not likely to get the footy or be involved in a contest, which is a really underrated part of defending.

But yes, as cliche as it sounds, you need to watch him. He destroyed Lynch and Naughton for example, but didn't score that well in Champion Data ratings for either of those games.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

Do you have the aggregate figures though? For example, he's ranked 19th for overall intercepts, but is only nine away from being top ten in that category. Five more contested marks would take him up 30 places in the rankings too (for all players, not just KPD). I'd wager if you're only filtering key defenders then he's probably not that far off in a number of those categories.

Plus, if teams actively look to use other team mates rather than his direct opponent, he's not going to get a stat for that, but it impacts the play. He's very, very good at pushing his opponents to spots where they are not likely to get the footy or be involved in a contest, which is a really underrated part of defending.

But yes, as cliche as it sounds, you need to watch him. He destroyed Lynch and Naughton for example, but didn't score that well in Champion Data ratings for either of those games.

So if he had more he’d be higher ranked? Thanks mate, wasn’t sure how averages worked...

Didn’t once mention champion data.

 

[Thewlis Dish]

So if he had more he’d be higher ranked? Thanks mate, wasn’t sure how averages worked...

Didn’t once mention champion data.

My point was stats will only tell you so much, and don't cover everything that a defender does.

He is a lock for the 40 and probably won't make the 22.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

My point was stats will only tell you so much, and don't cover everything that a defender does.

He is a lock for the 40 and probably won't make the 22.

He’s far from a lock for the 40. Last year they had four key defenders in the 40, Harris, McGovern, rance, Blicavs.

Imagine three of those four are a real chance of the 40 again, then have a bunch trying to get into the forty. Tarrant among them. Would be surprised if he made it

 

[Checkered]

So your frame of reference is a BigFooty thread? Haha, I think we're done here. Go watch a game of footy, you might even enjoy it.

I enjoy watching good teams yes

 

[Engimal v3]

I enjoy watching good teams yes

You're quite passionate about Brisbane players you must be watching for the first time.

 

[Hard Ball Get]

What is this "kick rating" you speak of, and where can one refer to this measurement?

I think Shuey is rated appropriately, too. In the conversation with a group of others for a mid spot in the AA side.

Measures each kick against all others mking the same or similar kick. Takes into account player positioning, team mates and opponents positioning and kick difficulty.

The dogs have Daniel and JJ in the top 4. Hurn is also in the top 4. My mind escapes me for the 4th.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Measures each kick against all others mking the same or similar kick. Takes into account player positioning, team mates and opponents positioning and kick difficulty.

The dogs have Daniel and JJ in the top 4. Hurn is also in the top 4. My mind escapes me for the 4th.

It was mentioned the other day on one of the podcasts that Hurn is something like 3.5 standard deviations above the average for kicking

That's phenomenal.

 

[Damon_3388]

Naitanui is the poster child for people looking purely at stats for rating a player's impact. It's the Rudy Gobert effect - for every shot he actually blocks, he probably impacts another ten offensive decisions.

The same people couldn't understand why Rioli made AA teams because he only averaged 13 touches and kicked 30 goals a season.

The problem isn't that people judge Naitanui by stats, it's that they judge him by the wrong stats based on his role.

He's actually the most prolific and damaging player in the league, per minute, in his role, and particular stats clearly illustrate this.

 

[Damon_3388]

It's an aggregate measure created by Champion Data.

They sometimes release a table post season, but it usually pops up in an article on the AFL website and/or CD's twitter. The most recent mention was a couple of weeks ago in a podcast interview on AFL.com.au.

One of CDs chief data people said that till that point, Kelly had the worst kick rating for a midfielder for the season.

Measures each kick against all others mking the same or similar kick. Takes into account player positioning, team mates and opponents positioning and kick difficulty.

The dogs have Daniel and JJ in the top 4. Hurn is also in the top 4. My mind escapes me for the 4th.

Should we really be making blanket judgements on partial, drip-fed numbers, especially when they directly conflict with other areas (eg. Score involvements) that we have the complete data for?

 

[eaglespremiers]

The problem isn't that people judge Naitanui by stats, it's that they judge him by the wrong stats based on his role.

He's actually the most prolific and damaging player in the league, per minute, in his role, and particular stats clearly illustrate this.

There is a point of contention as to what the most important stats for a ruckman actually are.
I actually think the most important stats are the following:
1. HOs to advantage;
2. clearances;
3. contested marks;
4. goals;
5. contested possessions; and
6. tackles.

Things like total HOs and total marks are not particularly important IMO.

 

[Young Gun #6]

B: Rampe Andrews Sheppard
Hb: Stewart Blicavs Hurn
C: Macrae Boak, T Kelly
Hf: Dangerfield Cameron Bont
F: Walters Hawkins DeGoey
Foll: Grundy Fyfe Neale
Inter: Gawn Boak Coniglio Ablett

Just missed out:
B: Hurley, McGovern, Williams, Lloyd, Sicily
M: Cunnington, Kelly, Parker, Dunkley, Treloar, Shuey, Pendles
R: -
F: Heeney, Ziebell

 

[Hard Ball Get]

Should we really be making blanket judgements on partial, drip-fed numbers, especially when they directly conflict with other areas (eg. Score involvements) that we have the complete data for?

What?
This is data that clubs pay champion data for. The only reason the media dont use it, is because they dont pay for the access to it.