Autopsy 2023 Rd 11 It's Groundhog Day ... again

[SkyhorseTamer]

Does it matter? Cripps learnt how to blame everyone else from the guys before him. Murphy. Gibbs.

Do you think Cripps backs coaches in? Was all in on The Teague Train. Was the first one off. Jungle drums have a similar feel now.

The culture of this club has become ‘blame everyone else’. That’s what we induct newcomers with. They learn it. Adopt it. Repeat it.

Why don’t you ever hear Cripps say “look I’m totally out of form. I need a big lift.” Always this ‘we’ s*t. ‘We’ doesn’t kick the ****** football.

Learn YOUR role. DO your role. Accept whether you’re doing your role. Stay in your ******* Lane.

“My role as Captain is to make sure each player around me has properly absorbed THEIR role. That they ACCEPT that role. That they give feedback to the line coach if they don’t think they can fulfill that role. They show personal responsibility. That if I hear they’re getting wasted on a Saturday night way too often that I step in and tell them to knock it the * off. But above all else, my role as Captain is to lead by example. And that example is playing MY role. Doing the job the coach asks of me on field. I haven’t been doing THAT but I am all out going to fix that.”

Stop hiding behind WE. If it’s meant to be then it’s up to ME.

Yep! Beauty is the Carlton footy department fosters this attitude with all its empowering and wrapping of arms

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

I knew I wasn't wrong. I just didn't recall the specifics. His last few games before the end of the Bolton and Teague years were white-flagging on the field and (I'm guessing with some confidence), white-anting off the field

I would trade him in a heart beat...he plays for himself, does not sacrifice his game for the team and ultimately is causing more problems off the field than what he provides on field

Senator Numero Uno

I was at the GWS game where it happened in Sydney. Was even in the sheds before and sometime after -> Cripps stood in the centre square ignoring the game arguing with a runner. Then when the runner left he stayed stationary with his arms out directed at the coach - completely ignoring the ball and ball carrier fly past him multiple times.

windows1 agree - but this is were a strong coach and admin make the hard calls, particularly at the selection table. Been screaming for our leaders to be dropped for a month. If Voss doesn’t have the support behind him to make these calls, then he goes down swinging and he shows to us all, where the issues lie.

I wouldn’t do it with Charlie, but I’d like to try Saad in the midfield with Doc and Boyd on the HBFs.

Saad knows how to win the ball in close, has a great burst of speed/run and a good disposal.

papley shredded us doing the same. Worth a go, but when Kennedy isn't even getting a singular centre bounce attendance (seriously 0) i doubt it's gonna happen. Seriously why the **** is Kennedy not getting cbas and when the 'a team' in there is getting pantsed by a part time midfielder - papley.

We just haven't recruited enough 'hungry' players, who actually want to kick goals.

I was having a similar thought and now's a good enough time to leave it on the board to see if other intelligent humans will correct me or agree - not just with regards to goal kicking though in a more general scope - did we recruit too many talent 'first' players? We had so much draft capital that we could go hard with the fancier types. Did we not get enough 'work hard no talent' types like Owies to balance that out? One of the best cricket teams of all time was lead by a work hard over talent type in S Waugh - Cripps is just better than his opponents due to rare measurables, Charlie is talent first, McKay is talent first, weits is talent first, McGovern is talent first etc etc. Those work hard first types presumably help coaches set standards as they consistently week in week out show off how hard they train - not sure through the rebuild we grabbed enough of them. It was 'you have talent just wait it'll happen'. Anyway is just a theory

 

[JustaBattler]

Wanting something doesn’t mean u get it.
I’d rather see him adapt a plan to start to achieve it, then just wanting something really badly

This is the same attitude expressed about Ratten before he was knifed - "Carlton has a top4 list that is being constrained by the coach's inabilities and dumbness blah blah blah - except in your case you add the sidenote- if Dow was playing everything would be much better..


