Training 2023 Pre Season

[SaintsSeptember]

I remember some commentator during a Cats game, suggesting that Steve Johnson could have been a mid in a lot of teams, but Geelong had so many good ones that he could be a forward.
I'd like Gresh to be our Steve Johnson.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

He should be used predominantly as a small forward with short stints on ball..maybe a 80/20 split!

I understand the obsession with Gresh as a forward but he is our most dynamic mid... at times the only on who looked capable of bursting from a stoppage & getting the ball going our way.

Hopefully Windy & co can help in that regard but he's too important in the guts to waste as a forward pocket (and he doesn't have great defensive skills to apply the forward pressure RTB will demand).

 

[bird_man]

I understand the obsession with Gresh as a forward but he is our most dynamic mid... at times the only on who looked capable of bursting from a stoppage & getting the ball going our way.

Hopefully Windy & co can help in that regard but he's too important in the guts to waste as a forward pocket (and he doesn't have great defensive skills to apply the forward pressure RTB will demand).

unfortunately he’s also an awful field kick when playing in the midfield and doesn’t get a lot of distance out of his kick.

I can see both sides of the argument, but I’d like to see him do around a 50-50 split.

He is a genuine match winner when he spends time forward, we’ve seen that.

We need a few young mids to step up for this to happen though

 

[Cairnsman]

I think Gresh's rushed roost around the body is his main issue that sets him back as a mid. Really hoping that that will get coached out of him this year and think it is possible with a more disciplined coaching setup and structures.

At the age of 25 it's probably a poor technique he's stuck with, the time to correct those issues in the juniors.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

We need the likes of Bytel, Byrnes, Clark, Jones, Stocker , Windhager, Owens, Phillipou to displace him.
Then he can play forward.

 

[bird_man]

I think Gresh's rushed roost around the body is his main issue that sets him back as a mid. Really hoping that that will get coached out of him this year and think it is possible with a more disciplined coaching setup and structures.

It’s one of the most frustrating things in my time watching footy.

More times than not he will kick the ball as though he’s under immense pressure. It’s almost as if he is trying to kick a mongrel punt.

It’s the one thing that holds him back from being an elite mid IMO.

There have been many elite mids with questionable kicking, but most are big bodies with a big burst of pace. They can push an opponent off, steam forward 15 metres and kick it 60.

Gresh will never be that so he at least needs to learn to hit his targets.

 

[phantom13]

I think our best option with Gresh would be to encourage him to be the ball player and use that evasiveness to create space for outside players (read better kicks) and find them with hands.

Imagine Scott West

Scott West

Age

50

Ht

178cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

25.4

5star

K

12.7

5star

HB

12.6

5star

M

3.3

3star

T

2.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

12.0

3star

K

6.6

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

1.4

2star

T

1.0

3star

with Greshs evasiveness. He makes the first tackler miss and draws a second or third and we have SPACE at stoppages. Rather than his first instinct which is evade and then throw it on the boot around his body.

He could be a real weapon at stoppages but not if his mentality is mung punt first.

 

[hangdog]

We do a heap of situational stuff.

Clock on the screen and the coaches set the scene and expectation.

I was more referring to how we practice our goal kicking now as opposed to previous years which felt more suburban football - with everyone kicking shots but not replicating even having a man on the mark.

Except for king. He always had roughy. Especially when he took his 100 shots from the goal square.

I’m sure others can support this. But the biggest takeaway from the improvement to our standards - is probably the level of education the boys get now.

Feedback immediately- sometimes it’s as small as the positioning of the guy 10m from the contest.

Other times it’s big as you would have seen from the training footage from fridays match sim. Calls an entire side in and literally educates them + challenges.

A number have already spoken about him pacing the outside of drills and then talking to boys individually.

What will disappoint people is that there hasn’t been to my knowledge a great focus on footskills. But I imagine they will weed the Clanger kings from the list at years end.

If I was to paint a picture of who we want to be.

Offensively- quick. Direct. Use of hand balls and corridor. Speed of ball is the emphasis. Chaos forward of the centre.

Defensively- pragmatic, dour. Happy to create Stoppages. Back 7 in open play. Physical. Smarter

Love the summary.

Just on foot skills. If we're doing more match-sim/situational training that will also help with foot skills. No better way to improve skills than in match like scenarios.

 

[hangdog]

unfortunately he’s also an awful field kick when playing in the midfield and doesn’t get a lot of distance out of his kick.

