Autopsy 2023 Rd 8 Mediocre Blues gone after Quarter time

[Thrawn]

If we need everything else to be amazing for our captain to get out of a jog then what's the ******* point though? It'd be nice if he wasn't such a liability when he's not playing well that so it didn't completely kill us. It was Docherty's 150th and he was disgraceful. God forbid that he at least play for others when he is getting beaten too.

Tired of this Carlton mentality that "x" player is untouchable when we would be better off with a more balanced side in general. We got coleman medallists who fail to kick 30 metres to guarantee finals for us. We got all these big names who fail to show up when the opposition decide to put any semblance of pressure on them. Cripps won a brownlow under Voss last year but we still choked game after game to miss the finals after being 8-2. Voss tries to change things up so the side is less wishy washy and Cripps is still coasting when he doesn't get a free run at the ball. I don't envy any coach who has to deal with such pea heartedness. Sure Cripps isn't the only issue but as captain he's set the tone for how soft we are at the moment.

I think Carlton be better off trying to trade out big name passengers for a better balanced list in general. Instead of repeating history by hoping they become less fragile or unaccountable this late into the game.

No, we just need a better system in place to help him stop getting grappled by 2 to 3 opposition players.

This is the first time I've seen anyone here call Cripps a peaheart, bet you weren't saying that in Round 23 when he pretty much tore Collingwood to shreds (and was denied a certain goal because a Collingwood player played dominos with JSOS). Fact is that he's carried the team far more often than not, even tried to with a broken back. He didn't have to, he could've sat out and recouped - if there's any phrase which to describe him, it's not being a pea-heart. So stop with the bollocks.

If you want to trade him away, what do you actually want to get for him? And what guarantee is there that they won't turn to shit because the systems put in place are inadequate to either use their strengths, or make them a better player? We have players in the side who we know are much better kick, so it's more than just "oh he's just having a jog".

Reckon you'll disappear once he plays better again.

 

[windows1]

After 20 sh1t years, 8th year into a dramatic rebuild(including unprecedented high draft picks), fresh CEO and president...won't be waiting another 4 years to see if Voss is any good.
This year, we are on a downward trajectory(with an improved playing list that have lost their abilities to kick and run???, and less injuries), while other rebuilding clubs (Crows, Saints, Pies) are finals bound.
What is an acceptable result for this season in most supporters views?

Finals

 

[windows1]

I've defended Voss and will continue to do so for most accusations thrown his way.

However, as many of the greatest coaches of modern sports (the major sports in the US and global professional Football) agree on throughout their autobiographies the most important aspect of a coach/manager in the modern game is to drive the players from a psychological and motivation perspective.

Voss is now the third (in a few cases forth) head coach that has struggled mightily with getting this group to play at an acceptable level of want.

They lack hunger and drive for the competition. They are mentally weak and fragile. Their efforts are not up to the standard required nearly often enough.

I've learned enough about sports throughout my life that you either have it or you don't. It starts with your on field leadership group setting the acceptable standards and communicating that to the other players on the team. This is what separates blokes like Joel Selwood from the rest.

Cripps is great when his actions are that example. Docherty is the gutsiest bloke in the competition. Even so we lack the general, the campaigner that will shoulder the on field responsibility of uniting these players who is essentially an extension of the coach.

Until we get one or until someone stands up and takes on that role we will continue to tread water.

This team needs a leader or leaders who believes in Voss enough to pull this team into line to execute his vision. Bolts, Teague and now Voss haven't had that.

Last night Brisbane had that in numbers. They won last night because of Faganism. It's more than a media term

You’ve written a lot of great posts. This in my view is your best Wicks.

Bravo.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

The only idiots are the ones who keep defending this garage performing club.

Enough is enough. The fan bases loyalty has been taken for granted and taken advantage of for far too long now.

Cripps after the game sums up perfectly the disconnect between the club and the fans.

Off with you so then mate. There is seventeen other clubs for you to choose from after all.

