Training 2023 Pre Season

[plugger66]

Re our ability to kick goals, it’s worth remembering that in 2020 we won a final and finished 5th, and up forward we had the following main marking targets for the year:

King- 22 goals from 18 games
Marshall- 13 goals from 19 games
Membrey- 20 goals from 18 games
Ryder- 10 goals from 14 games

Max was a skinny rake baby in his first year.
Ro isn’t a significant scoring threat up forward.
Ryder was playing mostly ruck.
Skunk had a stinker of a year.

Structurally it was better than what we look like starting with this year, but that’s about it. It had very little else going for it. They averaged about a goal a game between them, which is all kinds of ordinary. Yet it didn’t stop us finishing 5th.

Are we having the quarters of similar time? Are we living in a bubble. I think once a book is written about that year we may just see how weird it was. Having said that the forward line still had some big talls nearly every game. We have no big talls for the first few now. Big in height and build before we get stats on everyone’s height. By the way will butler kick as many as back then. Hasn’t looked like it since. Of course our ability to kick goals is a real thing early.

 

[SteeleSaints]

No head coach can create miracles, but we have surrounded a very good coach (RTB) with excellent assistants - Corey, Harvey, Hayes, Goddard, Batchelor & Carroll.

We have significant holes in our list namely another dominant key forward and a versatile ruckman, 2 x elite midfielders and our kicking skills perpetually let us down. Football is a game of keepings off and until we can collectively improve our field kicking and can rely on our shots on goal skills, we are not going to be contenders.

We may already have some of those players to take us to the next level on the list, but they are going to take some time to become dominant in their positions eg King, Battle, Higgins, Gresham, Hayes, Keeler, Windhager, Owens, Phillipou, NWM, Sharman, Heath, Van Es & Hotton. The question is whether they can peak while we still have the more senior players firing is the Big If? If RTB and his coaches can transition these afore mentioned players before we lose the older core we will be a very good side and capable of anything. The issue is the age/experience gap between our core and the elite kids we have just brought in.Most GF winning teams can afford to have a few inexperienced players, but not as many as we will be relying on. So with the above in mind it might take a season or two before we really hit our straps, lets just hope it occurs before we lose some of our older players

 

[Cairnsman]

Jeez - if I see the word "re-build" again I'll have a f***ing conniption.

We finished last year with 11 wins and 11 losses and everyone on here will agree that we s*** the bed on a number of occasions, so we should have played finals last year.

So we don't need a rebuild - we need to attract additional "experienced" talent to the existing roster. We won't do that by finishing bottom 4, we will do it by being a club on the rise.

So if Lyon is a better coach than Ratten, and if the revamped assistant coaching structure is better than last year then at the end of this year we should be looking like a club on the rise.

If not then its a fail.

That's how the media will frame the narrative, he may get a honeymoon period in his first season, especially with the injuries we have. But at some point you'd expect things will get combative between Lyon and the media if the wins don't come. I'd expect the media will dissect his performance with a lot more vigour now that he's back at a Victorian club. He enjoyed, is still enjoying the luxury of not being at a Vic club through what was a very tumultuous performance over in the West and I don't think a lot of his time in the west was on the radar of Vic fans.

 

[plugger66]

Welcome to the club Jo Jo Zep.

Hope there aren’t to many falcons.

 

[Cairnsman]

Are we having the quarters of similar time? Are we living in a bubble. I think once a book is written about that year we may just see how weird it was. Having said that the forward line still had some big talls nearly every game. We have no big talls for the first few now. Big in height and build before we get stats on everyone’s height. By the way will butler kick as many as back then. Hasn’t looked like it since. Of course our ability to kick goals is a real thing early.

The very suggestion it was the Asterix Cup still winds those up who like to view that season as full strength competition but it was anything but. Wasn't Lethlean on the record as saying we probably over achieved that season because we adapted to bubble life better than most clubs and players?

 

[Cairnsman]

Yes we didn’t win one last time but the idea of all I’m still holds even if it means you are stuffed for a few years after. Lyon isn’t responsible for our poor last 4 or 5 years and there has been no hope of finals in that time bar one year. I’d take Lyons years even knowing what happened in a few years after he left than being in no man’s land in the last few years that isn’t anything to do with how he left us.

I just hope the club give Lyon at least 4 years, I'd back him to get one flag in 10 years, more is better. But I think he's got a fair bit of work to do on building the list to suit his needs, it won't surprise me if there is a big turnover at years end as he tries to get the players he needs

 

[SaintsSeptember]

So footy is that simple you can even respond with words. Just out of interest why do you think we went backwards the first year lyon coached us last time? Less injuries. Just as many stars most who had another year under their belt yet we failed to play finals.

Massive change of game plan.

I don't think we will see anything so radical this time around.

