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AFLW 2024 - Round 4 - Chat, game threads, injury lists, team lineups and more.
List Mgmt. 2024 List Management Part 2 š
- Thread starter Aphrodite
- Start date
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- Aug 20, 2019
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If this rumour in the Bluemour thread is true, I have absolutely no idea what list management is doing. Good player, but the fix to our slow and one-paced midfield is to get ANOTHER slow and one-paced midfielder? I really don't understand.
- Mar 25, 2019
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Rivers, Fritsch, May would be the names I'd be asking the question of
Flaggers22
Draftee
- May 24, 2022
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Given our recent history with coaches, we're locked in with Voss for at least another 12 months, whether we like it or not. I think we have the nucleus of a premiership team, and whilst I don't think Voss is incapable of coaching us to a premiership, I think he lacks the tactical nous to win a flag with a glaring list hole (e.g. Collingwoods Key Forwards in 2023) or a host of stars unavailable (e.g. WCE missing Sheppard, Gaff, Naitanui in 2018). Currently we have both. The slow ball movement, lacking an AFL standard 2nd key defender, and the injury list, collectively diminish our chances of winning a flag. However, it shouldn't take much to turn things around, look at what Hawthorn accomplished in the trade period last year. We have the core to contend we just need to restructure around the edges. This is how I would address each issue if I were given the keys to the club.
Perpetually Injured Blues
Adam Cerra - He's our 3rd best mid, but the never ending cycle of hamstring strains is frustrating. My rational brain is saying keep him, let's see if a new fitness boss can get him to stay out on the park. My impulsive brain is saying trade him, if we can find a club willing to give up a 1st rounder for him.
Zac Williams - He has lots of upside and zero currency, we'll just have to hope the next fitness boss can help him
Mitch McGovern - I've liked what Gov has produced over the last 2 years, keep him and hope for better durability
Orazio Fantasia - The decision to give him 2 years given our injury history is a head scratcher, delist in 2025
Sam Docherty - I love Doc, but we can never rely on him and I think he'll probably retire at the end of 2025
Jack Martin - Trade him, if there's a willing buyer. Delist if not.
Caleb Marchbank - Delist, he's a list clog, always has been and always will be, the decision to extend him was perplexing
David Cuningham - Delist (see Marchbank)
Other Trades/Delistings/Uncontracted Players
Jack Carroll - Trade/Delist
Matt Kennedy - We have four slow inside mids on our list (Cerra, Cripps, Hewett, Kennedy) and only two of them need to be in the 22, playing 3 of them is overkill and all 4 is just insanity. I'd trade Kennedy if there's any takers as I think he's the worst of the 4.
Marc Pittonet - I'd trade him if there's a decent offer on the table (a 2nd rounder or better, this is probably way too optimistic), but have no problems keeping him on the list. He's a good backup and who knows we might be able to explore playing 2 rucks again if the AFL brings in a 5 man bench or we fix our ball movement issues.
Sam Durdin - Delist
Dom Akuei - Delist
Matt Owies - Extend
Alex Mirkov - Delist
Ball Movement
This is our main issue. I have two pet hates right now, the first is the players who after taking a mark, use all their allotted before kicking it (this just allows the other team to set up their zone), sure it's sometimes warranted, but it can't be your default mode. The second is the players who never look to cut the angles and continually just blast it to a pack. This is mainly a skill issue, but I think it has something to do with coaching too. I think if the coaches mandated fast and aggressive ball use, we'd be able to raise our skill in this regard. I've identified some players that I think are part of the problem, I've given an exemption to some players who are playing in roles where they're not required to be a good field kick (e.g. Cripps, De Koning etc.). We don't need to drop all these guys, I think we could improve our ball movement markedly, if just 2-3 of them were replaced with elite users.
The Offenders
The Bad:
Nic Newman - He's a good kick (he has the occasional howler), but my criticism of him is just that he takes too long to move the ball.
