Discussion 2022 General AFL Discussion

[gringo2011]

There may have been a little bit of talk about walking away but the sentiment from a majority of people was that Hill had qualities that we needed and we needed to bring good players into the club. I think it's unfair to hold them to account for that. If we had walked away and kept Acres the same folk would be criticising the club for sitting on their hands.

No one notices when nothing changes, they made this a huge public stunt. It was exactly what we would have expected from the type of player that he was and is.
No one makes us do dumb things, making mistakes and not turning back to save face is really grabbing the trash at the bottom of the excuse pile.

 

[Sun Ra]

Finally, the truth comes out. Feeling for Wayne right now.

Carey, the pro he is, will just ride this incident out .....

 

[George]

No one notices when nothing changes, they made this a huge public stunt. It was exactly what we would have expected from the type of player that he was and is.
No one makes us do dumb things, making mistakes and not turning back to save face is really grabbing the trash at the bottom of the excuse pile.

At the time the majority view was that it was a good deal and improved the list. Everything else is revisionism IMO. Your view of Acres at the time of the trade wasn't that it was a swap with Hill, it was that Acres was loose change. Says to me that you also thought the list improved with that deal. We overpaid but that's what generally happens when bringing in quality players and at the time he was quality. And he still is a decent player, he's just regressed over the last couple of years.

 

[St Neil]

100%, sick of toppng up. We need a core group of young guys coming through together, IMO will create a sustainable culture.

This!

Happy to recruit free agents without needing to trade for them, but we just need to keep drafting. Bringing in young talent and developing them much better than we have been.

 

[gringo2011]

Apparently Gags hasn't improved the list since 2018 but now we're in the challenge cycle

We have built to challenge now I think you know that the age of the list and the core of the side has been built to challenge now. The president keeps reminding us. I think they'd be crazy to build up and not have on last crack next year before going for a rebuild.

At the time the majority view was that it was a good deal and improved the list. Everything else is revisionism IMO. Your view of Acres at the time of the trade wasn't that it was a swap with Hill, it was that Acres was loose change. Says to me that you also thought the list improved with that deal. We overpaid but that's what generally happens when bringing in quality players and at the time he was quality. And he still is a decent player, he's just regressed over the last couple of years.

It's not revisionism if we said it at the time. This is one of those things that gets thrown around at any criticism. It was too much then and only made worse by him not even being used to his potential or meeting it.

 

[St Neil]

Cameron one of the last experienced men standing as Lyon, Scott decline Dons invite

Leon Cameron has emerged as one of the last remaining candidates with senior coaching experience who is considering coaching Essendon, after Ross Lyon and Brad Scott declined to be part of the process.

www.theage.com.au

James Hird firming as the Dons "messiah"

Lyon is a smart man. On Footy Classified a few weeks ago he was openly contemptuous of Essendon at the way they had treated Rutten. It was obvious then that he was never going to coach that club.

At the risk of angering my fellow posters, I’m warming to the prospect of Lyon coming home to the Saints again. I know he left us in acrimonious circumstances a decade ago, but I felt he had us playing the sustainable brand of football that wins Premierships.

He created buy-in. He created self-belief. He had other clubs respecting and fearing us. He did the same with Fremantle as well. Tactics have evolved but those core principles will always remain. Look at Collingwood this year.

Recently Lyon was the one person on Footy Classified who was bullish about our prospects (in response reasonable comments from Matthew Lloyd). And on 6th April on Footy Classified Lyon openly admitted that he is a Saints main deep down. He has genuine passion for the club.

I know others will fervently disagree with me. But I would seriously look at him if he has the fire in the belly. And I think he would have it with us.

 

[George]

We have built to challenge now I think you know that the age of the list and the core of the side has been built to challenge now. The president keeps reminding us. I think they'd be crazy to build up and not have on last crack next year before going for a rebuild.

It's not revisionism if we said it at the time. This is one of those things that gets thrown around at any criticism. It was too much then and only made worse by him not even being used to his potential or meeting it.

You didn't say it at the time, I've gone back and had a look and couldn't find anything, and the majority view was we had improved the list so saying it's a bad deal 3 years or whatever after the fact just because it didn't turn out to how we would've hoped is revisionism.

Gags has helped build a list that you say is built to challenge now but then you also say he should be sacked. That doesn't make much sense. If we're not in a rebuilding phase why should he focus on rebuilding it. If the aim is to challenge then he has done that according to you. It's up to the coaches to get the most out of the list you say is built to challenge.

 

[gringo2011]

Lyon is a smart man. On Footy Classified a few weeks ago he was openly contemptuous of Essendon at the way they had treated Rutten. It was obvious then that he was never going to coach that club.

At the risk of angering my fellow posters, I’m warming to the prospect of Lyon coming home to the Saints again. I know he left us in acrimonious circumstances a decade ago, but I felt he had us playing the sustainable brand of football that wins Premierships.

He created buy-in. He created self-belief. He had other clubs respecting and fearing us. He did the same with Fremantle as well. Tactics have evolved but those core principles will always remain. Look at Collingwood this year.

