Training 2023 Pre Season

[phantom13]

I disagree but that's cool. Think DeGoey is probably the model for him. Doesn't really matter how he breaks lines, he just needs to do it and it will be better for us. Jones and Gresham are the POD mids in a pretty stodgy one paced set up.

Gresh doesnt really burst or bustle he steps and evades. You make the first guy miss then you force a second and third in and when you do that you create space, its like a draw or screen in footy, break up the assigments and sturctures at a stoppage.

Gresh makes the first miss then gives the hands and the defensive strcuture of the oppo is all at sea and you should be able to get the ball front side of the clearance.

Gresh in the midfield is not really what i personally want but if he does it its gotta be Dusty esque. In the for the bounce then go forward.

 

[phantom13]

More importantly phantom13 , which file hosting site will the practice match be live streamed on? Will there be a live stream? Will we delay putting it out until every other club has uploaded or streamed theirs?

Or is there a proper process involved???

We will soon find out

If it didnt go through a detailed and competitive tender process i dont want it.

 

[Cairnsman]

Modern footy can't rely on one way to score which was why I hated Ratts game plan so much. Every ball seemed to go through King so you could very easily block us out. Most sides will have a percentage of scores though their tall timber, some through general play, some through small opportunists and some through midsized runners finding space through work rate etc. I think that even if we changed up just the spread of goal kickers last year we would have made finals.

You need to have at least some skilled players but it's not necessary to have 22 laser-footed players to win a flag.

This mystical space on a modern AFL field you speak of, how does one find it? Are good foot skills required? The more I listen to our fans the more I think we have found some magical trick that no other club possesses. Yet the problem Ratts had still exists for Ross, and that is poor foot skills, so it's one thing to suggest vast areas of space exist on an AFL field in the modern two way running game, it's another to be able to drop the ball accurately into that space, ESPECIALLY at this new chaotic speed and under pressure, especially as fatigue sets in. The reality is most clubs use long bomb so I'm expecting we will still NEED to bomb the ball into F50.

 

[phantom13]

This mystical space on a modern AFL field you speak of, how does one find it? Are good foot skills required? The more I listen to our fans the more I think we have found some magical trick that no other club possesses. Yet the problem Ratts had still exists for Ross, and that is poor foot skills, so it's one thing to suggest vast areas of space exist on an AFL field in the modern two way running game, it's another to be able to drop the ball accurately into that space, ESPECIALLY at this new chaotic speed and under pressure, especially as fatigue sets in. The reality is most clubs use long bomb so I'm expecting we will still NEED to bomb the ball into F50.

Theres 36 blokes on a field 180m long and about 100m wide.

There is PLENTY of space on a footy field so im not really sure what youre trying to get at here.

Of course well still bomb the ball long, no one has ever suggested we wont.

As has been mentioned a few times chaos ball isnt a 120 minute proposition, its a few minutes a quarter to counter or enhance the game situation.

 

[Ephemeral Hope]

Its nice to wish he could but gresh just doesn't kick it well enough IMO, trying to model your game on a Two time brownlow medalist is a pretty big ask

Owens reckons he plays like Nat Fyfe

 

[gringo2011]

This mystical space on a modern AFL field you speak of, how does one find it? Are good foot skills required? The more I listen to our fans the more I think we have found some magical trick that no other club possesses. Yet the problem Ratts had still exists for Ross, and that is poor foot skills, so it's one thing to suggest vast areas of space exist on an AFL field in the modern two way running game, it's another to be able to drop the ball accurately into that space, ESPECIALLY at this new chaotic speed and under pressure, especially as fatigue sets in. The reality is most clubs use long bomb so I'm expecting we will still NEED to bomb the ball into F50.

Go watch some of Sydney last year. So much of their game is about team work to free opponents. Melbourne do it too. Someone will block for May and others will have folded back to mind his player so that he can intercept.

I was watching how Paddy McCartin was getting freed up and the way they'll all grapple a player to let Chad Warner stream away from the centre. They make space by playing a system with plays designed for just that. You make sacrifices for the greater good. I think that's why peak GWS type sides and GT Saints struggled. You get a great list of individuals but they don't have any self sacrificing types to do the dirty work to make others look great.

