List Mgmt. 2024 List Management discussion

[Johnny Bananas]

On Rayner he’s another “dumb” footballer but he performs better on the outside if the ball is hand fed to him. Can’t win it enough and has nfi where to move or how to use his body consistently. He just tries to brute force everything… doesn’t work in afl.

There was one point in the fourth quarter where he ran into a contest, extracted and galloped away, which showed all his promise as an inside midfielder. Yes, he's not been able to do this consistently, but I still feel, if he can do that, let's find a way to harness it, even if it's only in a fraction of the match.

 

[Nathan Barley]

There was one point in the fourth quarter where he ran into a contest, extracted and galloped away, which showed all his promise as an inside midfielder. Yes, he's not been able to do this consistently, but I still feel, if he can do that, let's find a way to harness it, even if it's only in a fraction of the match.

I think that’s what he does well. Going from outside to in to extract the ball. Rather than start inside then try and break out

But just needs to find a way to be involved

And improve his goal kicking. Probably our worst set shot with a lot of competition.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Had a gander at some stats from the SANFL. Will Snelling

11

Will Snelling

Age

27

Ht

175cm

Wt

79kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.1

4star

K

4.7

2star

HB

9.4

5star

M

1.8

2star

T

4.8

5star

G

0.8

4star

D

12.6

3star

K

4.3

2star

HB

8.3

4star

M

1.3

1star

T

5.6

5star

G

0.4

3star

D

16.2

4star

K

5.2

2star

HB

11.0

5star

M

2.4

3star

T

3.8

5star

G

1.2

4star

is leading the league in both disposals and tackles. He's had 18 tackles in a game this season, twice.

 

[Sproj]

Let's have a conversation about Rayner - not about what he could be? not about how this will be his break out game, or his break out season but about the reality of of where he is actually at.

As a number 1 draft pick he is at the lower end, as an elite AFL player he is at the lower end. Each year we get half a game and he blows it apart and we all dance and think he has arrived, but the reality is that he is a pretty inconsistent, average player.

He could still step up, he could still be elite, I hope he does.

I'm thinking if we have the 2 Ashcroft boys and Bailey back, Kiddy back next year then Cam would not be in out top team.

What would Rayner be worth on the trade table? A decent first round pick we could trade for a more consistent performer? his 7th year must be up soon and i don't think I'd be matching a high bid and he would maybe an end of first round draft compensation at best on his actual performances.

Yep not sure where Rayner fits from next year. He just hasn't come on. The frustration to me in many ways is similar to Watts. He shows glimpses and they are super exciting but then disappears for weeks on end. He also had a GF that was true to form and went missing when we really needed him to step up.

If someone comes sniffing for him and wants to give up something decent in return, we should entertain it.

I'm not pushing him out the door but just wanting to be realistic that what he is offering just isn't good enough for where we are as a team, at least how we are projecting for 2025 anyway.

I suppose an interesting questions is, of these blokes, who is still ahead of? Who will he still be ahead of 2025?

Definitely not:
Neale
Dunkley
Berry (if still at Brissy)
McCluggage (if still at Brissy)
Zorko (if plays on)
McKenna
Starcevich
Wilmott


Probably not:
Bailey
WAshcroft (only due to not knowing who he will be after the knee)
Coleman (see above)
Lohmann
Fletcher
Sharp
Morris
Answerth

So yeah, he is definitely not screaming must keep.

On par/perhaps slightly better than:
McCarthy (see above with WAshcroft)
Ah Chee
Reville
Cameron (he is an entirely different issue)
Robertson (if still at the club)

Unknown:
LAshcroft
Marshall
Annabel?

 

[McIvor]

Yep not sure where Rayner fits from next year. He just hasn't come on. The frustration to me in many ways is similar to Watts. He shows glimpses and they are super exciting but then disappears for weeks on end. He also had a GF that was true to form and went missing when we really needed him to step up.

If someone comes sniffing for him and wants to give up something decent in return, we should entertain it.

I'm not pushing him out the door but just wanting to be realistic that what he is offering just isn't good enough for where we are as a team, at least how we are projecting for 2025 anyway.