 

[plugger66]

I just hope the club give Lyon at least 4 years, I'd back him to get one flag in 10 years, more is better. But I think he's got a fair bit of work to do on building the list to suit his needs, it won't surprise me if there is a big turnover at years end as he tries to get the players he needs

No issue with all that. He will know if the list is good enough by years end even if we play finals.

 

[plugger66]

Massive change of game plan.

I don't think we will see anything so radical this time around.

I don’t understand game plans anywhere near well enough to say that. I do understand how good lists are and we had an excellent list that still went backwards. We now have an average list that many on here said was coached just ok at best. If those on here are right you would expect a fairly big change in game plan.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

I don’t understand game plans anywhere near well enough to say that. I do understand how good lists are and we had an excellent list that still went backwards. We now have an average list that many on here said was coached just ok at best. If those on here are right you would expect a fairly big change in game plan.

Back then, "run and spread" , "defensive running " "Defensive forwards " ( McQualter ) etc was totally alien to our guys.

If they sacked Ratten because our list wasn't good enough then they are idiots.

 

[Cairnsman]

I don’t understand game plans anywhere near well enough to say that. I do understand how good lists are and we had an excellent list that still went backwards. We now have an average list that many on here said was coached just ok at best. If those on here are right you would expect a fairly big change in game plan.

I remember hearing Dangerfield explain how the difference in game plans at AFL level is not hugely different between all 18 clubs, he said what separates the top 4 from the bottom 4 is the ability to execute. And Geelong's flag last year is the best illustration of that, Scott tweaked the game plan and the club were able to execute it from R1 with great precession. Game plan is important but isn't skills to execute even more important?

 

[Cairnsman]

Back then, "run and spread" , "defensive running " "Defensive forwards " ( McQualter ) etc was totally alien to our guys.

If they sacked Ratten because our list wasn't good enough then they are idiots.

could be something in that, Bassett put in writing in 2021 we were going to be in premiership contention in 2022, 12 months later it looked like a pretty silly claim to make, I still scratch my head at how wrong he got it and why he got it so wrong. Was he asleep at the wheel? I expect the media to focus on Bassett and his performance if things turn pair shape after his "all chips in" move with Lyon.

 

[plugger66]

Back then, "run and spread" , "defensive running " "Defensive forwards " ( McQualter ) etc was totally alien to our guys.

If they sacked Ratten because our list wasn't good enough then they are idiots.

Well that suggests his coaching wasn’t good enough which surely includes game plans. I’m not saying they can’t learn it in 3 months. I’m saying it could be an excuse if we don’t improve because they couldn’t learn it quick enough. Also I’d suggest and could be completely wrong but early we could be playing differently because of the types missing to later on in the season. It’s a lot to take on.

 

[plugger66]

could be something in that, Bassett put in writing in 2021 we were going to be in premiership contention in 2022, 12 months later it looked like a pretty silly claim to make, I still scratch my head at how wrong he got it and why he got it so wrong. Was he asleep at the wheel? I expect the media to focus on Bassett and his performance if things turn pair shape after his "all chips in" move with Lyon.

Isn’t Bassett main role to improve off the ground stuff including coaches and other staff? That has really come good. Predictions by a president should be taken like a supporter which he is when it comes to who wins. Supporters get it right or wrong all the time.

 

[Cairnsman]

Well that suggests his coaching wasn’t good enough which surely includes game plans. I’m not saying they can’t learn it in 3 months. I’m saying it could be an excuse if we don’t improve because they couldn’t learn it quick enough. Also I’d suggest and could be completely wrong but early we could be playing differently because of the types missing to later on in the season. It’s a lot to take on.

I fear that this will happen, I'd like to think though Lyon has the long game in mind and trains the style he wants to play irrespective of player availability. Chris Scott said AFL teams that don't focus on their own style irrespective of opposition or other factors generally lose.

 

[pebblesofsand]

So footy is that simple you can even respond with words. Just out of interest why do you think we went backwards the first year lyon coached us last time? Less injuries. Just as many stars most who had another year under their belt yet we failed to play finals.

OK.

In words - your proposal that going backwards will make us more attractive is laughable.

Or in GIF world

As to why we went backwards in Lyons first year - it was because we'd sacked a coach who had been successful and was loved by the players.

If I remember correctly most of the starting 22, ended up at Thomas's house after he'd been unceremoniously dumped by the Butterrs.

His crime - finishing 6th in 2006 after being overrun by Melbourne in the Elimination final despite the fact that Hamill and Maxie were underdone and Gehrig, Harvey, Kosi and both Clarke's got injured during the game.

Butterrs decision stuffed the morale at the club and thats why we went backwards.