Got news for you matey - Voss isnt on the field delivering a 30% conversion rate or a disposable efficiency at bottom 4 level or missed tackles, shrugged tackles in teh forward lines...or blind bom,bs to 3 on one's or Harry McKay - mich as you'd like to think it..

bottom line is Carlton has a middling list and to many overpaid players who arent earnign anywhere near the coin they are on - none of that is on Voss he inherited that shyte

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

This is the same attitude expressed about Ratten before he was knifed - "Carlton has a top4 list that is being constrained by the coach's inabilities and dumbness blah blah blah - except in your case you add the sidenote- if Dow was playing everything would be much better..


Got news for you matey - Voss isnt on the field delivering a 30% conversion rate or a disposable efficiency at bottom 4 level or missed tackles, shrugged tackles in teh forward lines...or blind bom,bs to 3 on one's or Harry McKay - mich as you'd like to think it..

bottom line is Carlton has a middling list and to many overpaid players who arent earnign anywhere near the coin they are on - none of that is on Voss he inherited that shyte

Maybe Voss inherited players with poor work ethic but why's it not improved? Execution is a reflection of training standards attitude etc etc. So either the players just don't listen to Voss at training or he doesn't drive standards high enough during drills - or his assistants don't. I don't know the structure of training sessions but I assume Voss is overseeing most of them.

If you have aplayer attitude problem it's still somewhat on the coach and organisation to fix that. Yeah it's a player attitude problem but him and his team have gotta do something more than this. Maybe the shite performances are a result of a power battle between the two groups atm. Who knows - if so hopefully.Voss wins out. But hearing shite like McKay will eventually settle on his routine and technique and we'll wrap our arms around him until then from Voss sounds like he's just a softie letting the players run the joint.

I've seen many shite easy beat teams over my time in the sport playing and coaching who turn it around when they're taught to enjoy the hard work at training and build that hard work all that matters attitude.

Anyway - it's down to Voss and his team and the player leaders to fix it. Some old school 2am dune sprints with a you all finish properly or no one does attitude.... Might be time to remind players they aren't a protected species - someone's got to

 

[morningbrown]

I was at the GWS game where it happened in Sydney. Was even in the sheds before and sometime after -> Cripps stood in the centre square ignoring the game arguing with a runner. Then when the runner left he stayed stationary with his arms out directed at the coach - completely ignoring the ball and ball carrier fly past him multiple times.



papley shredded us doing the same. Worth a go, but when Kennedy isn't even getting a singular centre bounce attendance (seriously 0) i doubt it's gonna happen. Seriously why the * is Kennedy not getting cbas and when the 'a team' in there is getting pantsed by a part time midfielder - papley.

I was having a similar thought and now's a good enough time to leave it on the board to see if other intelligent humans will correct me or agree - not just with regards to goal kicking though in a more general scope - did we recruit too many talent 'first' players? We had so much draft capital that we could go hard with the fancier types. Did we not get enough 'work hard no talent' types like Owies to balance that out? One of the best cricket teams of all time was lead by a work hard over talent type in S Waugh - Cripps is just better than his opponents due to rare measurables, Charlie is talent first, McKay is talent first, weits is talent first, McGovern is talent first etc etc. Those work hard first types presumably help coaches set standards as they consistently week in week out show off how hard they train - not sure through the rebuild we grabbed enough of them. It was 'you have talent just wait it'll happen'. Anyway is just a theory

Completely agree with the talent first theory. We're a team of hollywood players. Cotts, Owies, JSOS and Pitto the only ones off the top of my head that I would say are hunger first, talent second.

 

[AndyWalkersGirl]

Completely agree with the talent first theory. We're a team of hollywood players. Cotts, Owies, JSOS and Pitto the only ones off the top of my head that I would say are hunger first, talent second.

I'd add Cowen and Hollands, they're hard and hungry for it. Ed for all his knockers, never gives up.

 

[HarryFlashman]

This is the same attitude expressed about Ratten before he was knifed - "Carlton has a top4 list that is being constrained by the coach's inabilities and dumbness blah blah blah - except in your case you add the sidenote- if Dow was playing everything would be much better..


