2021 NON AFL Thread - finance, ratings, participation etc.

[Kwality]

Just one quick look at the URL has ensured I will never click on the link.

Such is the price of bog ignorance & you are proud of it.

 

[manicmagpie]

Such is the price of bog ignorance & you are proud of it.

If you don't read an article in The Australian banging on about 'wokeness' or the ABC you can just wait 5 minutes and they'll publish another dozen. Not that they're obsessed or anything.

 

[NoobPie]

If you don't read an article in The Australian banging on about 'wokeness' or the ABC you can just wait 5 minutes and they'll publish another dozen. Not that they're obsessed or anything.

Apparently not gulping down propaganda makes one "bog ignorant" these days

 

[weewilly]

I wouldn't wipe by bum on any of the Murdoch gutter rags esp the Australian!

 

[The_Wookie]

Nobody said it should though. You're the one who said they "should" be framed in an NRL context after Weewilly used a different frame.

You said they shouldnt be. i disagree. Are you not familiar with how forums work?

So what? You are the one trying to assert that a particular frame is the only one that should be used.

Didnt say that at all. Im trying to assert that they should be done in a certain way, i didnt say it was the only way. Just to add a proper context.

Enormous energy from people with "very subjective reasons" goes into deriding the Giants' impact. The fact by most measures they are nose to nose despite the Giants being the second club in Sydney, have had markedly less success and are only half as old, are very "interesting facts" in that context

Not particularly relevant in a conversation about the Storm, but sure.

Sure, when being compared to other NRL clubs they should be compared with NRL clubs.

they should be judged as successful according to their sporting peers. AFL clubs are not the only measure of success and people on bigfooty and in this thread in particular should understand that more. The AFL way is not the only way, and not nececssarily even the right way.

The comparisons were with the smallest Melbourne AFL clubs and the two Sydney AFL clubs

I do not have to agree with the comparison - and i think such apples with oranges comparisons are bullshit.

And the fact it is it is a Melbourne phenomena as much as it is an AFL phenomena - also evidenced by Melbourne Victory. People are very accustomed to purchasing memberships in Melbourne.

And Victorys memberships and attendance are at about the same level as the Storms. Im not sure this provides the evidence you think it does.

Victory
2019 Attendance Ave- 17,366
2019 Members - 23,633

Storm
2019 attendance Ave - 16,792
2019 Members - 25,208

So what?

The fact you say this is kind of telling, but not surprising given your approach to any conversation like this.

Not sure you know what irony is.

i dont particularly care what you think i know.

The fact that Victorian rugby league participation - which is very very low as it is - is dominated by Pacific Islanders in Melbourne is a strong bit of evidence that the Storm have had little impact on people taking up the game here.

People play the game, it doesnt matter if they come from Fiji or Burkina Faso. If they live in Victoria and choose league over AFL or Union then that still counts.

Considering the amount of money and promotion the AFL has spent in NSW and Queensland since the 90s, not to mention the likes of Capper and Lockett to promote the game, AND a decent pre existing SydneyAFL - compared to the NRL spending nothing in Victoria, and the VRL being little more than a joke - Id say that they are doing about as well as can be expected.

They have crowds and memberships that are good compared to Sydney NRL clubs and poor compared to AFL clubs after an absurdly unique first two decades of success

They have crowds and memberships that are good compared to any NRL club, not just the Sydney ones. Its a pity we dont see revenue data from Storm memberships, because Id bet considerable dollars that they make more than some of the smaller Victorian clubs and a crap load more than the Giants.

 

[NoobPie]

You said they shouldnt be. i disagree. Are you not familiar with how forums work?



Didnt say that at all. Im trying to assert that they should be done in a certain way, i didnt say it was the only way. Just to add a proper context.



Not particularly relevant in a conversation about the Storm, but sure.



they should be judged as successful according to their sporting peers. AFL clubs are not the only measure of success and people on bigfooty and in this thread in particular should understand that more. The AFL way is not the only way, and not nececssarily even the right way.

You were directly responding to a post comparing the Storm to AFL clubs, including quite explicitly the Giants.

Also, I keep forgetting by the way you carry on you are an amateur analyst and so not understanding that the word "should" is by definition trying to make an objective claim can be excused on account of your amateurism

Apologies for giving you too much credit.