I can see both sides of the argument, but I’d like to see him do around a 50-50 split.

He is a genuine match winner when he spends time forward, we’ve seen that.

We need a few young mids to step up for this to happen though

I think if you asked the other 17 clubs where they DON'T want Gresham to play, they'd mostly say predominantly forward. His danger level as a forward is higher than Higgins, Billings and Butler IMO. But I'd argue Jones, Clark and Windy could match his threat as a mid. He could play 20-30% as a mid and be very impactful. Having genuine Fwd/Mid options like Poo, Owens, Billings and even Higgins gives us a plenty of options rotating through.

 

[Cairnsman]

Can Higgins and Gresh both play in the same side as small forwards?

 

[saintmike65]

17 on our current list of players are OOC at the end of the year. Then there's about another 17 who would be "available" for trade if the price was right.

St Kilda
Player Status
Daniel McKenzie RFA
Hunter Clark NFA
Jack Bytel NFA
Jack Peris NFA
Jade Gresham RFA
Jimmy Webster UFA
Leo Connolly NFA
Liam Stocker NFA
Mason Wood NFA
Nasiah Wanganeen-Milera NFA
Nicholas Coffield NFA
Oscar Adams NFA
Ryan Byrnes NFA
Sebastian Ross UFA
Tom Campbell NFA
Tom Highmore
Anthony Caminiti

Byrnes, Bytel, Connelly, Cambell, Jones & Highmore are all playing for their career’s!

 

[CursingFijian]

I think our best option with Gresh would be to encourage him to be the ball player and use that evasiveness to create space for outside players (read better kicks) and find them with hands.

Imagine Scott West with Greshs evasiveness. He makes the first tackler miss and draws a second or third and we have SPACE at stoppages. Rather than his first instinct which is evade and then throw it on the boot around his body.

He could be a real weapon at stoppages but not if his mentality is mung punt first.

I thought he did a bit more of that last season.

 

[saintmike65]

Can Higgins and Gresh both play in the same side as small forwards?

They’re different types so yes..don’t forget Gresham will also get some midfield minutes.

 

[saintmike65]

I understand the obsession with Gresh as a forward but he is our most dynamic mid... at times the only on who looked capable of bursting from a stoppage & getting the ball going our way.

Hopefully Windy & co can help in that regard but he's too important in the guts to waste as a forward pocket (and he doesn't have great defensive skills to apply the forward pressure RTB will demand).

Gresham is our best clearance player!

 

[saintmike65]

Love the summary.

Just on foot skills. If we're doing more match-sim/situational training that will also help with foot skills. No better way to improve skills than in match like scenarios.

The footskills are getting better but still not where they need to be.
I’ll be keeping a very close eye on this at Friday’s intra club.

 

[saintmike65]

Doe's "The Hammer" get 24, 46 or 47 jumper???

Might keep 47..good enough for Jack Hayes last year!!

 

[saintmike65]

.
Caminiti. Personally I think he is a great pick-up as SSP.

Earlier in this thread I kept advocating that our list was short one more genuine key forward and was howled down by most, So I am definitely pleased that we have picked up in Caminiti as a genuine key forward with lots of potential. I am definitely also most pleased that we are focussing on the future by going young, rather than just worrying about this season by say instead chasing an older one-year stop-gap.

He is a good contrast like Sunny posted to our medium talls like Sharman. But he is also nice contrast to Max King.

Then we also have Isaac Keeler.

This to me now gives us a very good blend on our list of three tall forwards in King 202, Keeler 198 and Caminiti 196, then the shorter Sharman 193 and Hayes 193 rounded out by the shorter again, but high vertical leaping Membrey at 188 and who still has many years left in the tank. All of them play differently.

Possibly Allison too, though I am still not convinced on his marking and general football nouse. Not all will make it, but there is good potential there, and possibly freakishly good too.

That marking group is then well supported by Phillipou and Owens both at 190 odd who bath can be HF-mid types who are forward marking threats.

This combined group has the raw talent to be moulded into a powerful forward line.

With Gresham, Higgins, Butler and Billings there is also a reasonable group of smalls to work with the above talls and mediums. Hotton impresses me greatly too, though is injury is going to limit him this year. It would be nice if Peris could come on as a player as his lightning pace could be a real asset, but football wise his kicking skills and play reading are sub-par at present.