I think Ratts plays finals if he's fixed up our spread of goal kickers and designed a plan to isolate others rather than put every kick through Max King. You could probably say that having no depth back up for when Steele went down and a ready made KPF probably cost him his job too.

 

[ESDR]

Anybody at training today? Any report?

 

[George]

Not sure about the rating talent. Most of ours never maximise theirs so aren't in demand outside the club. On top of that we just weren't very good at drafting for years.

Maybe we just never have very good players to begin with

 

[SaintTwitch]

I very distinctly recall on the Amazon doco his manager being like, GC is a genuine 3 year deal (or maybe plan?). Then Dunstan got the pitch from Goodwin and got all horned up. It doesnt really matter in the end, hes kicking the dew off at Casey.

Loving the chat in here, lads. Its getting me through some quiet work days!

Just to add to this - the interest from GC (3 years and potential first team starter) was real until Dunstan openly bagged the Saints/Ratts in the media... regardless of whether it was right or wrong, it didnt help. Melbourne were the only club left after that with a 2 year rookie contract on peanuts.

 

[aussierulesrules]

This whole “poor skills” thing is way overblown IMO.

Our entire backline are good kicks.

Sincs
Wangmil
Coffield
Webster
Paton
Wilkie
Battle
Howard

Not one there that I would remotely consider to be a “poor kick”.

Then on the wings we’ve got Hill, who’s generally considered one of the better kicks in the comp (albeit capable of random stinker days) and Wood, who’s generally extremely clean by foot. D-Mac not as good, but vastly improved on his early days with us, and generally sticks to his kicking strength (which is kicking it long- he’s always been fine at that). His kicking is a non-issue these days IMO and I was extremely critical of it initially (on his short passes, which he missed time after time).

Then up forward we’ve got Billings, who’s generally a good to very good kick, Butler, who’s a perfectly fine kick, while Max and Skunk are both excellent field kicks, as is Sharman. Hayes was fine from memory. Higgo is a garbage set shot, but I don’t remember him butchering too many field kicks. Owens unfortunately looks to be a very ordinary kick, but hopefully he’ll improve that with work.

Then in the midfield we’ve got Steele, who’s a very solid kick on both feet, while Crouch is capable of both pretty piercing passes and the odd shank, but is generally about what you’d expect from an “extractor type”. I’ve been surprised at how much penetration he can get with his passes, for a guy who had a pretty average kicking rep. A lot of that may have been due to his groin issues, as he had a reputation as being a good kick when drafted.

While Roma is one of the best kicks you’d see for someone playing in the ruck full time.

Then there’s Jones, who is one of those types who I think some completely ignore all the good or perfectly fine kicks he does, and just focus on the odd ones he butchers. He can have his bad days by foot for sure, but he’s also had numerous days where his DE was extremely high for someone playing in the guts, where he hit target after target, and didn’t butcher any kicks. Very few guys who run that fast never butcher kicks.

Then there’s Hunter Clark

11

Hunter Clark

Age

25

Ht

186cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.5

4star

K

9.5

4star

HB

8.0

5star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.9

4star

CL

1.3

3star

D

16.0

4star

K

9.6

4star

HB

6.4

4star

M

3.1

3star

T

2.9

4star

CL

1.9

4star

D

13.2

4star

K

6.6

3star

HB

6.6

4star

M

2.2

3star

T

2.0

4star

CL

0.0

1star

, who is as dual-sided as almost anyone in the comp, which gives him an advantage over most (being able to go either side). He can definitely butcher kicks, but can also do terrific passes. Especially on his non-dominant foot, relative to the rest of the comp. Hopefully he’ll become more consistent on his right if he gets a good run with his body and his confidence right up.

Seb can obviously butcher kicks, but he’s another one who can also deliver it lace-out, if he slows down enough when running.

Then it’s on to Gresh. He’s another one whose poor kicking gets overblown, IMO.

