Injury 2023 St Kilda Injury Thread

[phantom13]

Criticise away.

Weird that you took my post personally.

Don’t and didn’t take anything here personally just noting that if you reckon anyone taking issue with this is playing armchair surgeon then we may as well not discuss anything at all. Experts are never wrong are they?

 

[stavro#4]

Surgeon (who can still make mistakes) makes a recommendation. Additionally you might have different surgeons making different recommendations.

The club along with Max makes the decision about which course of action.

Sorry I’m just really confused with your point.

The medical advice is that some strength work and back on the park in 5 weeks. No further damage can be done.

What exactly are you challenging here?

Sending him for surgery now doesn’t provide any further benefits. It doesn’t reduce the risk of reinjury.

So what exactly are you opposed to here?

And yes, surgeons can all have different opinions. But they would have got the best surgeon to look at him. Isn’t that opinion worth more than the second third or fourth best surgeon saying - no, let’s cut him now.

 

[phantom13]

Sorry I’m just really confused with your point.

The medical advice is that some strength work and back on the park in 5 weeks. No further damage can be done.

What exactly are you challenging here?

Sending him for surgery now doesn’t provide any further benefits. It doesn’t reduce the risk of reinjury.

So what exactly are you opposed to here?

And yes, surgeons can all have different opinions. But they would have got the best surgeon to look at him. Isn’t that opinion worth more than the second third or fourth best surgeon saying - no, let’s cut him now.

Challenging that this advice is best for King long term and won’t result in potential further damage and delayed pre season/who knows what longer term.

Based on a fairly extensive list of decisions made by the saints medical team this year that resulted in extensive further delays to players.

“Best” surgeon isn’t definitive so that a pretty pointless discussion. Second, third and fourth is also pointless.

Time will tell really, perhaps this is the best best course of action. If Ross had never said he was done and it was his first shoulder I certainly wouldn’t be as concerned. If our medical team had a better recent record I would be even less concerned.

I don’t think your optimism is necessarily wrong, as you note, they do know more and better than we but I do think being completely disimissuve of concern is pretty naive.

 

[stavro#4]

Challenging that this advice is best for King long term and won’t result in potential further damage and delayed pre season/who knows what longer term.

Based on a fairly extensive list of decisions made by the saints medical team this year that resulted in extensive further delays to players.

“Best” surgeon isn’t definitive so that a pretty pointless discussion. Second, third and fourth is also pointless.

Time will tell really, perhaps this is the best best course of action. If Ross had never said he was done and it was his first shoulder I certainly wouldn’t be as concerned. If our medical team had a better recent record I would be even less concerned.

I don’t think your optimism is necessarily wrong, as you note, they do know more and better than we but I do think being completely disimissuve of concern is pretty naive.

The club is openly sharing the outcome of the last few days.

I just find it hard to understand how people can challenge that advice - without background and confidently and definitively state the advice isn’t the best course of action.

And again, the stkilda medical team hasn’t given this advice. They have been provided it independently.

If there was a chance having surgery now leads to a better outcome. They would have specifically taken that option for Max for his long term career.

 

[stavro#4]

 

[Diehard Saint]

phantom13
View attachment 1736902

For people playing contact sport?

 

[stavro#4]

For people playing contact sport?

I took it as a generalisation across all industries etc.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Hmm.
Apparently was being managed for a week.
Will be interesting to see exactly how long this turns out to be.

 

[phantom13]

The club is openly sharing the outcome of the last few days.

I just find it hard to understand how people can challenge that advice - without background and confidently and definitively state the advice isn’t the best course of action.

And again, the stkilda medical team hasn’t given this advice. They have been provided it independently.

If there was a chance having surgery now leads to a better outcome. They would have specifically taken that option for Max for his long term career.

With all due respect I don’t think you have any clue how this stuff works just from a process pov.

The decision about what course of action to take is absolutely not independent.

