2020 AFL fixture released

[Underarm]

My opinion is the line of delineation is 1990.

By that stage the competition was rebranded and had positioned itself as a professionally run national competition with a sustainable economic model.

There's no right answer. Every person is going to inject their own biases into the question.

West Coast fans say 1990. That makes sense, they've been the 2nd most successful club since then.

Meanwhile Port Adelaide fans talk up their 34 Sanfl premierships, as that makes them feel relevant.

Hawthorn fans like to talk about Premierships since 1950, as they've been the most successful since then.

 

[Dirty Bird]

Honestly. The whole problem with Richmond/Collingwood getting 1 too many games at the MCG is Essendon. They should be playing at Marvel Stadium for Essendon games.

We shouldn't be blaming Richmond/Collingwood. We should be blaming Essendon.

 

[FreeTK]

There's no right answer. Every person is going to inject their own biases into the question.

West Coast fans say 1990. That makes sense, they've been the 2nd most successful club since then.

Meanwhile Port Adelaide fans talk up their 34 Sanfl premierships, as that makes them feel relevant.

Hawthorn fans like to talk about Premierships since 1950, as they've been the most successful since then.

Only one of those holds any relevance though.

For example what is the basis of only counting since 1950? AFAIK there is no significant difference between the competition in 1945 or 1950. As for Port, they do have 34 SANFL flags, and as a club, they should be recognised for that, but SANFL is a different competition.

There are a few elements I gave my reasons earlier why earlier Draft, Interstate travel, Salary cap. All those things are cornerstones of national competition and made the competition substantially different than before they were introduced.

That's not taking away Flags that were won in the VFL era, it's just saying that was a time with rules, regulations and conditions that were very different to current AFL era.

 

[Senor M]

Only one of those holds any relevance though.

For example what is the basis of only counting since 1950? AFAIK there is no significant difference between the competition in 1945 or 1950. As for Port, they do have 34 SANFL flags, and as a club, they should be recognised for that, but SANFL is a different competition.

There are a few elements I gave my reasons earlier why earlier Draft, Interstate travel, Salary cap. All those things are cornerstones of national competition and made the competition substantially different than before they were introduced.

That's not taking away Flags that were won in the VFL era, it's just saying that was a time with rules, regulations and conditions that were very different to current AFL era.

But the current AFL rules, regulations and conditions are very different in 2019 than 1990.

For starters there was only 14 teams.

Should we re-start the premiership count anytime a new club joins the competition or there's a significant rule change?

 

[Underarm]

Only one of those holds any relevance though.

For example what is the basis of only counting since 1950? AFAIK there is no significant difference between the competition in 1945 or 1950. As for Port, they do have 34 SANFL flags, and as a club, they should be recognised for that, but SANFL is a different competition.

There are a few elements I gave my reasons earlier why earlier Draft, Interstate travel, Salary cap. All those things are cornerstones of national competition and made the competition substantially different than before they were introduced.

That's not taking away Flags that were won in the VFL era, it's just saying that was a time with rules, regulations and conditions that were very different to current AFL era.

My point was club's fans will choose which ever date makes their club looks better.

There's nothing significant about the 1990 season, except the VFL changed their name to the AFL. All those other changes you mentioned were in the preceding years.

 

[Dirty Bird]

There's no right answer. Every person is going to inject their own biases into the question.

West Coast fans say 1990. That makes sense, they've been the 2nd most successful club since then.

Meanwhile Port Adelaide fans talk up their 34 Sanfl premierships, as that makes them feel relevant.

Hawthorn fans like to talk about Premierships since 1950, as they've been the most successful since then.

You look internationally.
America, NFL. When Philadelphia won the league in the 2017 season, you were hearing 'yay, 1st super bowl win' not 'woo, 4th nfl title' - They look at the difference between pre afl-nfl merger and post. THey distinguish between numerous eras.
England, EPL. Just a week ago. You hear Leicester had tied for the biggest Premier League victory winning 9-0. Completely ignoring the 12-0 scorelines from 1892 and 1909.