Got news for you matey - Voss isnt on the field delivering a 30% conversion rate or a disposable efficiency at bottom 4 level or missed tackles, shrugged tackles in teh forward lines...or blind bom,bs to 3 on one's or Harry McKay - mich as you'd like to think it..

bottom line is Carlton has a middling list and to many overpaid players who arent earnign anywhere near the coin they are on - none of that is on Voss he inherited that shyte

your 100% right- Voss is awesome, our game plan/style is great, our players look up & about, the positional changes are working a treat & bombing it long will start to bare fruit shortly & your Fab 5 have been tearing it up it’s all good we just can’t kick straight & make to many errors- that’s the only problem

 

[JustaBattler]

Maybe Voss inherited players with poor work ethic but why's it not improved? Execution is a reflection of training standards attitude etc etc. So either the players just don't listen to Voss at training or he doesn't drive standards high enough during drills - or his assistants don't. I don't know the structure of training sessions but I assume Voss is overseeing most of them.

If you have aplayer attitude problem it's still somewhat on the coach and organisation to fix that. Yeah it's a player attitude problem but him and his team have gotta do something more than this. Maybe the shite performances are a result of a power battle between the two groups atm. Who knows - if so hopefully.Voss wins out. But hearing shite like McKay will eventually settle on his routine and technique and we'll wrap our arms around him until then from Voss sounds like he's just a softie letting the players run the joint.

I've seen many shite easy beat teams over my time in the sport playing and coaching who turn it around when they're taught to enjoy the hard work at training and build that hard work all that matters attitude.

Anyway - it's down to Voss and his team and the player leaders to fix it. Some old school 2am dune sprints with a you all finish properly or no one does attitude.... Might be time to remind players they aren't a protected species - someone's got to

You want the coach to fix the attitude and performance of your best-paid players? Players he didn't recruit, develop, players who have seen three coaches get the chop at Carlton? Really.....

I've got a better idea ...and i bet Cokk thinks the same...he described Carlton salary cap as being top heavy -- I think some of the top can be moved on...

 

[Coops93]

One positive out of all this... We're still in the race for a trophy

The Harley Reid Cup!

 

[JustaBattler]

your 100% right- Voss is awesome, our game plan/style is great, our players look up & about, the positional changes are working a treat & bombing it long will start to bare fruit shortly & your Fab 5 have been tearing it up it’s all good we just can’t kick straight & make to many errors- that’s the only problem

NO mate - the players YOU think are awesome are actually just BOG ORDINARY -dont rewrite your own narrative ..

 

[HarryFlashman]

This is the same attitude expressed about Ratten before he was knifed - "Carlton has a top4 list that is being constrained by the coach's inabilities and dumbness blah blah blah - except in your case you add the sidenote- if Dow was playing everything would be much better..


Got news for you matey - Voss isnt on the field delivering a 30% conversion rate or a disposable efficiency at bottom 4 level or missed tackles, shrugged tackles in teh forward lines...or blind bom,bs to 3 on one's or Harry McKay - mich as you'd like to think it..

bottom line is Carlton has a middling list and to many overpaid players who arent earnign anywhere near the coin they are on - none of that is on Voss he inherited that shyte

& Dow should never ever play again, doesn’t matter what he does at VFL level, he can’t have possibly improved at all.
100% certainty that he couldn’t bring something different or be useful in anyway

 

[HarryFlashman]

NO mate - the players YOU think are awesome are actually just BOG ORDINARY -dont rewrite your own narrative ..

I’ll leave the narrative writing to u, you’re doing a great job of it.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

You want the coach to fix the attitude and performance of your best-paid players? Players he didn't recruit, develop, players who have seen three coaches get the chop at Carlton? Really.....

I've got a better idea ...and i bet Cokk thinks the same...he described Carlton salary cap as being top heavy -- I think some of the top can be moved on...

New lease on life is a common sports 'cliche' for older over paid stars who 'find it' again under a new coach. So yeah it's plausible.

Would you invest in Carlton if they were a listed company? Using Buffet think you'd focus on management as the crux of company performance not the persons employed by management. I don't think our management passes the test. Easy to blame what you can see and what you can see deserves plenty but in no business in the world do management get away with bad results by blaming their employees. Well, only shitty companies do aka Dying giants or over funded doomed faulty start ups.