Ollie Hollands - See Newman. I think this could be drilled out of him, if we placed more emphasis on faster ball movement.
Alex Cincotta - His line breaking is an asset to our ball movement, his kicking is not. He's currently operating at 57.6% kicking efficiency. He's one of many Carlton players who just blindly bombs it long.
Small Forwards - Collectively these guys are just too slow, it helps to have a Hill or Cameron to break lines and run into easy goals.
Midfield - Again too slow, as a collective they're terrible kicks too.
The Ugly:
Matt Kennedy - The worst rated kick for inside 50's in the comp, I don't think anymore needs to be said.
George Hewett - Lacks penetration in his kicking, this means he often handballs when he shouldn't.
Blake Acres - He frequently skies the ball to a pack, or blindly kicks it out of D50.
Brodie Kemp - He's in the bottom quintile for kicking efficiency among key defenders, and the top quintile for clangers.
Sam Walsh - His chain running ability should make him an asset to our ball movement, however, as we repeatedly kick it to congestion, and prefer a slow build up in transition, we take away that strength of his. Walsh's kicking efficiency is down on last year (49.6% vs 62.6%), is this simply explained by bad form or are we not maximising his strengths, by moving the ball quickly and allowing him to run into open space. It's noteworthy that his contested posessions are higher than last year, whilst his uncontested possessions are lower than last year.
Solutions
Shifting the Magnets/VFL Promotions
Jaxon Binns - Binns shares many physical similarities to Hollands, but is more offensively minded whereas Hollands and Acres have a defensive mindset. I think we need to change that balance, I'd prefer to play Binns and Hollands as our first choice wingers next year. Binns has a few attributes that could help us unlock our ball movement, some examples of which are a) low and hard kicks, which get to the target faster b) not afraid to look inside or to change angles c) he often takes marks and kicks it 1-2 seconds later, he doesn't take 10 seconds to go back 15m and assess all options d) after kicking the ball he runs hard to present for a 1-2 and often loses his man whilst doing so. You can see most of these attributes in the video I linked below, needless to say, I think it's criminal that he hasn't been rewarded for his stellar VFL form.
Billy Wilson - Has speed and he's a good kick, I hope he plays seniors next year.
Ashton Moir - I'm less bullish on Moir, but if he were to improve his workrate, he'd be an asset to our ball movement with his dual sided kicking.
Lachie Cowan - I love Cowan, so much so that I want to clone him and play him across every line. He breaks tackles with such ease that it makes me wonder if he might not be better utilised as a mid, it probably doesn't do anything for our ball movement. However, I don't think we experiment with positions enough, and he's one who I think could play anywhere, I'd trial him in the midfield and forward line, just to see if it leads to better output.
Trade/FA
Liam Ryan - There's some drawbacks with this guy, he's only played 1 full season, and he's never kicked more than 30 goals. However, he's tough and fast, and better than any small forward we have on our list. I'd take him in a heartbeat for a future 1st.
Dan Houston - Port Adelaide will ask for the world, and I'd prefer to have a strong draft hand this year, as I rate this crop. Also, we have a greater need for good ball users in the midfield and forward line as opposed to the backline.
Jack Lukosius - Pass
I'd also be interested in any fringe/moneyball players that use the ball well, but none come to mind right now.
Draft
Realistic Targets for our 1st pick
Xavier Lindsay - I see shades of Merrett and McCluggage in him. He's a beautiful kick and a left footer too which would add some much needed variety to our midfield. We're the only team in the comp that doesn't have a left footed wingman or onballer in our best 22 (Acres, Hollands, Cripps, Walsh, Cerra, Kennedy, Hewett). I have him in my top 3 on a needs basis and top 10 on talent, Twomey has him ranked 16th in his latest form guide, so there's a good chance he's available at our pick (likely somewhere from 10-15).