 

[MrsEddieBetts]

I'm of a mind to believe you, as we have had some polite exchanges in the past. I wondered where the 'girlfriend' insult came from, and was very surprised.
I suggest we need to refer this exchange to the mods and see if they can find out what happened. I too looked for the post to report it, but it had been deleted.
If you know how to get this to the Mods attention, please do so. If not I will make the effort.

I've brought it to the attention of admin, they'll have a look into it and let me know what's gone on

 

[lilJeffyG]

Even the best C.E.O, in the last 20 years can't get this club to function correctly. If you want your legacy to be tainted, just come to Carlton
I dare say Cook will be wondering if he made the right decision to come now. Or maybe like the rest of the club, he took it on, to top up his super for a couple of years before retirement.

 

[Sinjin Smith]

I just read in the age that Brissie got 13 of their 15 goals through Carlton's turnover's. That is just disgraceful!! How can these players be so poorly skilled? I'm not on the sack Voss bandwagon yet (though I now have serious reservations about him) but what are they doing in training? Surely they must have drills that put the players in contested pressure situations and drill them to find an effective way out.

More possessions, more contested possessions, more marks, same inside 50's yet a 4 goals loss which would have been more if not for some junk time goals once the pressure was off.

So is it gameplan? Is it skill level? It cant be hunger as they are getting to the ball first, they just seem to have no idea what do with it once they have it. Something's got to give.

 

[lilJeffyG]

I just read in the age that Brissie got 13 of their 15 goals through Carlton's turnover's. That is just disgraceful!! How can these players be so poorly skilled? I'm not on the sack Voss bandwagon yet (though I now have serious reservations about him) but what are they doing in training? Surely they must have drills that put the players in contested pressure situations and drill them to find an effective way out.

More possessions, more contested possessions, more marks, same inside 50's yet a 4 goals loss which would have been more if not for some junk time goals once the pressure was off.

So is it gameplan? Is it skill level? It cant be hunger as they are getting to the ball first, they just seem to have no idea what do with it once they have it. Something's got to give.

Yes, yes. I know it was against witches hats, but against west coast the forward line was open and we were hitting lead up targets in the forward 50. But doing that for 2 weeks im a row is to mentally demanding for this group. Train one thing per week, implement that on game day, but forget what was trained 2 weeks or further back.

 

[BlueBayou]

I've brought it to the attention of admin, they'll have a look into it and let me know what's gone on

Thanks Mebby

 

[Coona Blues]

I've defended Voss and will continue to do so for most accusations thrown his way.

However, as many of the greatest coaches of modern sports (the major sports in the US and global professional Football) agree on throughout their autobiographies the most important aspect of a coach/manager in the modern game is to drive the players from a psychological and motivation perspective.

Voss is now the third (in a few cases forth) head coach that has struggled mightily with getting this group to play at an acceptable level of want.

They lack hunger and drive for the competition. They are mentally weak and fragile. Their efforts are not up to the standard required nearly often enough.

I've learned enough about sports throughout my life that you either have it or you don't. It starts with your on field leadership group setting the acceptable standards and communicating that to the other players on the team. This is what separates blokes like Joel Selwood from the rest.

Cripps is great when his actions are that example. Docherty is the gutsiest bloke in the competition. Even so we lack the general, the campaigner that will shoulder the on field responsibility of uniting these players who is essentially an extension of the coach.

Until we get one or until someone stands up and takes on that role we will continue to tread water.

This team needs a leader or leaders who believes in Voss enough to pull this team into line to execute his vision. Bolts, Teague and now Voss haven't had that.

Last night Brisbane had that in numbers. They won last night because of Faganism. It's more than a media term

Love it Wick

Ageist old fart here everyone. (Edit: Apologies turned in to a long winded rant, but what the hell, here to share)

I absolutely cringe in this plastic world with the institutions teaching “LEADERSHIP”.

Certain aspects of leadership can indeed be taught, but the real essence of leadership is innate. No amount of courses designed to enable those born with financial privilege to be “leaders” can substitute for those born to positively influence others.

Fed up with “over the journey I have learned” or “player X taught me that and now I…” Selwood was hailed a leader, the second he ran out for the Cats. Hodge stepped above Mitchell at the Hawks during their journey because it was his natural make up (and Mitchell was/is a leader), Voss, Kirk, we can all pull up names through the history of the game. Big Nick, Sticks, Jezza, Fitzpatrick.

