Training 2023 Pre Season

[FQFjt]

Every player in the comp would be a poor kick (bar maybe NWM) when the instruction is to bomb it on King's head while stationary.

 

[Winmar2Lockett]

I’m sure you said you knew longer so I’d expect you to stick up for him. Not sure I think hickey is the same player but he is bloody close. Like now back then he suited modern footy. Longer didn’t. Well not unless people rate hitting a ball that more often then not doesn’t achieve anything.

I rated both of them because they were very different ruckmen.

Billy was great for the mids because he was a good tap ruckman & could clear space around stoppages.

Tom was pretty good around the ground but could get overpowered by bigger rucks.

Hickey is a vastly better player now that he was with us.

 

[phantom13]

Yeah not sure I'm buying this whole suggestion that if Ratts had systems he'd be able to paper over the cracks, (poor skills).
Can't remember too many teams winning flags with systems and poor skills. And that's without going down a rabbit hole in the debate in Ratts versus Ross, it's just I think we might find that Ross is going to have exactly the same problems trying to work with poor skills. He might squeeze a bit here and there but not enough to punch is into top 4 on a consistent basis.

FWIW ive never said anything about papering over cracks or Ratts but youre having a laugh if you think Ross isnt a more tactically astutue coach that Ratts. Ultimately Ross' greatest attribute as a coach was maximising players strengths and minimising their weaknesses which is pretty much all were talking about, including the chaos ball stuff.

This poor skills stuff is massively overblown too no team has 44 elite kicks, weve got as many really good ones (Sincs, WangMil, Hill, Billings, Coff, Membs) as any other team and i honestly cant think of too many horrible ones (Gresh when hes around the body and Doogs kicking out).

 

[aussierulesrules]

Turns out Gresh finished the year ranked 102nd in the comp for turnovers. Averaging just 3.83 per game. Almost a full 3 per game less than Bailey Smith

6

Bailey Smith

Age

23

Ht

185cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.3

5star

K

8.5

3star

HB

9.8

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

3.8

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

19.8

5star

K

9.6

4star

HB

10.2

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

4star

CL

3.2

4star

D

14.8

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

3.4

5star

CL

1.6

4star

, who led that stat.

And given the fact he was 60th for disposals per game, being ranked 102 for turnovers means that on a turnover-per-disposal basis, a huge chunk of the comp are ahead of him in that regard.

Also worth noting that we didn’t have anyone in the top 25 for turnovers per game (compared to say Melbourne, who had 3 of the top 16, and 4 of the top 25 (Viney, Brayshaw, Oliver, Petracca) and only one in the top 55. Who surprisingly was Sincs, at 27.

 

[Oh When the Saints]

2023 pre-season and the Hickey v Longer debate is still going

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

2023 pre-season and the Hickey v Longer debate is still going

Those two will be long dead from old age in 2223 and the debate will still be going on

 

[Joffaboy]

I think I'll reserve judgement until we play other AFL clubs but from what you say it sounds like the boys are lighting it up when it's mate on mate. Just hoping it works when the real stuff begins

Do what you like, I am just telling you what has occurred, didn't seem like mates when playing, but then again, you would know more about it that people who have actually watched it.

 

[botts]

2023 pre-season and the Hickey v Longer debate is still going

Can’t wait for another truck vs McCartin debate later

 

[Tommy Wigs]

Shane Birss

Shane Birss

Age

41

Ht

183cm

Wt

80kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

12.8

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

5.4

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.0

4star

No current season stats available

D

10.4

3star

K

6.4

3star

HB

4.0

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

0.8

3star

vs Rob Eddy

 

[Cairnsman]

Do what you like, I am just telling you what has occurred, didn't seem like mates when playing, but then again, you would know more about it that people who have actually watched it.

Thanks, R1 to R23 is when I'll use my own eye test but good to be getting your fascinating insights into how they are training.

 

[Cairnsman]

FWIW ive never said anything about papering over cracks or Ratts but youre having a laugh if you think Ross isnt a more tactically astutue coach that Ratts. Ultimately Ross' greatest attribute as a coach was maximising players strengths and minimising their weaknesses which is pretty much all were talking about, including the chaos ball stuff.