I suppose an interesting questions is, of these blokes, who is still ahead of? Who will he still be ahead of 2025?

Definitely not:
Neale
Dunkley
Berry (if still at Brissy)
McCluggage (if still at Brissy)
Zorko (if plays on)
McKenna
Starcevich
Wilmott


Probably not:
Bailey
WAshcroft (only due to not knowing who he will be after the knee)
Coleman (see above)
Lohmann
Fletcher
Sharp
Morris
Answerth

So yeah, he is definitely not screaming must keep.

On par/perhaps slightly better than:
McCarthy (see above with WAshcroft)
Ah Chee
Reville
Cameron (he is an entirely different issue)
Robertson (if still at the club)

Unknown:
LAshcroft
Marshall
Annabel?

Young Levi will be better than Cam within about a half dozen games. But yeah, I think if an offer to good to be true would be beneficial for both parties and whilst I suspect Cam will flourish elsewhere and many will lament his turn around, it really just isn’t happening here and it’s probably the fault of somewhere between him and the coaches in how they use him and unwillingness to drop him throughout his career.

 

[davemc_lions]

no problem if we get Daniel Lloyd

38

Daniel Lloyd

Age

32

Ht

187cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.5

3star

K

6.4

3star

HB

5.1

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

3.0

5star

G

0.8

4star

D

7.5

2star

K

5.5

2star

HB

2.0

1star

M

3.0

3star

T

3.2

4star

G

0.5

4star

D

11.6

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

6.2

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

1.8

4star

G

0.8

4star

in the mid year, makes sense.. Someone ready to play best 22 if needed.
All we need is a few more injuries.....

From injuries we have now Lohmann, Morris, Bruce, Sharp, Prior and Brain in 22 on weekend..
Answerth prob take back this week so you assume Prior/Brain out
We also have Ashcroft, Starc and Bailey back in 3-6 weeks into best 22
You think Reville keeps his spot and Morris looked good although be a spot squeeze.

Dev, Madden and Micheal back soon with VFL guys Tunstill, Luke Lloyd, Torrent, ZZ, Joyce, Ryan and the 3 rucks
So who do we think we can pick up in mid year draft that is better than them?
Are we thinking about our 4 ACL guys
Is Doedee a cert for the start of the year? Do we need another key back
Is there anyone better than Joyce out there? Or be happy to go Brisbane for 3-4 months.
If we want another key back are we targeting anyone for end of year rather then someone on 18 months?
Will Morris/AhChee fill in for Linc/Dizzy?
Are we hoping Zorko/Reville fill in for Kiddy?

Honestly I get Daniel Lloyd

38

Daniel Lloyd

Age

32

Ht

187cm

Wt

83kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.5

3star

K

6.4

3star

HB

5.1

4star

M

2.8

3star

T

3.0

5star

G

0.8

4star

D

7.5

2star

K

5.5

2star

HB

2.0

1star

M

3.0

3star

T

3.2

4star

G

0.5

4star

D

11.6

3star

K

5.4

2star

HB

6.2

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

1.8

4star

G

0.8

4star

in as experiance, maybe look at another key back and look for some speedy players.

 

[Tom14]

FWIW I saw Lloyd play all last year - he definitely had enough juice to go around again, but not enough to 100% lock down a spot without injuries.

Well guess what, we've got injuries. Ideally he won't be playing in seniors but if we really do need a Linc-style high half forward he can do that without being an outright liability.

As, say, the fourth selection of a bunch of selections that are unlikely to amount to much there's no real downside, especially since he would be happy to take six months.

no problem if we get Daniel Lloyd in the mid year, makes sense.. Someone ready to play best 22 if needed.
All we need is a few more injuries.....

From injuries we have now Lohmann, Morris, Bruce, Sharp, Prior and Brain in 22 on weekend..
Answerth prob take back this week so you assume Prior/Brain out
We also have Ashcroft, Starc and Bailey back in 3-6 weeks into best 22
You think Reville keeps his spot and Morris looked good although be a spot squeeze.