We have had plenty of second and even third tier leaders in recent times. I rate Judd second tier, led by actions pushed standards to a degree, but was most concerned with his own standards. Ratten and McKay had some genuine leadership, but nit the complete package. Whitnall a tough competitor who gave his all game day, preparation not so much. Kouta was a great player but an average leader. The less I say about Marc Murphy the better.

Now we have Crippa, after a short period with Doc as co-captain. Docherty for mine ticks most of the leadership boxes, but has had to take a step back to deal with life issues and challenges. He is undoubtedly the most natural mature leader we have. Crippa is immensely popular with the “boys”, but does not tick all of the leadership boxes. He is not a 100% diehard type. He has moments of pure effort and commitment, but has, for mine, been seduced by the press and self image to want to be the breakaway marquee type midfielder. He would play and most definitely lead better if he returned to the selfless extractor days when he was happy to get first possession and dish to the outside boys. Leadership is driving or doing the hard yards, unconditionally, every time. If challenged or even beaten, a leader finds a way to contribute, even if he becomes a decoy. A leader rarely, if ever, sooks.

I don’t believe Crippa is the biggest problem in our leadership group. I give you Jacob Weitering. I cringed back in the day when the Weiterbot super human persona was created by supporters. He repeated Bolton’s platitudes, often word for word and was given credit for his intellect and leadership. He is a contrived leader. The “great” footage of him miked up barking instructions, from my observations is counter productive. Lewis Young was at his best when Weiters was injured. Young stepped up and admirably did the job on the oppo’s best forward. Instincts were good. Weiters stifles Young and many of his team mates. He micro manages and directs them as best suits him. While best as an interceptor, he demands responsibility for the oppo’s best, often when others are better suited. Match day threads have genuine hard working defenders like Young and Kemp (even Plow) castigated for poor positioning when they are caught between instincts and one man’s instruction. Weitering is a big component of the defence, but it notionally does not revolve around his preferred positioning. He is far from selfless and often throws mates under the bus opting for his chosen “switch” or choosing not to.

Our forward line desperately needs a leader to orchestrate our group of individuals. I was heartened to see Doc redeployed up there for a portion of Friday’s game. I believe little Durdin has the smarts and persona to become the leader up there. Perhaps not for a couple of years while developing, but would love to see Voss modify the structures to allow him to spend more time in the actual forward half, rather than too often covering our lazy mids up the ground. Forwards need to work up the ground more than ever before, but I think ours are being asked for a little too much at times.

We have too many young blokes who often have trouble flicking the switch from the recreation room to the football field. It is great being mates off field, but they need to be invested in each other on the ground. Historically footy teams are made up of a variety of personalities and types. We seem to have a policy demanding inclusion in leisure activities. Sick of hearing of the various levels of their bloody gaming as some sort of valued skill. I was a square peg in a round hole socially in most of my teams off field, but totally invested on the field in my yahoo team mates. They need to come together on field, much more than they do off.

We have seen all the guff about Geelong doing less training and meeting during the week, and so less time socialising in each other’s pockets, to allow their mature group to involve themselves in real life. On the surface, this is catering to their ages and family life. In reality it is focussing their interaction on the football ground. The basis of their team is football, and is nit blurred by excessive time filling activities. I think many of the youngsters lose themselves in the club, perhaps more so than other clubs who have had a greater spread of ages on the list. Many of our boys have grown together through their entire adult lives. Is this a good thing? Creating the “optimum” training facility may in fact be counter productive.

We would do well to embrace the leadership qualities of our individuals. We have a contrived environment where our leaders are more ordained than evolve. We lament the lack of leaders, we may not have the next Hodge in our group, but I am sure we have some leaders in our contrived hierarchy. The thing about real leaders is they build their group and empower their successors. They don’t jealously guard their own domain.