I've linked some footage below if this has piqued your interest
Tobie Travaglia - A poor mans Nick Blakey imo, but that still makes him a very good prospect. Would give us another linebreaker off half back, and potentially allow us the flexibility to move someone like Wilson or even Saad up the ground.
Christian Moraes - Probably going to be a reach with our first, but he's a beautiful kick. I'd take him if Travaglia and Lindsay are off the board.
Joe Berry - Has speed and kicks goals, which I like. His field kicking is a little erratic which I don't like. I'd take him if the first three are off the board, but my preference would be to target small forwards with our later picks, or not at all if we land Liam Ryan.
F/S
Ben Camporeale - Not as hot on him as other Carlton supporters. I think he'd be ok value if bid on in the 50s, if Ben could kick he'd be a borderline top 10 prospect, but he kicks like Paddy Dow. We have enough of that in our midfield. I see him mostly as VFL depth.
Lucas Camporeale - I think Lucas has a higher ceiling than Ben, yes his output has been worse in u18s, but he can hit a target. Having said that, he seems overly cautious and passive with the ball in hand. I think you have a better chance of rectifying these flaws than kicking, which is why I have Lucas ahead.
Key Defender (options ranked in order of preference)
Trade/FA - No to Barrass, because WCE would want a 1st rounder. No to Haynes, he's old and undersized. Yes to Battle, because it would cost nothing, however, it's unlikely, as we lack the funds to compete with other suitors, and they're likely further down the road in negotiations. I think the best course is to go down the Moneyball path. I won't pretend to follow the state leagues closely enough to suggest candidates here. Anyone bigger than Kemp and better than Young/Durdin will do.
Shifting the Magnets - If the worst comes to worst and we can't land an upgrade, I'd try playing Silvagni as a defender. He's slightly taller than Kemp (although still undersized), and has acquitted himself well, in the few games he has played as a defender
Draft - I'd almost rule this out completely, because key position players take a while to develop and we're in position to contend now. I wouldn't say no to a developing KPD with a later pick, but I would prefer to use the earlier picks on kids who have elite disposal.
Conclusion
I think Austin knows that our ball movement has been an issue, hence the Wilson and Moir selections last year. However, I think he needs to take more drastic steps to address it. If he does and it doesn't lead to better performance next year or Voss persists with the one paced midfield, then I think we need to let Voss go. I think the positives of Austins tenure outweigh the negatives, his talent identification seems to be better than Silvagni's (you have to factor in the weaker hand), so I think we have a decent list manager, but this offseason will be telling. All in all, I think things could turn quite easily, kudos to anyone who reads all of this, you must be just as bored as I was when I wrote it.
Perpetually Injured Blues
Adam Cerra - He's our 3rd best mid, but the never ending cycle of hamstring strains is frustrating. My rational brain is saying keep him, let's see if a new fitness boss can get him to stay out on the park. My impulsive brain is saying trade him, if we can find a club willing to give up a 1st rounder for him.
Zac Williams - He has lots of upside and zero currency, we'll just have to hope the next fitness boss can help him
Mitch McGovern - I've liked what Gov has produced over the last 2 years, keep him and hope for better durability
Orazio Fantasia - The decision to give him 2 years given our injury history is a head scratcher, delist in 2025
Sam Docherty - I love Doc, but we can never rely on him and I think he'll probably retire at the end of 2025
Jack Martin - Trade him, if there's a willing buyer. Delist if not.
Caleb Marchbank - Delist, he's a list clog, always has been and always will be, the decision to extend him was perplexing
David Cuningham - Delist (see Marchbank)
Other Trades/Delistings/Uncontracted Players
Jack Carroll - Trade/Delist
Matt Kennedy - We have four slow inside mids on our list (Cerra, Cripps, Hewett, Kennedy) and only two of them need to be in the 22, playing 3 of them is overkill and all 4 is just insanity. I'd trade Kennedy if there's any takers as I think he's the worst of the 4.