It feels like internationally people can see the differences in times and how a league has changed and they focus on eras.
But why cant Australians?
Whether it be Victorians going on about VFL premierships
Port Adelaide fans going on about SANFL premierships
New South Welshman going on about NSWRL premierships

When I try and think of Australian Rules FOotball
I view the AFL as the modern era. Yes, it is a continuation of the VFL. But compare 1980 to 1995. Draft, Salary Cap, Interstate teams. The league was completely different. Ignoring the salary cap cheating, Id rate the 1995 premiership alot higher than the 1980. In 1980 the VFL didnt have a monopoly of the best talent in Australia. It was still a state competition with some of the best interstate players playing, but not all. By 1995 it was where all the top players played. As much as I believe 1991 and Adelaide joining made it the league it is today. The only difference is 1 team joining and bringing in the last SANFL holdouts like Andrew Jarman. Even in 1987 SANFL clubs were beating VFL clubs. North Adelaide took down Melbourne and Collingwood that season.

When did the modern era begin?
The 2 best arguments I could come up with are 1987 (Salary cap was instituted) and 1991 (The final main football state introduced a team and made the AFL unquestionably the best (already was, but Im sure there were some south australians clutching at straws)). But from an outsiders view it'd look weird selecting those dates. So I would just go with 1990 as it was the name change. An ignorant person who doesnt support the league would see in name it went from a state league to a national league. Yes, theyre wrong as that was all that changed that year. But look at England again. Nothing changed when the EPL started besides a name change. But many go on as that being a new era.

 

[FreeTK]

But the current AFL rules, regulations and conditions are very different in 2019 than 1990.

For starters there was only 14 teams.

Should we re-start the premiership count anytime a new club joins the competition or there's a significant rule change?

Please see post from dirty bird.

You look internationally.
America, NFL. When Philadelphia won the league in the 2017 season, you were hearing 'yay, 1st super bowl win' not 'woo, 4th nfl title' - They look at the difference between pre afl-nfl merger and post. THey distinguish between numerous eras.
England, EPL. Just a week ago. You hear Leicester had tied for the biggest Premier League victory winning 9-0. Completely ignoring the 12-0 scorelines from 1892 and 1909.

It feels like internationally people can see the differences in times and how a league has changed and they focus on eras.
But why cant Australians?
Whether it be Victorians going on about VFL premierships
Port Adelaide fans going on about SANFL premierships
New South Welshman going on about NSWRL premierships

When I try and think of Australian Rules FOotball
I view the AFL as the modern era. Yes, it is a continuation of the VFL. But compare 1980 to 1995. Draft, Salary Cap, Interstate teams. The league was completely different. Ignoring the salary cap cheating, Id rate the 1995 premiership alot higher than the 1980. In 1980 the VFL didnt have a monopoly of the best talent in Australia. It was still a state competition with some of the best interstate players playing, but not all. By 1995 it was where all the top players played. As much as I believe 1991 and Adelaide joining made it the league it is today. The only difference is 1 team joining and bringing in the last SANFL holdouts like Andrew Jarman. Even in 1987 SANFL clubs were beating VFL clubs. North Adelaide took down Melbourne and Collingwood that season. If I had to pinpoint a time to go with for the modern era it is 1990.

 

[Forward Press]

But the current AFL rules, regulations and conditions are very different in 2019 than 1990.

For starters there was only 14 teams.

Should we re-start the premiership count anytime a new club joins the competition or there's a significant rule change?

Don't think anyone is advocating a re-start (seriously, anyway, probably just for banter reasons), just that a premiership won in 1916 is vastly different than one won in 2016 - let's not pretend they are all equal.

They all count as one in the record books in any event.

 

[Senor M]

Don't think anyone is advocating a re-start (seriously, anyway, probably just for banter reasons), just that a premiership won in 1916 is vastly different than one won in 2016 - let's not pretend they are all equal.