Dev, Madden and Micheal back soon with VFL guys Tunstill, Luke Lloyd, Torrent, ZZ, Joyce, Ryan and the 3 rucks
So who do we think we can pick up in mid year draft that is better than them?
Are we thinking about our 4 ACL guys
Is Doedee a cert for the start of the year? Do we need another key back
Is there anyone better than Joyce out there? Or be happy to go Brisbane for 3-4 months.
If we want another key back are we targeting anyone for end of year rather then someone on 18 months?
Will Morris/AhChee fill in for Linc/Dizzy?
Are we hoping Zorko/Reville fill in for Kiddy?

Honestly I get Daniel Lloyd in as experiance, maybe look at another key back and look for some speedy players.

On Lloyd - Jon Ralph's article about him being an option got taken down because...

He isn't even eligible for the mid-season draft!!!

Eligibility criteria (from last year):

2023 Mid-Season Rookie Draft eligibility update

The AFL has made a player eligibility amendment for the 2023 AFL Mid-Season Rookie Draft

www.afl.com.au

A player is now eligible to nominate for the Mid-Season Rookie Draft (MSRD) under any of the following:

• The player nominated for the most recent National Draft but was not selected;
  • Players who committed for a further year as a 19-year-old Northern or NGA Academy Player are available to all clubs should they nominate for the MSRD.
• The player has previously been on the list of an AFL club (and are therefore not required to have nominated for the most recent National Draft). This refers to the following situations:
  • A delisted player. A player delisted by a club cannot be reselected in the MSRD by the same club in the period immediately following their delisting unless they nominated for the most recent draft.
  • A retired player and/or a player who has delisted himself and has not been on an AFL list for one year or more.
• A player currently registered in one of the WAFL, SANFL, TSL or VFL and have played a minimum of three matches by the close of nominations on Wednesday 24 May, 2023.
  • The player must have been 18 years of age prior to 1 January 2023
  • A player meeting the above criteria does not need to have nominated for the most recent National Draft.

Because he retired (and wasn't delisted) he has to have a year out of the AFL before he can be considered/nominate for the mid season draft.

Unless there is a late rule change, he's not an option.

 

[dlanod]

On Lloyd - Jon Ralph's article about him being an option got taken down because...

He isn't even eligible for the mid-season draft!!!

Eligibility criteria (from last year):

2023 Mid-Season Rookie Draft eligibility update

The AFL has made a player eligibility amendment for the 2023 AFL Mid-Season Rookie Draft

www.afl.com.au

Because he retired (and wasn't delisted) he has to have a year out of the AFL before he can be considered/nominate for the mid season draft.

Unless there is a late rule change, he's not an option.

From memory, there's only a difference between retiring and delisting if players had time left on their contract and I'm pretty sure Daniel was OOC at the end of last year. It's a grey area but there's been similar oddities where players have come out of retirement and signed as DFAs when you wouldn't thought they'd count as delisting.

Basically it's enough of a grey area that I would have assumed they would have at least checked with someone. Maybe they didn't.

 

[McIvor]

On Lloyd - Jon Ralph's article about him being an option got taken down because...

He isn't even eligible for the mid-season draft!!!

Eligibility criteria (from last year):

2023 Mid-Season Rookie Draft eligibility update

The AFL has made a player eligibility amendment for the 2023 AFL Mid-Season Rookie Draft

www.afl.com.au

Because he retired (and wasn't delisted) he has to have a year out of the AFL before he can be considered/nominate for the mid season draft.

Unless there is a late rule change, he's not an option.

I hope we don’t hit the MSD unless there is someone there we genuinely would like to acquire at seasons end and we need to get a jump on those clubs not participating in the MSD or it’s a short term option like Lloyd. That being said, I would expect if the club applied to the AFL to recruit Lloyd under these sort of circumstances that our request would be granted.

 

[Tom14]

From memory, there's only a difference between retiring and delisting if players had time left on their contract and I'm pretty sure Daniel was OOC at the end of last year. It's a grey area but there's been similar oddities where players have come out of retirement and signed as DFAs when you wouldn't thought they'd count as delisting.

Basically it's enough of a grey area that I would have assumed they would have at least checked with someone. Maybe they didn't.

I'm sure if the club was genuinely interested in Lloyd they'd have asked the question. But my assumption is that Ralphy's reporting was a bit premature, and he definitely didn't bother check whether Lloyd was eligible.