 

[plugger66]

I fear that this will happen, I'd like to think though Lyon has the long game in mind and trains the style he wants to play irrespective of player availability. Chris Scott said AFL teams that don't focus on their own style irrespective of opposition or other factors generally lose.

Chris scott has won a flag and isn’t in his first year. Geelong supporters were mostly satified before last year. Saints supporters have a gun next to their tv.

 

[plugger66]

OK.

In words - your proposal that going backwards will make us more attractive is laughable.

Or in GIF world

As to why we went backwards in Lyons first year - it was because we'd sacked a coach who had been successful and was loved by the players.

If I remember correctly most of the starting 22, ended up at Thomas's house after he'd been unceremoniously dumped by the Butterrs.

His crime - finishing 6th in 2006 after being overrun by Melbourne in the Elimination final despite the fact that Hamill and Maxie were underdone and Gehrig, Harvey, Kosi and both Clarke's got injured during the game.

Butterrs decision stuffed the morale at the club and thats why we went backwards.

Well I’d love to agree with that but that isn’t anything like what I heard. Yep I’m going to use the fact I probably knew 10 players back then and saw them weekly for dinner at my house. Yep is it big noting or telling you what I think I know if they were truthful. And I’m not discounting fibs but I’m backing it to be true. The game plan changes were huge. They weren’t even bedded down completely in 2008 or was it they were still pissed off losing thomas? Very very doubtful. Footballers get over things unbelievably quickly. I’d use a gif but don’t know how or what it even means.

Just out of interest did I say more attractive? I hope not. Seems a strange thing to say. Also I think we finished 8th in 2006.

 

[Cairnsman]

Chris scott has won a flag and isn’t in his first year. Geelong supporters were mostly satified before last year. Saints supporters have a gun next to their tv.

I have a water pistol with vinegar in it, I squirt my eyes after a bad game as I prefer the self harm over a quick and painless death.

 

[Cairnsman]

Isn’t Bassett main role to improve off the ground stuff including coaches and other staff? That has really come good. Predictions by a president should be taken like a supporter which he is when it comes to who wins. Supporters get it right or wrong all the time.

I'm probably going to wait until a couple of seasons are played before I declare anything has come good. On Bassett I suspect the clubs performance between Ratts new contract and his sacking will come under scrutiny, it was weird stuff and suggests someone took their eyes off the road. Could be wrong though, if things are a raging success then Bassett will be seen as a genius. What's that say about there being a fine line between Rooster and feather duster.

 

[lewdogs]

I fear that this will happen, I'd like to think though Lyon has the long game in mind and trains the style he wants to play irrespective of player availability. Chris Scott said AFL teams that don't focus on their own style irrespective of opposition or other factors generally lose.

Lyon will coach to win, whether that is immediate or if it takes the team some time to adapt to a different style or if it fails completely who knows but the idea that you can play a long game is a bit of a myth I think.

Honestly the long game in footy is a mugs game. The Cats have been up the top for nearly 20 years, I'd way rather be where we are than North or what Hawthorn are doing.

The aim needs to be become a regular finals side and go from there. Lyon is actually coming into a pretty good role with at least the basis of a decent team in place.

 

[Mowman]

Butterrs decision stuffed the morale at the club and thats why we went backwards.

He was all f%%ked up on cocaine and had lost the plot

 

[plugger66]

He was all f%%ked up on cocaine and had lost the plot

He was for sure that didn’t have much or effect on the player’s performance in 2007. Changing how we played had the huge effect.

 

[Cairnsman]

Lyon will coach to win, whether that is immediate or if it takes the team some time to adapt to a different style or if it fails completely who knows but the idea that you can play a long game is a bit of a myth I think.

Honestly the long game in footy is a mugs game. The Cats have been up the top for nearly 20 years, I'd way rather be where we are than North or what Hawthorn are doing.

The aim needs to be become a regular finals side and go from there. Lyon is actually coming into a pretty good role with at least the basis of a decent team in place.

Yeah I'm big on the quality of list makes the coach and not the other way around, I'm also not sure about this list putting a decent team in place, the list vulnerabilities are very sensitive to injury with a severe lack of depth, however if the players who debuted last year and also some established players can improve then obviously we have finally had some luck with list development. But I think Lyon will have to turn this list over a fair bit before he gets the type of players who can be standing in the dying minutes of a GF.

 

[DougalHoward]

I thought 2008 was the end of the line for us when we got bundled out of finals. The end for Harves, Gherig, McGuire, Fiora, Voss, Peckett, Thompson etc, guys like Birss, Attard, Gardiner and Rix running around in the seniors. Ball, Hudgeton and X-Man were banged up etc...it looked like the young Hawks were up and coming and we were on the way down.

After the 2008 prelim I thought we'd come back bigger and better

I was only 10 years old at the time though