The best course is to seek the advice of a few specialists if you get a consensus (which is rare) then obviously you’d go with that.

If you get a few different suggestions (immediate surgery a, immediate surgery b, rehab and no surgery c) then you would consider what is best to suit you, the injury and your goals.

No we know that immediate surgery and long term rehab was one of those options, further assessment and consideration provided this rehab then surgery option as well. The choice of which is down to our club medicos and Max it is not independent at all.

If you’ve been through sports injury surgery (or any for that matter) then you’ll know surgeons never speak in absolutes. So this “no risk of re injury” is bullshit. I’m tipping the surgeon (or surgeons) would have said “we recommend the surgery asap (post any swelling and trauma dying down) BUT if you do this rehab program the likelihood of reinjury of the same nature is relatively low”. The potential for other injury to a joint like the shoulder (which is complex) wouldn’t have even been discussed because a surgeon would say “maybe, maybe not, maybe he’ll win tatts lotto tomorrow”.

Now all of that is a concern to me because it’s now a decision to be made by our medical team with multiple options (all my speculation aside, we know that) and our medical team has a poor record this year, especially when they’ve been aggressive with timeframes and returns.

It seems like you think one doctor, the “best” doctor just unilaterally decides what is best overall for the patient. That’s not the case. The doctor or surgeon (or surgeons) make recommendations and answer questions. The decision is ultimately max and the clubs.

 

[George]

Honest question- Are you blokes making your own narrative up with this stuff?

George - King will be in the gym and completing all running (size and tank)

He will be restricted from contact at training - which is the plan up until late Jan as RTB hates contact for the likes of Max. same with Roo back in the day.

There is NO IMPACT to pre season.

Phantom - doing the injury again could happen irrespective of time sidelined. There is no link to say that giving King 6 weeks longer recovery makes him less likely to injure that shoulder again once he has completed the mandatory recovery period.

Once he is ticked off he is good to go.

He was also held back this year. It made no difference.

Stav it's very simple for me mate, prefer he goes in for full surgery now to give him the best chance to avoid future injury. He's going to play 2 or 3 more games this year, it's pointless to put a bandaid over him.

Not going to change my mind that I think it's a shit decision by the club.

 

[stavro#4]

Stav it's very simple for me mate, prefer he goes in for full surgery now to give him the best chance to avoid future injury. He's going to play 2 or 3 more games this year, it's pointless to put a bandaid over him.

Not going to change my mind that I think it's a s**t decision by the club.

“The key piece of information from the surgeon was that Max wouldn’t be at risk of any further or lasting damage if he was to play again this year,” Acting General Manager of Football David Misson said.

Granted you have an opinion. But your talking factually when the relevant opinion who can provide a factual answer - based on there knowledge and having inspected the shoulder himself is that he can play again - as long as he meets the set milestone goals

 

[George]

“The key piece of information from the surgeon was that Max wouldn’t be at risk of any further or lasting damage if he was to play again this year,” Acting General Manager of Football David Misson said.

Granted you have an opinion. But your talking factually when the relevant opinion who can provide a factual answer - based on there knowledge and having inspected the shoulder himself is that he can play again - as long as he meets the set milestone goals

Personally I don't care enough about it to go back and forth with you on it. I've said what I said and stand by it. Prefer he go in for surgery now and fix it for good rather than paper over it and delay the inevitable. He is playing 2 or 3 games if he comes back - absolutely pointless.

You can have your opinion that's fine, I just disagree with it.

 

[Remboy]

That's a shame about Higgins with Billings injured as well.

 

[stavro#4]

With all due respect I don’t think you have any clue how this stuff works just from a process pov.

The decision about what course of action to take is absolutely not independent.

The best course is to seek the advice of a few specialists if you get a consensus (which is rare) then obviously you’d go with that.

If you get a few different suggestions (immediate surgery a, immediate surgery b, rehab and no surgery c) then you would consider what is best to suit you, the injury and your goals.