I do not have to agree with the comparison - and i think such apples with oranges comparisons are bullshit.



And Victorys memberships and attendance are at about the same level as the Storms. Im not sure this provides the evidence you think it does.

Victory
2019 Attendance Ave- 17,366
2019 Members - 23,633

Storm
2019 attendance Ave - 16,792
2019 Members - 25,208

I know exactly what evidence it provides.

Victory have much larger memberships than other A League clubs - this provides further evidence of a culture in Melbourne of membership purchase.


Remember, you're apparently self aware that you're an amateur analyst who doesn't carry on like they are a professional. You said this. Just p

The fact you say this is kind of telling, but not surprising given your approach to any conversation like this.

Nah, it was because it was completely irrelevant to what we were debating.

i dont particularly care what you think i know.

Nah, you do. You wouldn't bother writing that otherwise

People play the game, it doesnt matter if they come from Fiji or Burkina Faso. If they live in Victoria and choose league over AFL or Union then that still counts.

What is relevant to the question of "how successfully have the Storm been in establishing itself in Melbourne?", is the fact that from the very low participation numbers it appears that a large number (at least the try scorers) are from a small ethnic category for whom rugby football is a near religion.

The more kids from rugby football backgrounds in those small participation numbers = less kids enticed to play league from non rugby football backgrounds

This is axiomatically true.

To say they still count is meaningless. Count to what?

Considering the amount of money and promotion the AFL has spent in NSW and Queensland since the 90s, not to mention the likes of Capper and Lockett to promote the game, AND a decent pre existing SydneyAFL - compared to the NRL spending nothing in Victoria, and the VRL being little more than a joke - Id say that they are doing about as well as can be expected.



They have crowds and memberships that are good compared to any NRL club, not just the Sydney ones. Its a pity we dont see revenue data from Storm memberships, because Id bet considerable dollars that they make more than some of the smaller Victorian clubs and a crap load more than the Giants.

And unlike most of that, this is actually an objectively true statement....

They have crowds and memberships that are good compared to Sydney NRL clubs and poor compared to AFL clubs after an absurdly unique first two decades of success

Anyway, the trolls are lapping up your responses to me. Go figure!

 

[The_Wookie]

You were directly responding to a post comparing the Storm to AFL clubs, including quite explicitly the Giants.

I did notice that you glossed over the part where i specifically addressed the membership numbers of AFL clubs being bullshit. Especially at the Giants where the average revenue per member is about $50....less than the cost of a 3 game membership.

GWS 30,185 @ 1,669,591 == 55 per person. (its actually less, because the $ figure includes merchandise sales)

Also, I keep forgetting by the way you carry on you are an amateur analyst and so not understanding that the word "should" is by definition trying to make an objective claim can be excused on account of your amateurism

And I keep forgetting that you turned into a grammar nazi.

Apologies for giving you too much credit.

lol

I know exactly what evidence it provides.
Victory have much larger memberships than other A League clubs - this provides further evidence of a culture in Melbourne of membership purchase.

You cant hold Victory up as some rigtheous bastion of membership purchases and then mock the Storm - who have more members than the Victory do. I mean obviously you can, but it doesnt make any particular sense,

Remember, you're apparently self aware that you're an amateur analyst who doesn't carry on like they are a professional. You said this. Just p

I remember this is a forum, not a thesis. Professionalism is neither expected or required of posters on this forum.

Nah, it was because it was completely irrelevant to what we were debating.

sure. whatever you say.

Nah, you do. You wouldn't bother writing that otherwise

yes, because thats how it works right?

What is relevant to the question of "how successfully have the Storm been in establishing itself in Melbourne?", is the fact that from the very low participation numbers it appears that a large number (at least the try scorers) are from a small ethnic category for whom rugby football is a near religion.

Who still live in Victoria. And thus count as participants. They dont count any less because they happen to like the damn sport.

To say they still count is meaningless. Count to what?

Its not meaningless at all. Wherever they are from, they still matter in a participation sense. You seem to think otherwise.

We get that you have it in for the Islanders in the NRL. You seem to be obsessed with their participation at junior levels for some reason.

Anyway, the trolls are lapping up your responses to me. Go figure!