For starters, like Clark, he’s very dual-sided, which is an advantage he has over most. Not many in the comp these days are as capable of hitting a guy lace-out on their opposite foot as Gresh is, so that’s a leg-up he has on most of the comp. He’s also more creative than most with his kicking, which is another advantage. Another thing he does really well is that if he does happen to butcher a short pass, he’s extremely quick to follow it up and put pressure on the opponent who’s gathered his poor kick. That can mitigate a lot of the damage. So they are three positives that put his kicking in the plus column relative to the rest of the comp.

Now on to the bad, he can definitely butcher kicks, and he loves the long-bomb across the body, but overall I strongly believe that the criticism of his kicking in general is overblown. For starters, for the first three points I mentioned, which he has over most, but also for the reasons I went into in detail in this post on the main board a few months ago. The numbers for him being this terrible kick just aren’t there. Especially for turnovers, where he averaged just 4 per game. Putting him 87th in the league, and almost half of the whopping 7.8 Bailey Smith

6

Bailey Smith

Age

23

Ht

185cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.3

5star

K

8.5

3star

HB

9.8

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

3.8

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

19.8

5star

K

9.6

4star

HB

10.2

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

3.2

4star

CL

3.2

4star

D

14.8

4star

K

7.6

3star

HB

7.2

5star

M

2.0

3star

T

3.4

5star

CL

1.6

4star

was going at.

Post in thread 'St Kilda in no mans land'
Roast - St Kilda in no mans land

 

[phantom13]

Loving the chat in here, lads. Its getting me through some quiet work days!

Just to add to this - the interest from GC (3 years and potential first team starter) was real until Dunstan openly bagged the Saints/Ratts in the media... regardless of whether it was right or wrong, it didnt help. Melbourne were the only club left after that with a 2 year rookie contract on peanuts.

THAAAAAATS right, yes.

Im actually not 100% if the GC thing was a contract but i understood it was 3 years and not horrible (read rookie) money.

 

[Joffaboy]

Theres 36 blokes on a field 180m long and about 100m wide.

There is PLENTY of space on a footy field so im not really sure what youre trying to get at here.

Of course well still bomb the ball long, no one has ever suggested we wont.

As has been mentioned a few times chaos ball isnt a 120 minute proposition, its a few minutes a quarter to counter or enhance the game situation.

Plenty of mythical space in match sim when they opened up the play through the centre. 4 or 5 times the 7 man defence was opened by quick corridor ball movement resulting in acres of forward 50 space and walked in goals.
The only myth is the one saying there is no space.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Cairnsman]

Yeah not sure I'm buying this whole suggestion that if Ratts had systems he'd be able to paper over the cracks, (poor skills).
Can't remember too many teams winning flags with systems and poor skills. And that's without going down a rabbit hole in the debate in Ratts versus Ross, it's just I think we might find that Ross is going to have exactly the same problems trying to work with poor skills. He might squeeze a bit here and there but not enough to punch is into top 4 on a consistent basis.

 

[Cairnsman]

Plenty of mythical space in match sim when they opened up the play through the centre. 4 or 5 times the 7 man defence was opened by quick corridor ball movement resulting in acres of forward 50 space and walked in goals.
The only myth is the one saying there is no space.

On SM-S908E using BigFooty.com mobile app

I think I'll reserve judgement until we play other AFL clubs but from what you say it sounds like the boys are lighting it up when it's mate on mate. Just hoping it works when the real stuff begins

 

[ScrappyDo]

It's not as though he wasnt given the opportunity

He just couldn't perform enough to keep his spot in the back 6

We have better options to play that role

Seems like the right move for him and the club

That argument will be settled over the next few years.

Personally I'd prefer Longy had stayed but Hotton was a good get so it's ok for now.

 

[plugger66]

Same as the ones who think 2018 Tom Hickey in RWB is the same as 2022 Tom Hickey in R&W.

I’m sure you said you knew longer so I’d expect you to stick up for him. Not sure I think hickey is the same player but he is bloody close. Like now back then he suited modern footy. Longer didn’t. Well not unless people rate hitting a ball that more often then not doesn’t achieve anything.

 

[plugger66]

It's not as though he wasnt given the opportunity

He just couldn't perform enough to keep his spot in the back 6

We have better options to play that role

Seems like the right move for him and the club

Exactly. And it’s rather funny when he played half back and struggled people on here said forward was his best spot. Then when played forward and struggled back was his best spot. The guy got plenty of chances at both positions. And really took till his last game to really show a lot.