 

[briztoon]

We have 20 players, not counting Levi Ashcroft or Sam Marshall, on our VFL list.

So depth shouldn’t be a problem.

The quality of the VFL team will suffer, but that’s just par for the course.

I would maybe consider Richardson or McDonald, if we want them on the list as academy rookies, and not sure if another team might pick them up in the end of season draft.

Official AFL Website of the Brisbane Lions Football Club

The official AFL website of the Brisbane Lions Football Club

www.lions.com.au

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Dev, Madden and Micheal back soon with VFL guys Tunstill, Luke Lloyd, Torrent, ZZ, Joyce, Ryan and the 3 rucks
So who do we think we can pick up in mid year draft that is better than them?

I don't understand why we absolutely need someone who will be better than them all right now, particularly if that player is 32 years old and has zero chance of being on next year's playing list. Are we mounting a serious challenge at a flag this season, with all our injuries and our record so far? If the answer is no, then we're better off giving those youngsters a taste of top level football. Even if Lloyd is eligible, we shouldn't pick him. Someone 26 or younger might actually stick around as a player for 2025.

 

[davemc_lions]

I don't understand why we absolutely need someone who will be better than them all right now, particularly if that player is 32 years old and has zero chance of being on next year's playing list. Are we mounting a serious challenge at a flag this season, with all our injuries and our record so far? If the answer is no, then we're better off giving those youngsters a taste of top level football. Even if Lloyd is eligible, we shouldn't pick him. Someone 26 or younger might actually stick around as a player for 2025.

If we getting someone for 6 months they either be.
1) ready to play best 22 now over those on the list, so more likely a recently delisted/retired player
2) Fill a hole we do not have in our listed VFL players for 6 months.
3) Break glass in case of emergency player.
After 6 months to get a spot on our list they will replace someone on our current list

If we getting someone for 18+ months in the draft
Then we looking at this person more long term so they replace someone on our current list.

We only have these 4 spots from long term ACL's which all hopefully playing early in 2025.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

If we getting someone for 6 months they either be.
1) ready to play best 22 now over those on the list, so more likely a recently delisted/retired player

But what would that give us? A better chance at winning games this year? Then we can finish with 12 wins instead of 11, hooray! But we're still not going to win the flag, so I don't see the value. That's why I'm saying playing the youth is a more valuable use of match day spots.

2) Fill a hole we do not have in our listed VFL players for 6 months.
3) Break glass in case of emergency player.
After 6 months to get a spot on our list they will replace someone on our current list

I disagree that those are the only options, because there's a fourth type: a speculative player who isn't best 22 now, but with some development in a professional system, could become best 22. I'm realistic enough to realise that these players mostly don't work out, which is why I want us to draft 3-4 of them in the MSD on 6 month contracts, and inform them they're all battling it out for one spot on the list next year. If one succeeds and contributes to our premiership push in 2025, that's a job well done, and better than what Daniel Lloyd could give us if he was eligible and we drafted him.

 

[Sproj]

So for 2025, we are looking at (dependent on not losing any first 22 players except Zorks who might retire...but then the way he's playing..., which is still not a given of course):

Backs:
Andrews, Payne, Doedee/Lester/Gardiner, Wilmott, Starc/McKenna/Brain/Answerth, Coleman, McKenna/Brain/Starc/Answerth

Mids:
Neale, WAshcroft, Dunkley, Berry, McCluggage, McInerney/Smith, Fletcher, LAshcroft/Sharp/Reville/Dev/Marshall

Forwards:
Daniher, Hipwood, Cameron, Lohmann, Morris, Rayner, Ah Chee/LAshcroft/McCarthy

So yeah, there are going to be some recognised names missing out, especially for defense unless of course we lose Cluggs, Berry and Zorks which would massively change things obviously, as would getting in Ainsworth but this is pure wishful thinking for now.

I wonder if we might try to re-purpose one or two of those small backs into small forwards.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I wonder if we might try to re-purpose one or two of those small backs into small forwards.

Which one would you say is the poorest field kick?