Really

Your posting style invites it. You'd do well to remember that i create these non AFL threads specifically to talk about other sports, and not just so you can express your chosen viewpoint and accuse people you dont agree with of trolling. The AFL isnt always right, and isnt always the best. You dont have to be a professional analyst to have an opinion. You can follow another sport, you can even favour another sport over AFL. This thread is for the bigger picture.

 

[NoobPie]

I did notice that you glossed over the part where i specifically addressed the membership numbers of AFL clubs being bullshit. Especially at the Giants where the average revenue per member is about $50....less than the cost of a 3 game membership.

GWS 30,185 @ 1,669,591 == 55 per person. (its actually less, because the $ figure includes merchandise sales)

I didn't gloss over anything. I didn't respond to a range of assertions you made that you have no expertise to make. You lack both the knowledge and skill to make definitive statements when relating financial statements to member numbers.

The AFL actually audits membership numbers against a publicly communicated standard. Don't know if the NRL do but the Storm certainly no access and even 2 game memberships

You have simply no basis to claim the AFL numbers are dodgier than the NRL.

And I keep forgetting that you turned into a grammar nazi.

lol

Shock horror, you don't even know what grammar is.

Like I said, someone with any analytical training would only use "should" when implying something is categorically true.

I gave you too much credit.

You cant hold Victory up as some rigtheous bastion of membership purchases and then mock the Storm - who have more members than the Victory do. I mean obviously you can, but it doesnt make any particular sense,

Which I didn't. I held them up as evidence that membership purchasing culture is a Melbourne thing as much as it is an AFL thing

I remember this is a forum, not a thesis. Professionalism is neither expected or required of posters on this forum.

No but I recently claimed you behave in a way that implies that you have some professional level of analytical competency. You assured me you didn't....but you very much do.

sure. whatever you say.

yes, because thats how it works right?

Yeah actually. The fact that you resort so often to some variation of "I don't care what you think" is a sure sign you very much do.

Who still live in Victoria. And thus count as participants. They dont count any less because they happen to like the damn sport.



Its not meaningless at all. Wherever they are from, they still matter in a participation sense. You seem to think otherwise.

No, it is that you cannot follow the basic logic of my argument. It is really basic, but you are unable to do it.

And remember, you have no idea, and lack the capability to formulate an understanding, about how I think.

If you were aware how limited you were you would not be assuming my logic was wrong. You would be assuming you have just not been able to grasp it yet.

We get that you have it in for the Islanders in the NRL. You seem to be obsessed with their participation at junior levels for some reason.

Either you are confusing me with someone else and/or you are outdoing yourself in terms of pettiness

I don't "have it in for Islanders in the NRL". Others have posted a lot about the impact on junior participation which I haven't as far as I can remember. I have pointed out a couple of times, generally in response to others claiming the AFL is not diverse, that drawing 50% of your professional players from 1% of the population is not an indication of diversity

So I have never made in general statement about Islander numbers not counting - of course they do.

Anyway, anyone who would take such a petty cheap shot better not be about to lecture me about what my "posting style" invites....

Really

Your posting style invites it. You'd do well to remember that i create these non AFL threads specifically to talk about other sports, and not just so you can express your chosen viewpoint and accuse people you dont agree with of trolling. The AFL isnt always right, and isnt always the best. You dont have to be a professional analyst to have an opinion. You can follow another sport, you can even favour another sport over AFL. This thread is for the bigger picture.

Pfft, I just identified that two known trolls are liking your responses to me.

I am very happy to engage with others who have different sporting preferences than me. I just think people who don't particularly like a sport at best who spend a decade hanging around its main forum getting offended because people are biased towards it are particularly weird people.

 

[weewilly]

The Storm with their continued success ever since they started have not captured the Melbourne Sporting public at all and the crowd numbers at AAMI Park haven't changed that much for years prove that!
So as far as I'm concerned they obviously haven't been the suçcess in Melbourne/Victoria that they should be and the NRL would have expected!
It will be very interesting to see how they go if they ever drop down the list for a few seasons!

 

[The_Wookie]

I didn't gloss over anything. I didn't respond to a range of assertions you made that you have no expertise to make. You lack both the knowledge and skill to make definitive statements when relating financial statements to member numbers.

It is interesting that you did pick the very last part of a post and ignored the rest like I didnt address the issue at hand.

In this case, I very much have the knowledge and the skill.

Where GWS members are concerned the facts are public knowledge. The maths is fairly simple and you not liking them is irrelevant.