 

[pebblesofsand]

Just on "bombing it long" - we will continue to do it just like every other club in the league does it when they are under pressure coming out of the centre.

My hope is that this year (unlike the past few years), when we do "bomb it long" we do it quickly and not after we'd fluffed around on the wing for 10 seconds and given every defender a chance to fold back inside 50 and outnumber our forwards.

I don't really care which player (Gresh, Jones, Ross or who ever) delivers the mongrel floating punt inside 50 just as long as they've done it quickly.

 

[Fehring]

He played the whole of 2020 as a defender and then the first chunk of 2021 as well before eventually being dropped due to poor form

In the end he was given every opportunity to show he had what it takes to be a defender but it couldn't cement his spot

Unfortunately for him that meant he was used as a Mr fix it it different areas, but not after he wasn't given a decent opportunity first

He had a great year in 2020, but was suspended three times I think, including in the first final (he was huge, and we really missed him in the second final). In 2020, you could see opposition forwards get the ball and think "Where's Ben Long?". But he really struggled in 2021, and to me it looked clear that he was trying to curb his aggression to avoid suspension, and as a result just looked lost. He stopped playing on instinct. Late in 2022 he seemed to finally be getting the balance of aggression and restraint into his game. If he can find that recipe, he could be a very, very good player for GC.

 

[Remboy]

Owens reckons he plays like Nat Fyfe

Nah, wrong way round. Fyfe plays like Owens.

 

[saintmike65]

This whole “poor skills” thing is way overblown IMO.

Our entire backline are good kicks.

Sincs
Wangmil
Coffield
Webster
Paton
Wilkie
Battle
Howard

Not one there that I would remotely consider to be a “poor kick”.

Then on the wings we’ve got Hill, who’s generally considered one of the better kicks in the comp (albeit capable of random stinker days) and Wood, who’s generally extremely clean by foot. D-Mac not as good, but vastly improved on his early days with us, and generally sticks to his kicking strength (which is kicking it long- he’s always been fine at that). His kicking is a non-issue these days IMO and I was extremely critical of it initially (on his short passes, which he missed time after time).

Then up forward we’ve got Billings, who’s generally a good to very good kick, Butler, who’s a perfectly fine kick, while Max and Skunk are both excellent field kicks, as is Sharman. Hayes was fine from memory. Higgo is a garbage set shot, but I don’t remember him butchering too many field kicks. Owens unfortunately looks to be a very ordinary kick, but hopefully he’ll improve that with work.

Then in the midfield we’ve got Steele, who’s a very solid kick on both feet, while Crouch is capable of both pretty piercing passes and the odd shank, but is generally about what you’d expect from an “extractor type”. I’ve been surprised at how much penetration he can get with his passes, for a guy who had a pretty average kicking rep. A lot of that may have been due to his groin issues, as he had a reputation as being a good kick when drafted.

While Roma is one of the best kicks you’d see for someone playing in the ruck full time.

Then there’s Jones, who is one of those types who I think some completely ignore all the good or perfectly fine kicks he does, and just focus on the odd ones he butchers. He can have his bad days by foot for sure, but he’s also had numerous days where his DE was extremely high for someone playing in the guts, where he hit target after target, and didn’t butcher any kicks. Very few guys who run that fast never butcher kicks.

Then there’s Hunter Clark, who is as dual-sided as almost anyone in the comp, which gives him an advantage over most (being able to go either side). He can definitely butcher kicks, but can also do terrific passes. Especially on his non-dominant foot, relative to the rest of the comp. Hopefully he’ll become more consistent on his right if he gets a good run with his body and his confidence right up.

Seb can obviously butcher kicks, but he’s another one who can also deliver it lace-out, if he slows down enough when running.

Then it’s on to Gresh. He’s another one whose poor kicking gets overblown, IMO.