Recently Lyon was the one person on Footy Classified who was bullish about our prospects (in response reasonable comments from Matthew Lloyd). And on 6th April on Footy Classified Lyon openly admitted that he is a Saints main deep down. He has genuine passion for the club.

I know others will fervently disagree with me. But I would seriously look at him if he has the fire in the belly. And I think he would have it with us.

He'd be ideal as Ratts' minder IMO. He probably doesn't want the full lead role any more but would be a great sounding board like Choco, Balme etc. He says what he thinks and would prosecute his reasons with some gravitas. It would be an ideal set up if we can get another younger forwards coach in at the same time.

 

[St Neil]

He'd be ideal as Ratts' minder IMO. He probably doesn't want the full lead role any more but would be a great sounding board like Choco, Balme etc. He says what he thinks and would prosecute his reasons with some gravitas. It would be an ideal set up if we can get another younger forwards coach in at the same time.

I think he would have to be the main man Gringo. Realistically I think Lyon’s presence would be a source of instability for Ratten. Media speculation and all that.

He would be ideal as a sounding board for Ratten. Better yet as the senior coach.

If Noble was also Football Manager we would have a very powerful and forceful football department. I’d expect there would be some tightening up of team discipline and buy-in. And standards might also improve.

 

[Yawkey way]

At the time the majority view was that it was a good deal and improved the list. Everything else is revisionism IMO. Your view of Acres at the time of the trade wasn't that it was a swap with Hill, it was that Acres was loose change. Says to me that you also thought the list improved with that deal. We overpaid but that's what generally happens when bringing in quality players and at the time he was quality. And he still is a decent player, he's just regressed over the last couple of years.

Nah I remember having a fit about it and I wasn’t alone. There were quite a few who were very excited though. The main argument against him was how outside he was, need and of course cost. I couldn't believe what we gave up and still can‘t, crazy then and still crazy now. The brad hill will throw us into the path of other quality players sounds like mrs Bennett from pride and prejudice and about as convincing, made us look weak and desperate.

Anyway as per usual the phones will be ringing hot with old crocs looking for a pay day and other clubs making mates rates offers for our better players. I hope the revue quarantines our first 3 picks for the next 2 years without board approval. Just to add to this I’m still coming to terms with ratten getting two years mid season starring down a tough run home.

 

[Yawkey way]

George you know it’s true.

 

[George]

Nah I remember having a fit about it and I wasn’t alone. There were quite a few who were very excited though. The main argument against him was how outside he was, need and of course cost. I couldn't believe what we gave up and still can‘t, crazy then and still crazy now. The brad hill will throw us into the path of other quality players sounds like mrs Bennett from pride and prejudice and about as convincing, made us look weak and desperate.

Anyway as per usual the phones will be ringing hot with old crocs looking for a pay day and other clubs making mates rates offers for our better players. I hope the revue quarantines our first 3 picks for the next 2 years without board approval. Just to add to this I’m still coming to terms with ratten getting two years mid season starring down a tough run home.

Having lived through 11 years of mediocrity, turning up to Round 1 2023 going to watch Kyle Hartigan's brick wall defense, Todd Goldstein chop out Marshall in the ruck, Shaun Higgins add some flair to the forward line and Callan Ward for some added leadership around stoppage;

 

[Dard Ball Get]

Having lived through 11 years of mediocrity, turning up to Round 1 2023 going to watch Kyle Hartigan's brick wall defense, Todd Goldstein chop out Marshall in the ruck, Shaun Higgins add some flair to the forward line and Callan Ward for some added leadership around stoppage;

Wot

 

[George]

View attachment 1501849

Wot

No wonder you clicked on it then, had to see what all the fuss was about didn't you?

 

[phantom13]

You didn't say it at the time, I've gone back and had a look and couldn't find anything, and the majority view was we had improved the list so saying it's a bad deal 3 years or whatever after the fact just because it didn't turn out to how we would've hoped is revisionism.

Gags has helped build a list that you say is built to challenge now but then you also say he should be sacked. That doesn't make much sense. If we're not in a rebuilding phase why should he focus on rebuilding it. If the aim is to challenge then he has done that according to you. It's up to the coaches to get the most out of the list you say is built to challenge.

I don’t think I posted around here that much back when the Hill deal was done but he’s legitimately been one of my most loathed players since he debuted for the Hawks but I can’t stand players who hate contests, he might be the most soft outside player in footballing history. My mates messaged me laughing their asses off when we traded for him knowing I’d be filthy.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

I stick them up my arse for immediate and prolonged effect

Don't even joke about that as its true , been there done that

Yeah, but what about the anti inflammatories?

 

[CaptainRisky]

Yeah, but what about the anti inflammatories?

Don't knock it until you have tried it

 

[gringo2011]

I think he would have to be the main man Gringo. Realistically I think Lyon’s presence would be a source of instability for Ratten. Media speculation and all that.

He would be ideal as a sounding board for Ratten. Better yet as the senior coach.