 

[pod17]

Sproj it is a fair comparison you draw. I hadn’t thought about Watts for a while, but in 2016 he kicked 38 goals and averaged 16 possessions a game. Sadly it looks like getting close to that output from Cam is very unlikely.
A tough call looming regarding his place on the list (from a salary perspective) coming up.

 

[davemc_lions]

But what would that give us? A better chance at winning games this year? Then we can finish with 12 wins instead of 11, hooray! But we're still not going to win the flag, so I don't see the value. That's why I'm saying playing the youth is a more valuable use of match day spots.


I disagree that those are the only options, because there's a fourth type: a speculative player who isn't best 22 now, but with some development in a professional system, could become best 22. I'm realistic enough to realise that these players mostly don't work out, which is why I want us to draft 3-4 of them in the MSD on 6 month contracts, and inform them they're all battling it out for one spot on the list next year. If one succeeds and contributes to our premiership push in 2025, that's a job well done, and better than what Daniel Lloyd could give us if he was eligible and we drafted him.

So 4 Guys and one Spot..
Fight fight fight
Could work..
I love to get someone who come in work hard and win a spot.
Some of our young guys getting games now which is good.

We could maybe sneak into the 8.. Then depending on form who knows.
On our day we still have some match winners.
Problem is most days half the team asleep lately.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Sproj it is a fair comparison you draw. I hadn’t thought about Watts for a while, but in 2016 he kicked 38 goals and averaged 16 possessions a game. Sadly it looks like getting close to that output from Cam is very unlikely.
A tough call looming regarding his place on the list (from a salary perspective) coming up.

He was 5th in the best and fairest last year

 

[martinson]

I'm sure if the club was genuinely interested in Lloyd they'd have asked the question. But my assumption is that Ralphy's reporting was a bit premature, and he definitely didn't bother check whether Lloyd was eligible.

Ralphy didn't check ??

Knock me over with a feather.

 

[pod17]

So 4 Guys and one Spot..
Fight fight fight
Could work..
I love to get someone who come in work hard and win a spot.
Some of our young guys getting games now which is good.

We could maybe sneak into the 8.. Then depending on form who knows.
On our day we still have some match winners.
Problem is most days half the team asleep lately.

I understand where you’re coming from but there might be additional benefits to having Lloyd out there. Clearly he has some coaching qualities, and I feel his on field leadership might therefore be of benefit to our younger players getting games whilst our injury list is so long. Not putting him in the same category as Hodge, but having another experienced head out there whilst guys are finding their feet would surely be helpful.

 

[pod17]

He was 5th in the best and fairest last year

He won’t be this year on current form. Therefore 1 top 5 finish in 6 completed years for a pick one doesn’t seem like a great return, nor someone that would attract a substantial salary when more talented youth are coming through. In my opinion anyway.

 

[Nathan Barley]

He won’t be this year on current form. Therefore 1 top 5 finish in 6 completed years for a pick one doesn’t seem like a great return, nor someone that would attract a substantial salary when more talented youth are coming through. In my opinion anyway.

It’s definitely not but that wasn’t the point

The coaches were probably quite happy with his output last year

 

[pod17]

It’s definitely not but that wasn’t the point

The coaches were probably quite happy with his output last year

Fair point, but worth noting even a player like Simon Prestigiacomo finished top 3 in a best and fairest count. Lots of factors bias the voting of the coaches outside of performance I am sure, including attitude to taking on a new role etc.

 

[martinson]

He was 5th in the best and fairest last year

Come on Nathan ,there's no one on here or in footy and follows us who didn't think that was nuts.

Just watch him for the whole game . Especially when he doesn't get the ball.

He's spending a lot of the game in the forward line and not using a lot of gas, when's the last time you saw him get it in the back half like Ah Chee yesterday , with minimal impact in the game. This is what generally happens.

If he's ever going to be any good let's find out. Put him in the 2's and let him completely dominate if he's that good ,or give him a role commensurate with what we're paying him.

I know he's a great bloke and all that . OK I knock him fairly often. Pretend I'm Beardancer.

That spilt mark at the end where he had no idea did me in. Yes we all know it can happen to anyone. If he was accepted as just an average player in and out of the team that's fine . If he's 5th b/f good , well I've seen it for about 5 quarters in 5 years.