For starters, like Clark, he’s very dual-sided, which is an advantage he has over most. Not many in the comp these days are as capable of hitting a guy lace-out on their opposite foot as Gresh is, so that’s a leg-up he has on most of the comp. He’s also more creative than most with his kicking, which is another advantage. Another thing he does really well is that if he does happen to butcher a short pass, he’s extremely quick to follow it up and put pressure on the opponent who’s gathered his poor kick. That can mitigate a lot of the damage. So they are three positives that put his kicking in the plus column relative to the rest of the comp.

Now on to the bad, he can definitely butcher kicks, and he loves the long-bomb across the body, but overall I strongly believe that the criticism of his kicking in general is overblown. For starters, for the first three points I mentioned, which he has over most, but also for the reasons I went into in detail in this post on the main board a few months ago. The numbers for him being this terrible kick just aren’t there. Especially for turnovers, where he averaged just 4 per game. Putting him 87th in the league, and almost half of the whopping 7.8 Bailey Smith was going at.

Post in thread 'St Kilda in no mans land'
Roast - St Kilda in no mans land

You make some really good points, the only thing about your summation that you don’t factor in is poor decision making, which has been an issue with numerous players.
Some players simply bite off too much with their kicks which result in turnovers.
Webster and Howard have butchered plenty of kicks out of defensive 50.
Hill also gets a bit too cute with some of his kicking, Ross tends to send half floating helicopter kicks into forward 50.
Jones tends to back pedal or run around in circles, which totally confuses his teammates!
The problem has been that players have lacked accountability since the boss left..not so now he’s back!!

 

[aussierulesrules]

You make some really good points, the only thing about your summation that you don’t factor in is poor decision making, which has been an issue with numerous players.
Some players simply bite off too much with their kicks which result in turnovers.
Webster and Howard have butchered plenty of kicks out of defensive 50.
Hill also gets a bit too cute with some of his kicking, Ross tends to send half floating helicopter kicks into forward 50.
Jones tends to back pedal or run around in circles, which totally confuses his teammates!
The problem has been that players have lacked accountability since the boss left..not so now he’s back!!

Fair call. A lot of that poor decision-making might be due to how they’ve been coached though. Not backing themselves, 2nd-guessing themselves, etc.

It sounds like this preseason it’s been drilled into them to take the first option and not overthink things, and just move it on quickly, and that could make a big difference to skill execution.

The more time you have to think about things the more time there is for doubt and negative thoughts to enter you mind. Whereas if you’re being coached to just pull the trigger, and not be afraid of making a mistake, it can really free you up mentally.

 

[bird_man]

He had a great year in 2020, but was suspended three times I think, including in the first final (he was huge, and we really missed him in the second final). In 2020, you could see opposition forwards get the ball and think "Where's Ben Long?". But he really struggled in 2021, and to me it looked clear that he was trying to curb his aggression to avoid suspension, and as a result just looked lost. He stopped playing on instinct. Late in 2022 he seemed to finally be getting the balance of aggression and restraint into his game. If he can find that recipe, he could be a very, very good player for GC.

I don’t think he had a great year.

He did some good things and showed presence with his attack on the footy but it always felt like he just wasn’t doing enough to me

 

[SteeleSaints]

Fair call. A lot of that poor decision-making might be due to how they’ve been coached though. Not backing themselves, 2nd-guessing themselves, etc.

It sounds like this preseason it’s been drilled into them to take the first option and not overthink things, and just move it on quickly, and that could make a big difference to skill execution.

The more time you have to think about things the more time there is for doubt and negative thoughts to enter you mind. Whereas if you’re being coached to just pull the trigger, and not be afraid of making a mistake, it can really free you up mentally.

Totally agree.

The other thing is working in channels so players like Jones, Gresham and Ross recieve the ball when they are travelling face on to where they want deliver it.

Have them negate their weaknesses which good structure rings.

 

[bird_man]

That argument will be settled over the next few years.

Personally I'd prefer Longy had stayed but Hotton was a good get so it's ok for now.

Would you have Long in our best 22 if everyone were fit?

He said he wants to play defence but I just can’t see where he fits with Howard, Battle, Wilkie, Sinclair, Coffield, Paton, Webster

And that’s without mentioning Clark who we are not sure where he will play, Stocker and NWM who is said to get time off half back