The AFL actually audits membership numbers against a publicly communicated standard. Don't know if the NRL do but the Storm certainly no access and even 2 game memberships

That standard changed in the last 2 seasons. The AFL numbers literally include everything the clubs send them. There is no longer an audit process.




This was also confirmed by Michelangelo Rucci.

You have simply no basis to claim the AFL numbers are dodgier than the NRL.

I think they are as dodgy. Not dodgier. And Im fair from alone in believing AFL numbers are dodgy.

a wide range of things that i dont have the time or energy to respond to any more

Im not doing this running battle thing any more. You have an issue with me or my posts or my qualifications going forward, take it to another mod or continue in PM.

 

[BobbyMorri]

Letter to Storm members

Soon...

www.melbournestorm.com.au

That’s why next year, we are pleased to announce your membership is on us – your club, Melbourne Storm.

In recognition of the commitment and support you have given us over these last two years, we wanted to give something back to you.

All 2020 and 2021 members who live in Victoria and who had match access as part of the membership, will get their 2022 membership free.

On behalf of the Melbourne Storm board, executive, staff, and players, this is our way of saying, thanks – this one’s on u

not a bad move by the Storm. Good PR

 

[NoobPie]

Letter to Storm members

Soon...

www.melbournestorm.com.au

not a bad move by the Storm. Good PR

Only really open to a private firm. The taxpayer effectively subsidises whatever losses the owners make.

Community clubs like AFL clubs probably couldn't go down this "PR" path, alas

 

[The_Wookie]

You don't have to engage with me but I am of course free to respond to your posts I am pretty sure.

You can - within reason.

You are not free to continue attacking any poster on a personal level. And as I already said take any issues you have on this to a mod or PM.

 

[The_Wookie]

 

[BobbyMorri]

Western Melbourne Group (WMG), the parent company of Western United FC, is delighted to invite you to save the date for an important milestone in the progress of Wyndham City Stadium and its surrounding precinct.

In the week commencing 25 October 2021, early works on the site at Leakes Road, Tarneit (600m west of the Leakes Rd and Sewells Rd intersection) will commence.

The early works will commence with building of the site’s haul road to create access to the stadium site for construction vehicles, as well as upgrades to Leakes Road and construction of the interim Ison Road.

The early works can proceed while the stadium and the surrounding precinct’s Concept Master Plan – which was submitted to the state government in July – is being approved.

hey, it's progress. soon, there will be a road to the middle of nowhere.

 

[Gigantor]

About to build the haul road, only three years after the bid with a shovel-ready stadium was accepted.

 

[Rob]

So this announcement is simply the upgrading of a road?

 

[BobbyMorri]

So this announcement is simply the upgrading of a road?

yes. Not bad for 3 years of work. Especially when they said they are playing out of the said stadium by their 3rd season. TBH, any progress on this is very surprising and welcome for the club. While we are on Western United

Western United adds Lakeside Stadium to its home ground roster

Western United has added Lakeside Stadium, Albert Park to the 2021/22 home ground roster alongside Ballarat, Geelong, and Launceston. In a pivotal move for United, seven home matches will be played at Lakeside Stadium, which was selected after a rigorous search for the best solution. The search...

www.wufc.com.au

Western United has added Lakeside Stadium, Albert Park to the 2021/22 home ground roster alongside Ballarat, Geelong, and Launceston.

In a pivotal move for United, seven home matches will be played at Lakeside Stadium, which was selected after a rigorous search for the best solution.
(it continues)

A roster of home grounds. not sure any other team has a roster of home stadiums to play from. They have more home grounds than years in the comp.

 

[BobbyMorri]

yes. Not bad for 3 years of work. Especially when they said they are playing out of the said stadium by their 3rd season. TBH, any progress on this is very surprising and welcome for the club. While we are on Western United

Western United adds Lakeside Stadium to its home ground roster

Western United has added Lakeside Stadium, Albert Park to the 2021/22 home ground roster alongside Ballarat, Geelong, and Launceston. In a pivotal move for United, seven home matches will be played at Lakeside Stadium, which was selected after a rigorous search for the best solution. The search...

www.wufc.com.au

A roster of home grounds. not sure any other team has a roster of home stadiums to play from. They have more home grounds than years in the comp.

or not...