If Peris gets a game it’ll be as a nullifying small forward, similar to what the boss did with McQualter.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Gresham is our best clearance player!

No he's not, Steele and Crouch get more clearances per game.

 

[Cairnsman]

Gresham is our best clearance player!

That may be the case but he's also one of our worst kicks and our mechanism into F50 is a shocker because of our poor skills by foot. And yes SM65 I know you strongly believe the boss has touched everyone with his magic wand but there is the reality of it all which is our forward line issues will be partly improved when we get some mids who can kick. I think Gresh transcends the wider skills issues the team has had for a long time and things need to change other than a new coach. Having said that beggers can't be choosers so it might be tbe status quo for season 23.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Byrnes, Bytel, Connelly, Cambell, Jones & Highmore are all playing for their career’s!

Byrnes needs to find more of the ball when he plays at senior level. He was pretty bad at the start of 2022, and ok, without being spectacular when he played a few games at the end of year.

Bytel has played 3 games of note in 2021. 7 CP's, 10 tackles, 6 clearances // 10 CP's , 7 tackles, 5 clearances // 12CP's , 8 tackles, 7 clearances. He needs to pretty much be fit and available if anything happens to Steele or Crouch ( he wasn't in 2022 ). If he can do that stuff consistently he's a very very good player.

Connelly is behind some pretty solid hbf options, ( NWM , Sinclair, Paton, Webster , Coffield ), he'll need to impress at VFL level.

Campbell: Backup ruck? I'd view him as pretty safe, as safe as any 31 year old can be.

Jones, beats me, if he can be reliable he's a solid player who sprays it a bit.

Highmore, different sort of player to Connelly, but kind of up against the same problem.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

unfortunately he’s also an awful field kick when playing in the midfield and doesn’t get a lot of distance out of his kick.

I can see both sides of the argument, but I’d like to see him do around a 50-50 split.

He is a genuine match winner when he spends time forward, we’ve seen that.

We need a few young mids to step up for this to happen though

I don't think he's an awful kick at all. When he boots the sheizen out of it it's usually ineffective but when he tries to actually hit a target he's no worse than most others on our list.

It's probably another case of people saying something often enough that it becomes worse than reality.... a bit like Lonie being selfish, etc.

Agree with Gresh spending time forward but unless our midfield suddenly finds some burst players, he'll be wasted playing forward.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

At the age of 25 it's probably a poor technique he's stuck with, the time to correct those issues in the juniors.

It's not technique IMO, it's decision making.

Under the pump & Gresh just tries to get as much distance as possible instead of looking for someone.

 

[bird_man]

I don't think he's an awful kick at all. When he boots the sheizen out of it it's usually ineffective but when he tries to actually hit a target he's no worse than most others on our list.

It's probably another case of people saying something often enough that it becomes worse than reality.... a bit like Lonie being selfish, etc.

Agree with Gresh spending time forward but unless our midfield suddenly finds some burst players, he'll be wasted playing forward.

He is an awful kick when he plays in the midfield.

This isn’t due to the fact that he can’t kick. He can kick a drop punt with no issue when he tries. Unfortunately more times than not he thinks it’s a better option to throw it on the boot.

Mostly I think he makes poor decisions and thinks he’s under more pressure than he actually is.

This has nothing to do with what others have said about his kicking and 100% based on me watching him each week.

 

[phantom13]

I thought he did a bit more of that last season.

Yeh I completely agree. He’s capable of it and I could see Ross seeing that same capability and using a way to use it.

 

[AirWinmar]

It’s one of the most frustrating things in my time watching footy.

More times than not he will kick the ball as though he’s under immense pressure. It’s almost as if he is trying to kick a mongrel punt.

It’s the one thing that holds him back from being an elite mid IMO.

There have been many elite mids with questionable kicking, but most are big bodies with a big burst of pace. They can push an opponent off, steam forward 15 metres and kick it 60.

Gresh will never be that so he at least needs to learn to hit his targets.

I reckon his normal short kicking is pretty good, it's just those round the body ones and where he tries to kick it 50. As @cursingalso said, i think his team mates need to also help him out by a- not demanding the ball when Gresh has it and your 60 meters away and b- present to give him an option to recieve a handball when in tight.

Be awesome if he can reduce that aspect, he is probably our most dynamic mid.

Agree he should be rotated forward tho for a decent split, coz he can be a dangerous forward but we also need to rotate more thru there