This poor skills stuff is massively overblown too no team has 44 elite kicks, weve got as many really good ones (Sincs, WangMil, Hill, Billings, Coff, Membs) as any other team and i honestly cant think of too many horrible ones (Gresh when hes around the body and Doogs kicking out).

Well from what you claim finals in 2023 awaits us as we only missed by one game and it sounds like Ross will squeeze that game from what you say happens re poor skills.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Shane Birss vs Rob Eddy

Birss was a better footy player, but Eddy could run and spread.

 

[gringo2011]

This whole “poor skills” thing is way overblown IMO.

Our entire backline are good kicks.

Sincs
Wangmil
Coffield
Webster
Paton
Wilkie
Battle
Howard

Not one there that I would remotely consider to be a “poor kick”.

Then on the wings we’ve got Hill, who’s generally considered one of the better kicks in the comp (albeit capable of random stinker days) and Wood, who’s generally extremely clean by foot. D-Mac not as good, but vastly improved on his early days with us, and generally sticks to his kicking strength (which is kicking it long- he’s always been fine at that). His kicking is a non-issue these days IMO and I was extremely critical of it initially (on his short passes, which he missed time after time).

Then up forward we’ve got Billings, who’s generally a good to very good kick, Butler, who’s a perfectly fine kick, while Max and Skunk are both excellent field kicks, as is Sharman. Hayes was fine from memory. Higgo is a garbage set shot, but I don’t remember him butchering too many field kicks. Owens unfortunately looks to be a very ordinary kick, but hopefully he’ll improve that with work.

Then in the midfield we’ve got Steele, who’s a very solid kick on both feet, while Crouch is capable of both pretty piercing passes and the odd shank, but is generally about what you’d expect from an “extractor type”. I’ve been surprised at how much penetration he can get with his passes, for a guy who had a pretty average kicking rep. A lot of that may have been due to his groin issues, as he had a reputation as being a good kick when drafted.

While Roma is one of the best kicks you’d see for someone playing in the ruck full time.

Then there’s Jones, who is one of those types who I think some completely ignore all the good or perfectly fine kicks he does, and just focus on the odd ones he butchers. He can have his bad days by foot for sure, but he’s also had numerous days where his DE was extremely high for someone playing in the guts, where he hit target after target, and didn’t butcher any kicks. Very few guys who run that fast never butcher kicks.

Then there’s Hunter Clark, who is as dual-sided as almost anyone in the comp, which gives him an advantage over most (being able to go either side). He can definitely butcher kicks, but can also do terrific passes. Especially on his non-dominant foot, relative to the rest of the comp. Hopefully he’ll become more consistent on his right if he gets a good run with his body and his confidence right up.

Seb can obviously butcher kicks, but he’s another one who can also deliver it lace-out, if he slows down enough when running.

Then it’s on to Gresh. He’s another one whose poor kicking gets overblown, IMO.

For starters, like Clark, he’s very dual-sided, which is an advantage he has over most. Not many in the comp these days are as capable of hitting a guy lace-out on their opposite foot as Gresh is, so that’s a leg-up he has on most of the comp. He’s also more creative than most with his kicking, which is another advantage. Another thing he does really well is that if he does happen to butcher a short pass, he’s extremely quick to follow it up and put pressure on the opponent who’s gathered his poor kick. That can mitigate a lot of the damage. So they are three positives that put his kicking in the plus column relative to the rest of the comp.

Now on to the bad, he can definitely butcher kicks, and he loves the long-bomb across the body, but overall I strongly believe that the criticism of his kicking in general is overblown. For starters, for the first three points I mentioned, which he has over most, but also for the reasons I went into in detail in this post on the main board a few months ago. The numbers for him being this terrible kick just aren’t there. Especially for turnovers, where he averaged just 4 per game. Putting him 87th in the league, and almost half of the whopping 7.8 Bailey Smith was going at.

Post in thread 'St Kilda in no mans land'
Roast - St Kilda in no mans land

The year before Melbourne won the flag the media were openly bagging their kicking as deplorable. Their system and fitness tightened up and a bit of work with Choco on skills and the rest is history. There was one game a few years back against the Dees where it looked like the Saints and Demons were openly trying to lose to each other kicking it to the opposition more than team mates- we were the better of the two. They looked like they were in for 10 years of pain and another rebuild.