South Melbourne rejects the plans of Western United FC to use Lakeside Stadium

We will be exercising all rights to prevent Western United FC from playing A-League matches at Lakeside Stadium.

www.smfc.com.au

 

[Rob]

flipping lol....if that is to be believed, the A-League has just scheduled fixtures at a ground that neither the league or Western United have any agreement to play at.

Ordinary that may not necessarily be a problem if an agreement is imminent, but you'd think the major tenant of the ground would have at least been involved to date. Reading that media release it implies that South Melbourne had no idea.

 

[NoobPie]

f*n lol....if that is to be believed, the A-League has just scheduled fixtures at a ground that neither the league or Western United have any agreement to play at.

Ordinary that may not necessarily be a problem if an agreement is imminent, but you'd think the major tenant of the ground would have at least been involved to date. Reading that media release it implies that South Melbourne had no idea.

My god, what an absurd farce. The day after a press release for a haul road being built

You got give credit where it's due. This developer behind what is a fake façade of a plastic franchise, with next to no fans, is somehow managing to keep so many New Dawners on the hook!

Imagine being a Hellas fan?

 

[NoobPie]

My god, what an absurd farce. The day after a press release for a haul road being built

You got give credit where it's due. This developer behind what is a fake façade of a plastic franchise, with next to no fans, is somehow managing to keep so many New Dawners on the hook!

Imagine being a Hellas fan?

Wowee this will be worth a watch

A League of Their Own

For decades Australian soccer has operated in the shadow of the other major sporting codes. Despite its immense popularity as a community sport, it's struggled to attract the eyeballs, sponsorship, and the profile of the AFL and the NRL. Almost half of Australia's premier soccer clubs are owned...

www.abc.net.au

Again, credit where it's due. There is so much shadiness backing the aleague franchises and yet they have managed to con this slither of the woke middle-class into thinking the a league is some progressive mission. Foreign kleptocrats and opportunist land developers having their bidding done for them by people who think this farce is a cultural improvement. Smart

 

[Kwality]

You lack both the knowledge and skill to make definitive statements when relating financial statements to member numbers.

Precisely what skill do you have to sit in judgement on 'the knowledge and skill to make definitive statements when relating financial statements to member numbers' that the OP does not?

 

[NoobPie]

Precisely what skill do you have to sit in judgement on 'the knowledge and skill to make definitive statements when relating financial statements to member numbers' that the OP does not?

I have sufficient knowledge to know that you cannot make definitive statements about "average revenue per member" based on the information available in a financial statement.

My skills and experience comfortably exceed the necessary level to have confidence in that statement. Any competent analyst, who is aware of when they are making assumptions and the implications of those assumptions, would arrive at that understanding

 

[Prince Imperial]

Wowee this will be worth a watch

A League of Their Own

For decades Australian soccer has operated in the shadow of the other major sporting codes. Despite its immense popularity as a community sport, it's struggled to attract the eyeballs, sponsorship, and the profile of the AFL and the NRL. Almost half of Australia's premier soccer clubs are owned...

www.abc.net.au

Again, credit where it's due. There is so much shadiness backing the aleague franchises and yet they have managed to con this slither of the woke middle-class into thinking the a league is some progressive mission. Foreign kleptocrats and opportunist land developers having their bidding done for them by people who think this farce is a cultural improvement. Smart

I quite like Richard Hinds, follow him on Twitter and think he often says funny things but he is the epitome of what you are talking about. He often repeats soccer victimhood mantras whilst supporting City because they are not the big bad Victory and promoting the cosmopolitan soccer vs insular AFL nonsense of soccer fans and commentators.

City are of course 78% owned by an extremely wealthy monarchial UAE dictatorship that has an appalling human rights record with a further 12% ownership by two Chinese state companies. The CCP's dictatorship and appalling human rights record including the mass herding of Muslims into detention camps is well-known.

United Arab Emirates: Freedom in the World 2021 Country Report | Freedom House

See the Freedom in the World 2021 score and learn about democracy and freedom in United Arab Emirates.

freedomhouse.org

China: Freedom in the World 2021 Country Report | Freedom House

See the Freedom in the World 2021 score and learn about democracy and freedom in China.

freedomhouse.org

He and others are simply deluding themselves for not seeing they are merely useful idiots for the soft power strategies of these dictatorships.