They all count as one in the record books in any event.

Are you sure--- FreeTK seems pretty intent on defining premierships from pre-1990 as different than those post-1990. Because that favours the history of his club.

 

[FreeTK]

Are you sure--- FreeTK seems pretty intent on defining premierships from pre-1990 as different than those post-1990. Because that favours the history of his club.

Richmond has 12 VFL/AFL flags. 10 won in VFL era and 2 in AFL era.

West Coast Eagles have 4 AFL flags

amiwrong?

 

[Senor M]

Richmond has VFL/AFL12 flags. 10 won in VFL era and 2 in AFL era.

West Coast Eagles have 4 AFL flags all in AFL era.

amiwrong?

Richmond has 12 flags.

Defining it into "eras" just because it suits your club doesn't mean they are valued any differently (as you were originally trying to indicate/use as an insult towards Richmond) . The AFL itself uses VFL/AFL to discuss ONE competition and one history. It's not two separate competitions.

 

[Dirty Bird]

Richmond has 12 flags.

Defining it into "eras" just because it suits your club doesn't mean they are valued any differently (as you were originally trying to indicate/use as an insult towards Richmond) . The AFL itself uses VFL/AFL to discuss ONE competition and one history. It's not two separate competitions.

Actually, Richmond has 14 flags.
But I guess you don't want to include 1902 and 1905 as you don't want to give Footscray an additional 9 premierships, Geelong an additional 7 and Essendon 4 more?

 

[FreeTK]

Richmond has 12 flags.

Defining it into "eras" just because it suits your club doesn't mean they are valued any differently (as you were originally trying to indicate/use as an insult towards Richmond) . The AFL itself uses VFL/AFL to discuss ONE competition and one history. It's not two separate competitions.

If I would like to make a distinction between VFL and AFL there is no reason why I can't do that. Premiership cups before 1990 literally say "VFL premier xxxx". They are definitely part of a the the history of the same competition. However that competition is vastly different now than what it was before expansion and making a distinction between the two eras feels right to me.

Value is a subjective term anyway. For instance if you have a competition like VFL where much of it's history there was no national draft or salary cap and clubs could effectively buy premierships, and the league was full of labourers and butcher's who were part time athletes. A person may reasonably not feel that they are of the same "value" as a flag won in an era with full time professional athletes playing in a national competition with equalisation measures, such as an AFL flag.

But like I said, value is subjective, so each to their own.

 

[Senor M]

If I would like to make a distinction between VFL and AFL there is no reason why I can't do that. Premiership cups before 1990 literally say "VFL premier xxxx". They are definitely part of a the the history of the same competition. However that competition is vastly different now than what it was before expansion and making a distinction between the two eras feels right to me.

Value is a subjective term anyway. For instance if you have a competition like VFL where much of it's history there was no national draft or salary cap and clubs could effectively buy premierships, and the league was full of labourers and butcher's who were part time athletes. A person may reasonably not feel that they are of the same "value" as a flag won in an era with full time professional athletes playing in a national competition with equalisation measures, such as an AFL flag.

But like I said, value is subjective, so each to their own.

I don't know how facts and history have now become subjective and based off your own opinion and judgement?

But I'm going to let you have this one--because you obviously care that much about it; despite your opinion being completely opposite to the way the AFL itself describes them.

 

[Farang83150]

If the AFL changed its name in 2021, would you still count the eagles as having 4 premierships. ?

Would it still be a national competition?

 

[Obeanie1]

Richmond have definitely played in both Geelong & Tasmania since 1920.

But keep melting-- it's entertaining how pathetic the West Coast Whingers supporters have become.

We arent melting dude. Far from it.

We are simply pointing out the significant benefits some teams get from being the 'teachers pet' the teacher being the AFL.

You can call it what you like. We get it. Its an uncomfortable truth that takes the shine off some achievements.