No we know that immediate surgery and long term rehab was one of those options, further assessment and consideration provided this rehab then surgery option as well. The choice of which is down to our club medicos and Max it is not independent at all.

If you’ve been through sports injury surgery (or any for that matter) then you’ll know surgeons never speak in absolutes. So this “no risk of re injury” is bullshit. I’m tipping the surgeon (or surgeons) would have said “we recommend the surgery asap (post any swelling and trauma dying down) BUT if you do this rehab program the likelihood of reinjury of the same nature is relatively low”. The potential for other injury to a joint like the shoulder (which is complex) wouldn’t have even been discussed because a surgeon would say “maybe, maybe not, maybe he’ll win tatts lotto tomorrow”.

Now all of that is a concern to me because it’s now a decision to be made by our medical team with multiple options (all my speculation aside, we know that) and our medical team has a poor record this year, especially when they’ve been aggressive with timeframes and returns.

It seems like you think one doctor, the “best” doctor just unilaterally decides what is best overall for the patient. That’s not the case. The doctor or surgeon (or surgeons) make recommendations and answer questions. The decision is ultimately max and the clubs.

Mate, you can have whatever opinion you want.

But you are talking about what is fact and your counter argument is that the surgeon or the club is lying.

Keep in mind. This is the same club who held King back earlier this year. Which completely contradicts your response.

So all good. I can’t be ****ed arguing about this anymore.

 

[stavro#4]

Personally I don't care enough about it to go back and forth with you on it. I've said what I said and stand by it. Prefer he go in for surgery now and fix it for good rather than paper over it and delay the inevitable. He is playing 2 or 3 games if he comes back - absolutely pointless.

You can have your opinion that's fine, I just disagree with it.

Good on the same page.

 

[jwikked]

“The key piece of information from the surgeon was that Max wouldn’t be at risk of any further or lasting damage if he was to play again this year,” Acting General Manager of Football David Misson said.

Granted you have an opinion. But your talking factually when the relevant opinion who can provide a factual answer - based on there knowledge and having inspected the shoulder himself is that he can play again - as long as he meets the set milestone goals

I’d rather give him a 5 - 6 week head start on recovering from the repair surgery. I don’t care that no further damage can occur if he plays now, I’m focusing on the future. Have him at 100% for pre-season next year.

He needs to be at 100% so he can start to bulk up. He needs more strength so he isn’t thrown around in the contest the way he is now.

A 6 week head start gives an extra 6 weeks up out sleeves for the inevitable setbacks.

What’s it going to achieve having him come back for one or two games? Not worth it.

 

[The_Steadier]

Club is not going to do anything that could make it worse

Beside the point.

Pushing back stabilising surgery till the offseason, just so he can maybe get back for a couple of games this year....
That results in him missing the chance to have a full, uninterrupted pre-season.

Sure maybe the doctors are right- and his shoulder joint wont clinically speaking, be worse off.

But max as a player in 2024 and beyond could very well be worse off.

Because not doing the major surgery now means he will miss another huge chunk of another pre-season.

All so he can (maybe) play a couple of games at the end of 2023 where he will likely be hampered (and very worried) about his shoulder the whole time.

A clinical opinion is only one of many opinions that should be listened to.

Putting all the decision making in the hands of what doctors say from a strictly medical perspective is very, very dumb.

 

[stavro#4]

I’d rather give him a 5 - 6 week head start on recovering from the repair surgery. I don’t care that no further damage can occur if he plays now, I’m focusing on the future. Have him at 100% for pre-season next year.

He needs to be at 100% so he can start to bulk up. He needs more strength so he isn’t thrown around in the contest the way he is now.

A 6 week head start gives an extra 6 weeks up out sleeves for the inevitable setbacks.

What’s it going to achieve having him come back for one or two games? Not worth it.

Do you think he is coming back if we can’t make finals?

I’d wager he won’t.

So if we are playing finals - King could very well be the difference in winning or losing one.