 

[out of harmes' way]

People calling: to trade him, finish bottom 4, and get a decent pick or two are delusional. We've had more number 1 hits/picks than the Beatles. Look where that's got us. The fish rots from the head. It's the CULTURE! We've had a loser mentality for 20 years and a board that's fostered it. We were a ruthless, innovative football club and players drove success. We are now imitators and try to poach people- Cook ( well past his use-by date) Russell (the soft tissue injury master) etc. We have been broken and totally rudderless for years. The BOARD makes the appointments. I like, many others, are over this crap!

 

[thylacine60]

Naww I’ve missed you. Welcome back.

you're very welcome - you certainly can't be blamed for unrealistic suggestions smacking of desperation and short-sightedness - pretty much everyone here has advice for the club in one form or another and there's not much left to work with - we'll be fine......

 

[Del9Sep24]

Voss was the alpha meathead leader in the field of battle for one of the greatest teams ever. He was never the brains inside the coaches box.

Now we put the meat head warrior in the brains position and wonder why it doesn’t work.

The theory of getting quality strategic coaches around him is also ridiculous. Imagine being an assistant trying to get your ideas through the stubbornness and ego of Voss. They produce great insights and logic to Voss with perfect reasoning only to be followed by.. “KeNedy to hAlf BaCk”. Ever worked under someone who just has no idea? They can’t be reasoned with and all you can do is go along with it and shake your head in silence. Or, risk your paycheck. He didn’t get the nickname crazy vossy as a coach for nothing.

If the club somehow gets away with blowing up the list rather than blowing up where the real problems are in the club then we are in a world of pain for many more years to come.

 

[Blue since 72]

Put myself through a replay and have so far watched the first half.

Weiters was right in his post game interview, apart from the poor set shot kicking the team was largely playing well enough. Problem is the team is currently mentally fragile and the inability of the forwards to create score board pressure had a ripple effect through the team.

Normally you would expect to counter in the second quarter and work your way back in but with the rest of the comp knowing this about Carlton and keeping the foot on the throat the team's head space goes to water and we grind out another loss.

This is the time for Ash Hansen to show us what he's made of and get this forward line working again and if players like Harry are too stubborn to ask for help, get it for him anyway. There are plenty of x players who could assist.

It also seems H's problems are starting to spread wider and I can tell you if you're one of the other 23 players watching set shot after set shot miss it really does become hard work mentally to keep trying to go after it for what amounts to no result.

This current group of nice players needs to be confident to play well and the coaches/club need to be sure they are doing everything they can to get this mob back into a positive mind set.

It's gone past moving magnets around when decision making and skill execution literally across the board has dropped way below acceptable standard because right now we're seeing shit that was nowhere near this bad last year.

 

[Magruder]

Put myself through a replay and have so far watched the first half.

Weiters was right in his post game interview, apart from the poor set shot kicking the team was largely playing well enough. Problem is the team is currently mentally fragile and the inability of the forwards to create score board pressure had a ripple effect through the team.

Normally you would expect to counter in the second quarter and work your way back in but with the rest of the comp knowing this about Carlton and keeping the foot on the throat the team's head space goes to water and we grind out another loss.

This is the time for Ash Hansen to show us what he's made of and get this forward line working again and if players like Harry are too stubborn to ask for help, get it for him anyway. There are plenty of x players who could assist.

It also seems H's problems are starting to spread wider and I can tell you if you're one of the other 23 players watching set shot after set shot miss it really does become hard work mentally to keep trying to go after it for what amounts to no result.

This current group of nice players needs to be confident to play well and the coaches/club need to be sure they are doing everything they can to get this mob back into a positive mind set.

It's gone past moving magnets around when decision making and skill execution literally across the board has dropped way below acceptable standard because right now we're seeing s**t that was nowhere near this bad last year.

It's mainly decision making...

We burn too many players in good positions maybe 20 metres away from the stoppage.

We cost ourselves at least 8-10 good scoring opportunities per game by ignoring the unmanned bloke 65m out who could either close to 40m and shoot or is under no pressure and could well find a further unmarked blue around that 30-40 m out.