 

[Tiger Toffee]

Would it still be a national competition?

Nothing changes other than the name, so maybe you can answer it. How many flags would you see the eagles as having ?

 

[Senor M]

We arent melting dude. Far from it.

We are simply pointing out the significant benefits some teams get from being the 'teachers pet' the teacher being the AFL.

You can call it what you like. We get it. Its an uncomfortable truth that takes the shine off some achievements.

Wha??

What are you rambling on about now??

 

[Underarm]

You look internationally.
America, NFL. When Philadelphia won the league in the 2017 season, you were hearing 'yay, 1st super bowl win' not 'woo, 4th nfl title' - They look at the difference between pre afl-nfl merger and post. THey distinguish between numerous eras.
England, EPL. Just a week ago. You hear Leicester had tied for the biggest Premier League victory winning 9-0. Completely ignoring the 12-0 scorelines from 1892 and 1909.

AFL And NFL merged. The AFL was set up because the NFL owners didn't want to expand.

The English football clubs in the top division all resigned and created their new competition (the EPL) over dispute about (among other things) money.

Both of those were huge changes to the competitions that they played in. The NFL gained 10 franchises in 1970. The EPL was newly created with 22 football clubs.

To compare that to the argument FreeTK is trying to make which is "in 1990 the VFL changed its name to AFL" is pretty silly.

 

[FreeTK]

AFL And NFL merged. The AFL was set up because the NFL owners didn't want to expand.

The English football clubs in the top division all resigned and created their new competition (the EPL) over dispute about (among other things) money.

Both of those were huge changes to the competitions that they played in. The NFL gained 10 franchises in 1970. The EPL was newly created with 22 football clubs.

To compare that to the argument FreeTK is trying to make which is "in 1990 the VFL changed its name to AFL" is pretty silly.

This whole thing started because I mentioned that Richmond had not had to travel to either Geelong or Tasmania since they won their first AFL flag (2017). It was really just a simple statement of fact.

When Richmond won the 1980 premiership, the AFL didn't even exist yet.

 

[hawkman]

There's no right answer. Every person is going to inject their own biases into the question.

West Coast fans say 1990. That makes sense, they've been the 2nd most successful club since then.

Meanwhile Port Adelaide fans talk up their 34 Sanfl premierships, as that makes them feel relevant.

Hawthorn fans like to talk about Premierships since 1950, as they've been the most successful since then.

We will take whatever anyone wants to count it from. 82, 87, 90, 91, 97, 11 or 12 will do!

 

[Stax on the mill]

It’s usually Pies and Tigers posters going at it hammer and tongs in every thread in d..k measuring contests. Makes for a pleasant change to be able to sit back and watch Tigers and Eagles fans rip into each other.

 

[Farang83150]

Nothing changes other than the name, so maybe you can answer it. How many flags would you see the eagles as having ?

If it was truly national or even slightly national as it is now (you know, as in not the vfl), then it'd be fair to carry the cups won over.

 

[Ron The Bear]

Im a born and bred Territorian, never lived in WA.

So I consider myself in the middle and reasonably neutral thanks very much.

You Vics have never gotten over the cup being taken out of Victoria and the fat cats at V/AFL House have been pandering to the big Vic clubs ever since.

Even Richmond since you mob finally got your poo together and became relevant again after spending decades fluffing around and eating your own.

You're a long way away so can be forgiven for having no idea. I barracked for West Coast in every GF they've played in. Perhaps even every final. The paranoia exhibited by many of you lately is unbecoming.

 

[FreeTK]

Nothing changes other than the name, so maybe you can answer it. How many flags would you see the eagles as having ?

If nothing changes other than the name, that is not a comparable situation.

That would be a different scenario than what happened in the 1980's with the introduction of the draft (1986) and salary cap (1987), and national expansion culminating in the change to a national competition in 1990. So the two scenarios aren't really comparable.

To answer your question, if the AFL changed it's name, West Coast would have 4 AFL flags.