I would love to see the level of input and interaction at team meetings. I see the Cerra, Durdin, Hollands, Cincotta, Kennedy, Williams, Young types as essential to find voice. I would love the likes of Kemp with special talent to be confident to raise issues, questions, make observations that may be impeding their progress rather than shut up, listen and comply mentality. I am making a level of assumption here, but we seem to take a hell of a long time to integrate most of our talented kids. I love the potential of young Cowan, but his blooding was very rushed, he was ordained, whereas Cincotta, along with Kemp, has rapidly proved his readiness to step up and fit in seamlessly after being forced to reaffirm already evident credentials. Cowan seems destined for a decent stint in the twos, I fear he will be set back considerably longer than if compelled to “earn” his spot. He will have to assimilate in to the VFL group after being placed above them. It will be harder than starting the season there as one of them before stepping up.

We need a RESET it has to be done from with in. Shake up the hierarchy and the paradigms. Empower a couple of the lesser lights from a leadership perspective. We could perhaps even go as far as recognising some potential and expanding our three man leadership group. There is also nothing wrong with back to the future, if Doc is in the right space, his proven qualities should be utilised, perhaps to mentor the emerging types during the week in addition to game day.

 

[NewDarkNavyBlues]

Me when Carlton finally make finals again

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

Ha! I've had my emoji access surgically removed by Dr Mod, otherwise I'd award you a definite thumbs up.

Seriously?

 

[Stamos]

The backwards handballing. The just terrible handballing in general precisely where its hard to catch. The handballing to saad when hes still behind the player on the mark. The handballing. The handballing.

So many shit handballs!
Shit both decision wise and skill wise.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

So many s**t handballs!
s**t both decision wise and skill wise.

and the best handballer in the team can't get a game?

 

[Blue and Blue]

We have seen all the guff about Geelong doing less training and meeting during the week, and so less time socialising in each other’s pockets, to allow their mature group to involve themselves in real life. On the surface, this is catering to their ages and family life. In reality it is focussing their interaction on the football ground. The basis of their team is football, and is nit blurred by excessive time filling activities. I think many of the youngsters lose themselves in the club, perhaps more so than other clubs who have had a greater spread of ages on the list. Many of our boys have grown together through their entire adult lives. Is this a good thing? Creating the “optimum” training facility may in fact be counter productive.

I like this bit particularly. Its exactly what football was before the AFL made players way overpaid wallies.

We see it worldwide in sport, and the problems it has created in our socio-political-culture abound and affects every person in some way.

 

[Wickzki]

How long has Fagan bee their coach? We are on our 3rd coach in the same time. They are only just coming good.

They're only now just coming good?

What are you smoking?

He became their coach in 2017.

2017 - wooden spoon. Coming from a very long way back

2018 - 15th and flashing signs of growth
.
2019 - second. Out on straight sets. Not unusual for a new group

2020 - second. Lost in prelim to Geelong

2021 - forth - out in straight sets to eventual grand finalists

2022 - sixth - a game behind second and had better percentage than four and five. They were disappointed and made moves to help them lift

For a team that has in your words just come good that's 4 years of finals more than what we've had in the same period when in the year before Fagan (2016) we finished ahead of them on the ladder with both teams rebuilding.

The problem isn't Voss. The problem is that the group hasn't galvanised themselves and lacks the type of leadership required to do so.

We don't have the luxury of time on our hands. We made the move for Voss (not the biggest problem at the club by a long way) believing that this group was one off field move away from being where Brisbane are now.

The problems begin on field.

 

[Gethelred]

Thsi is the way I see things after 4 seasons sans SOS...

Pick#3: #6;#10; #18 X3 and a bloke that plays for Essendon now. Thats how much collateral SOS wasted on mids. Take Harry and Charlie out of his picks and we've ended up with nothing much because every man and his dog would have picked Weitering and Walsh. The cost ? - apart from a very long slow build to middling status so far has been two coaches ( so far) and a pick #6 to get Cerra on board- which covered for one of the picks lost. SOS's best mid pick was a trade for Kennedy - that was it from SOS.