If Noble was also Football Manager we would have a very powerful and forceful football department. I’d expect there would be some tightening up of team discipline and buy-in. And standards might also improve.

I rate Noble highly. I think it would be a great appointment.

 

[gringo2011]

You didn't say it at the time, I've gone back and had a look and couldn't find anything, and the majority view was we had improved the list so saying it's a bad deal 3 years or whatever after the fact just because it didn't turn out to how we would've hoped is revisionism.

Gags has helped build a list that you say is built to challenge now but then you also say he should be sacked. That doesn't make much sense. If we're not in a rebuilding phase why should he focus on rebuilding it. If the aim is to challenge then he has done that according to you. It's up to the coaches to get the most out of the list you say is built to challenge.

I had a quick look, in his trade thread there were plenty of us but I was telling people before when there were ay terms agreed too as well.

Is the Hill deal no longer 10, a future 2nd, 58 and Acres? Because if it still is that is one absolute s**t trade. WC paid overs for Tim Kelly and we're almost paying the same for a player half the calibre of Kelly.

Why would you look at the trade period on the whole and not each individual trade? Winning one trade doesn't mean it's now more acceptable or amenable to lose another just to share those profits around with everyone. This isn't communism. If we win the trade period on the whole that's great but if we get screwed in one trade we still get royally screwed in one trade and so could've theoretically done better in the trade period.

So what did we get for Acres? Seems like we've just thrown a quality player away for nothing in the desperation to get the Hill deal done, not happy.

Along with Steven going to Geelong for SFA it really takes the gloss off this trade period.

Hill
2020 3rd

for

10
Acres
58
2020 2nd
2020 4th


Looks awful to me

So 10, pick for Stuv, future 2 and 4th PLUS Acres

fmd

Acres. 10. 58. 2020 r2 and r4. For brad hill. * me dead.

WTF did we just do. I like Hill but Jesus. He'd better be the best player at the club next year and for several after that.

That's a joke that trade for Hill

So much for Satan and Gags how much can we over pay for Hill, let rememeber they traded Langdon for a future second round pick
Makes me feel sick

Hill trade through. 10, future 2nd and 4th, 58 and Acres for Hill and a future 3rd.

This trade period has gone to s**t on the last day hasn't it.

I might add we just put up a sign saying we’re soft touches, I can only imagine what we’d pay for an A grade inside mid.

We really are the club that the AFL rules prohibiting certain trades was written for fmd.

Holy s**t that is an atrocious trade for Hill. I need to put the phone down and walk outside. What the actual *.

I hope we never ever have to deal with that swine Bell ever again.

What a painful 10 days.

 

[Yawkey way]

I had a quick look, in his trade thread there were plenty of us but I was telling people before when there were ay terms agreed too as well.

I posted so many times but along with others was howled down, it wasn’t rocket science we were robbed blind. Anyway what’s done is done but why would you reward the people responsible ?.

 

[Sully111]

I was guilty of being seduced by just wanting decent players at our club. Rated Hill, but looking back, there's no doubt what we gave away for him was ridiculous.

I still believe he offers something that under a different coach could be valuable to the group... but that doesn't change the fact the trade was woeful.

In my experience the only way to do well in a deal is if you're prepared to walk away from it. That's in all forms of business. Clearly, we weren't, so freo had their dirty way with us.

 

[Mowman]

I had a quick look, in his trade thread there were plenty of us but I was telling people before when there were ay terms agreed too as well.

Many said the same things
With Hannabery
Richo's extension
Signing Ratts to early
Lets not talk about Paddy - Trac
We as a club make to many bad decisions

 

[gringo2011]

I posted so many times but along with others was howled down, it wasn’t rocket science we were robbed blind. Anyway what’s done is done but why would you reward the people responsible ?.

At that point, I'd tried to not post much because I was in such a bad mood. Sold Bruce and Stuv for jack shit and over paid for Hill while throwing away Goat. I had to have a self imposed posting break because I was getting triggered. I told people that they'd hate Hill too. He was the kind of player Saints fans have never liked.

 

[MightySaint]

The ****ing revisionism has gone insane. A crapload of this forum was against the Hill trade. The 2019 trade thread is outraged at the cost.

 

[gringo2011]

I was guilty of being seduced by just wanting decent players at our club. Rated Hill, but looking back, there's no doubt what we gave away for him was ridiculous.

I still believe he offers something that under a different coach could be valuable to the group... but that doesn't change the fact the trade was woeful.

In my experience the only way to do well in a deal is if you're prepared to walk away from it. That's in all forms of business. Clearly, we weren't, so freo had their dirty way with us.

Hill is still a decent player, and he's still the player we paid overs for. If you had a coach with a different game plan he's still got value. I can just see us selling Hill off for nothing then pissing Ratts off half way through next year and be back chasing a Hill type again. At least wait until Lenny gets a look over the mids. Ratts couldn't find his own toes, let Sir Lenny work out how to use him. Ratts has a habit of getting the worst out of players before moving them back to where they play well.