 

[gringo2011]

You make some really good points, the only thing about your summation that you don’t factor in is poor decision making, which has been an issue with numerous players.
Some players simply bite off too much with their kicks which result in turnovers.
Webster and Howard have butchered plenty of kicks out of defensive 50.
Hill also gets a bit too cute with some of his kicking, Ross tends to send half floating helicopter kicks into forward 50.
Jones tends to back pedal or run around in circles, which totally confuses his teammates!
The problem has been that players have lacked accountability since the boss left..not so now he’s back!!

Which is why system is so important. If they have a clear plan they don't need to stop and think for a few seconds. The drilled plan becomes second nature and takes uncertainty away. Decision making that slows down play is a sure sign of players being lost as to what they are meant to do which is on the coaches and footy department. Lyon will give them certainty about the expectations and processes that they have to follow to get a game.

 

[Joffaboy]

Thanks, R1 to R23 is when I'll use my own eye test but good to be getting your fascinating insights into how they are training.

Not fascinating, just other real Saints fans like to know what is going on at training, you seem to know more than people who actually go.
Good for you Houdini. Anyway won't be sucked into your trolling, have been worded up by others who know your bs. Goodbye

 

[Sun Ra]

The year before Melbourne won the flag the media were openly bagging their kicking as deplorable. Their system and fitness tightened up and a bit of work with Choco on skills and the rest is history. There was one game a few years back against the Dees where it looked like the Saints and Demons were openly trying to lose to each other kicking it to the opposition more than team mates- we were the better of the two. They looked like they were in for 10 years of pain and another rebuild.

Everyone knows it was Richo who unlocked the Dees for the flag. How did we ever let him go ......

 

[gringo2011]

Everyone knows it was Richo who unlocked the Dees for the flag. How did we ever let him go ......

Maybe he was alright at strategy and direction but no good at the day to day stuff. Pretty much unsupported by the footy department and had to play his whole time to keep his job too. His run and gun game plan came before lots of others started doing it but he never had a side capable of taking it any further.

 

[phantom13]

Well from what you claim finals in 2023 awaits us as we only missed by one game and it sounds like Ross will squeeze that game from what you say happens re poor skills.

I couldnt really care whether we make finals in 23 personally. Might be a step back for two steps forward given the changes in gamestyle and application.

 

[phantom13]

Thanks, R1 to R23 is when I'll use my own eye test but good to be getting your fascinating insights into how they are training.

Genuine question.

Do you put no value or thanks to those who go to training and provide their reports back?

Its like 70% of the reason i come on this thread.

 

[botts]

Anyone go to training today ?

 

[Cairnsman]

Genuine question.

Do you put no value or thanks to those who go to training and provide their reports back?

Its like 70% of the reason i come on this thread.

Absolutely I do but they are only fans and they are only watching "training" and history tells us the real measuring starts R1.

 

[Highlander35]

2023 pre-season and the Hickey v Longer debate is still going

Fam, just because it hasn't been relevant since the 2018 preseason doesn't mean we stop talking about it. I for one believe Lewis Peirce will come over the top of both this year.

 

[phantom13]

Absolutely I do but they are only fans and they are only watching "training" and history tells us the real measuring starts R1.

Are you not also "only a fan"?

 

[plugger66]

I rated both of them because they were very different ruckmen.

Billy was great for the mids because he was a good tap ruckman & could clear space around stoppages.

Tom was pretty good around the ground but could get overpowered by bigger rucks.

Hickey is a vastly better player now that he was with us.

That is true that he is better but I wouldn’t say vastly. Wce didn’t think so. He suits todays footy. He also suited footy 5 years ago. Anyway I’d rather Marshall now even if it is just the age. I doubt ww would have both whatever happened. Strangely the improvement in hickey isn’t hitting the red ball more it’s even more stats which was a strength anyway.

 

[Joffaboy]

Are you not also "only a fan"?

A fan that said that open space was a myth, when I pointed out that during match sim there was plent of mythical space in the backline, he got pissy and said it was because they were mates and other excuses.

he honestly thinks that people going to training think it is like a home and away match? We just try to give insight to what the coaches are trying to coach and we get this bs. A reason why most of the info is kept of the main forum because of this type of behaviour.