Fix this and we probably score 20-30 points more per game and the team defence suddenly looks better etc... skills suddenly look crisper, ferocity at the contest increases...

and campaigners suddenly don't laugh at us publicly...

 

[Kruezing]

It's mainly decision making...

We burn too many players in good positions maybe 20 metres away from the stoppage.

We cost ourselves at least 8-10 good scoring opportunities per game by ignoring the unmanned bloke 65m out who could either close to 40m and shoot or is under no pressure and could well find a further unmarked blue around that 30-40 m out.

Fix this and we probably score 20-30 points more per game and the team defence suddenly looks better etc... skills suddenly look crisper, ferocity at the contest increases...

and campaigners suddenly don't laugh at us publicly...

This is definitely part of the problem … I still believe that this group has lost all confidence and belief in themselves since last season’s capitulation … they need a spark from somewhere to change their mindset …

 

[Magruder]

This is definitely part of the problem … I still believe that this group has lost all confidence and belief in themselves since last season’s capitulation … they need a spark from somewhere to change their mindset …

yup... but confidence can be recovered.

 

[The Bighouse]

This is definitely part of the problem … I still believe that this group has lost all confidence and belief in themselves since last season’s capitulation … they need a spark from somewhere to change their mindset …

Will the leaders please stand up…please stand up.

 

[Blue since 72]

It's mainly decision making...

We burn too many players in good positions maybe 20 metres away from the stoppage.

We cost ourselves at least 8-10 good scoring opportunities per game by ignoring the unmanned bloke 65m out who could either close to 40m and shoot or is under no pressure and could well find a further unmarked blue around that 30-40 m out.

Fix this and we probably score 20-30 points more per game and the team defence suddenly looks better etc... skills suddenly look crisper, ferocity at the contest increases...

and campaigners suddenly don't laugh at us publicly...

Agree it's a big issue but (and I assume the coaches are) I'd be deep diving into why because the players are currently plumbing new depths of shitness in this part of their game.

I haven't seen it this bad from so many players before so something's definitely up. Mathews says using expectation as a reason is hogwash but who knows, I think we can agree mental fragility is playing a part and I'd hazard a guess that Lee Mathews probably knows very little about that.

In Harry's case his fragile mindset is going hand in hand with flawed technique, Lloyd is right on that score. That vision of the out of bounds kick Harry is facing where the ball went and trying to redirect the ball with a swinging leg across the body, about as flawed as you could get going for a set shot.

Line yourself up with hips and shoulders facing the goals and a straight leg coming through with the foot pointing at the target and to Lloyds point stop swinging the ball around so much on your run up. The guy has been fine in the past and should get it back but right now he has the yips and it starts out as a between the ears thing, then you go searching for solutions by altering technique and before you know it you're well down the rabbit hole.

Harry needs to go back to basic kicking the footy technique but the bigger issue is he needs to find strategies to block out the fact he's in a real game and missing matters.

 

[thylacine60]

It's mainly decision making...

We burn too many players in good positions maybe 20 metres away from the stoppage.

We cost ourselves at least 8-10 good scoring opportunities per game by ignoring the unmanned bloke 65m out who could either close to 40m and shoot or is under no pressure and could well find a further unmarked blue around that 30-40 m out.

Fix this and we probably score 20-30 points more per game and the team defence suddenly looks better etc... skills suddenly look crisper, ferocity at the contest increases...

and campaigners suddenly don't laugh at us publicly...

second guessing, lack of confidence, buying into the hatred from own "supporters", not trusting each other, not going with first instinct, imposter syndrome

 

[Magruder]

second guessing, lack of confidence, buying into the hatred from own "supporters", not trusting each other, not going with first instinct, imposter syndrome

all of that, together with a sense that if they go the 20m option and it doesn't work what are the consequences? It feels safer to dump it long...

 

[thylacine60]

all of that, together with a sense that if they go the 20m option and it doesn't work what are the consequences? It feels safer to dump it long...

it's the anti-sps rule.........