Continuing and compounding cost(s)? New staff including coaches have to foot the expectations of Blues supporters who brook no excuses for 'not making finals' - because playing lists apparently dont matter and if the blokes that cant or run with teh big dogs can't - well that is a coaching problem - because Voss has been coach at Carlton for so long....

Here is another thing to consider re the cost of so many failed midfield picks- the development team have nothing much to develop in VFL - DOw is slated for a goodbye - leaving Carrol and a preniually injured Philp ( who is probably gone) as the developing mids.

We are playing Hollnds who is a first year runt sized kid with massive running power against seasoned AFL wingmen, we are playing Pitonet one out - because there is no other available ruckman - hence the focus on TDK who is a forward ruck not given any chance to develop his forward part of the game.

That is all I need to know about SOS's list management record and achievements at Carlton.

That he burnt any number of picks and - allegedly - refused help when offered suggests a few different things as well.

I find a lot of the analysis on this a bit reductive (seeing as it need be said, not the post I'm quoting but in general). It's entirely too easy to look at it as good/bad when you could instead be looking at initial position into relative position, progress as opposed to potential.

You're either growing or shrinking, building or collapsing.

Could we be better off? Probably. But other clubs didn't take a great leap forward approach the way we tried to, modernising over the course of a decade rather than trying to do it over 5ish years.

 

[Bostonian]

I really hope this is sarcasm…I really do.

Why?

We all know by now he's not going to lead us to some promised land.

He's not in the top level of captain's.

That he can be jovially chatting with the opposition after the game says he's not got what it takes to lead us anywhere.

 

[Bostonian]

Well I’m naturally disappointed, but also admitting I’m not an idiot.

You are if you keep clapping on the same awful football for the same awful outcomes.

 

[Gointocarlton]

Why?

We all know by now he's not going to lead us to some promised land.

He's not in the top level of captain's.

That he can be jovially chatting with the opposition after the game says he's not got what it takes to lead us anywhere.

Who was he chatting to? Neale? You know they are business partners?

 

[Bostonian]

Who was he chatting to? Neale? You know they are business partners?

Who cares.

You think the fans give a shit about that?

The fans want to see the players pissed off and as disappointed as they are.

Or do you want the fans all to have a laugh along as well?

Talk about being tone deaf.

 

[Gointocarlton]

Who cares.

You think the fans give a s**t about that?

The fans want to see the players pissed off and as disappointed as they are.

Or do you want the fans all to have a laugh along as well?

Talk about being tone deaf.

Wow

 

[JustaBattler]

That he burnt any number of picks and - allegedly - refused help when offered suggests a few different things as well.

I find a lot of the analysis on this a bit reductive (seeing as it need be said, not the post I'm quoting but in general). It's entirely too easy to look at it as good/bad when you could instead be looking at initial position into relative position, progress as opposed to potential.

You're either growing or shrinking, building or collapsing.

Could we be better off? Probably. But other clubs didn't take a great leap forward approach the way we tried to, modernising over the course of a decade rather than trying to do it over 5ish years.

We can only simplify things in twitter land - limitations of time and space demand reductive discourse. I'm unaware of any 'complexities' that may have constrained SOS's performance as list manager - who knows how much negative credit can or should be laid at the feet of his recruiting staff- one of whom I have read refuses to fly. Great expectations often meet with even greater disappointments - such is life.

I think that the theory of improving the list via trade is a good one - again execution is everything - Teague brought in Betts and McGovern, SOS brought in Martin and Austin brought in Williams - three high profile fails themselves in that lot.

I give Austin and co good credit for Cerra and Hewett - so far the draftee haul looks promising.

 

[thylacine60]

Think I've found a clever little function on the phone app. If you swipe the screen down it refreshes. If you want it to.

 

[Show_Me_The_Money]

I’ve mentioned it already this year, but this club is absolutely taking the piss.

The game plan is ******* garbage, and yet Voss seems insistent on persevering with it. Relying on contested marking is never going to be sustainable.

Game plan is dog s**t.
Effort is dog s**t.

Defensive transition is ******* pathetic.

I’m so sick of watching every game devolve into long bombs to a contest and constant turnovers.

Kennedy should never be sub again.

The funny thing is this style notoriously fails in September.