 

[beside the seaside]

Do you think he is coming back if we can’t make finals?

I’d wager he won’t.

So if we are playing finals - King could very well be the difference in winning or losing one.

I'm confused by this. Everyone saying it's not worth him coming back for one or two games. Have we given up on playing finals already? He could be the difference of making the finals and then going on a finals run. The bloke is a footballer, I completely understand the desire to play him now and rehab in the off-season if it's an option. He wants to play footy and ultimately he'd want to play finals footy.

Feels like we've finally caught a break with an injury, I don't understand the negativity around it at all.

 

[The_Steadier]

Saints arnt gonna risk there best player to potentially scrape into finals

David Mission says, hold my beer.

The guy has a gigantic history of overseeing injury list dumpster fires.
It would be completely on brand for him to risk our best player to scrape into finals

 

[The_Steadier]

if it was going to impact his ability to be right for next season

There is a massive difference between max "being right" for next season, and him being at the peak of his powers for next season.

He was out for months with his last shoulder reco- it will be the same again (and likely longer) second time around.

Reco in october means he will "be right" for round 1 2024, with stuff all of a pre-season under his belt.

Reco now means he will be at the peak of his powers, with a full shoulder injury recovery AND full pre-season under his belt round 1, 2024.

 

[beside the seaside]

According to RTB press conference, Membrey is coming along well and could be back soon.

 

[phantom13]

Mate, you can have whatever opinion you want.

But you are talking about what is fact and your counter argument is that the surgeon or the club is lying.

Keep in mind. This is the same club who held King back earlier this year. Which completely contradicts your response.

So all good. I can’t be ****ed arguing about this anymore.

No, thats not correct.

Ill be clear here, and you can correct me if i am wrong.

You are of the opinion that this is the surgeons advice and that the surgeon makes the final decision about what Max WILL do.

Thats not correct.

Factually, and this is important, the process is that a surgeon, or multiple surgeons will provide advice, and Max and the club will decide what they want to do. So the decision made to rehab and then surgery is not at all independent.

Your opinion is that they have decided the best course of action (essentially because the surgeon would have told them this was the best course of action). My opinion is that they have made a decision that is short sighted and i back my opinion with their current recent record.

We can disagree on the opinions, thats fine, but yours is based on incorrect facts about process. I doubt it changes your mind and thats completely okay.

 

[beside the seaside]

No, thats not correct.

Ill be clear here, and you can correct me if i am wrong.

You are of the opinion that this is the surgeons advice and that the surgeon makes the final decision about what Max WILL do.

Thats not correct.

Factually, and this is important, the process is that a surgeon, or multiple surgeons will provide advice, and Max and the club will decide what they want to do. So the decision made to rehab and then surgery is not at all independent.

Your opinion is that they have decided the best course of action (essentially because the surgeon would have told them this was the best course of action). My opinion is that they have made a decision that is short sighted and i back my opinion with their current recent record.

We can disagree on the opinions, thats fine, but yours is based on incorrect facts about process. I doubt it changes your mind and thats completely okay.

Misson talks about it here:

https://www.saints.com.au/video/1378995/lyon-and-misson-with-the-latest-on-king-showdown-with-suns?videoId=1378995&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1689211735001

Sounds like if it pops out again he'll still be right to complete pre-season and it won't do any further damage. And if the surgery gets done the day after the grand final it won't impact his pre-season.

 

[BrutThough]

There is a massive difference between max "being right" for next season, and him being at the peak of his powers for next season.

He was out for months with his last shoulder reco- it will be the same again (and likely longer) second time around.

Reco in october means he will "be right" for round 1 2024, with stuff all of a pre-season under his belt.

Reco now means he will be at the peak of his powers, with a full shoulder injury recovery AND full pre-season under his belt round 1, 2024.

It is a reco that he needs?

Jon Ralph tweeted that he will be getting the latarjet surgery which is a quicker recovery than a reconstruction.