Marc Pittonet - I'd trade him if there's a decent offer on the table (a 2nd rounder or better, this is probably way too optimistic), but have no problems keeping him on the list. He's a good backup and who knows we might be able to explore playing 2 rucks again if the AFL brings in a 5 man bench or we fix our ball movement issues.
Sam Durdin - Delist
Dom Akuei - Delist
Matt Owies - Extend
Alex Mirkov - Delist
Ball Movement
This is our main issue. I have two pet hates right now, the first is the players who after taking a mark, use all their allotted before kicking it (this just allows the other team to set up their zone), sure it's sometimes warranted, but it can't be your default mode. The second is the players who never look to cut the angles and continually just blast it to a pack. This is mainly a skill issue, but I think it has something to do with coaching too. I think if the coaches mandated fast and aggressive ball use, we'd be able to raise our skill in this regard. I've identified some players that I think are part of the problem, I've given an exemption to some players who are playing in roles where they're not required to be a good field kick (e.g. Cripps, De Koning etc.). We don't need to drop all these guys, I think we could improve our ball movement markedly, if just 2-3 of them were replaced with elite users.
The Offenders
The Bad:
Nic Newman - He's a good kick (he has the occasional howler), but my criticism of him is just that he takes too long to move the ball.
Ollie Hollands - See Newman. I think this could be drilled out of him, if we placed more emphasis on faster ball movement.
Alex Cincotta - His line breaking is an asset to our ball movement, his kicking is not. He's currently operating at 57.6% kicking efficiency. He's one of many Carlton players who just blindly bombs it long.
Small Forwards - Collectively these guys are just too slow, it helps to have a Hill or Cameron to break lines and run into easy goals.
Midfield - Again too slow, as a collective they're terrible kicks too.
The Ugly:
Matt Kennedy - The worst rated kick for inside 50's in the comp, I don't think anymore needs to be said.
George Hewett - Lacks penetration in his kicking, this means he often handballs when he shouldn't.
Blake Acres - He frequently skies the ball to a pack, or blindly kicks it out of D50.
Brodie Kemp - He's in the bottom quintile for kicking efficiency among key defenders, and the top quintile for clangers.
Sam Walsh - His chain running ability should make him an asset to our ball movement, however, as we repeatedly kick it to congestion, and prefer a slow build up in transition, we take away that strength of his. Walsh's kicking efficiency is down on last year (49.6% vs 62.6%), is this simply explained by bad form or are we not maximising his strengths, by moving the ball quickly and allowing him to run into open space. It's noteworthy that his contested posessions are higher than last year, whilst his uncontested possessions are lower than last year.
Solutions
Shifting the Magnets/VFL Promotions
Jaxon Binns - Binns shares many physical similarities to Hollands, but is more offensively minded whereas Hollands and Acres have a defensive mindset. I think we need to change that balance, I'd prefer to play Binns and Hollands as our first choice wingers next year. Binns has a few attributes that could help us unlock our ball movement, some examples of which are a) low and hard kicks, which get to the target faster b) not afraid to look inside or to change angles c) he often takes marks and kicks it 1-2 seconds later, he doesn't take 10 seconds to go back 15m and assess all options d) after kicking the ball he runs hard to present for a 1-2 and often loses his man whilst doing so. You can see most of these attributes in the video I linked below, needless to say, I think it's criminal that he hasn't been rewarded for his stellar VFL form.
Billy Wilson - Has speed and he's a good kick, I hope he plays seniors next year.
Ashton Moir - I'm less bullish on Moir, but if he were to improve his workrate, he'd be an asset to our ball movement with his dual sided kicking.
Lachie Cowan - I love Cowan, so much so that I want to clone him and play him across every line. He breaks tackles with such ease that it makes me wonder if he might not be better utilised as a mid, it probably doesn't do anything for our ball movement. However, I don't think we experiment with positions enough, and he's one who I think could play anywhere, I'd trial him in the midfield and forward line, just to see if it leads to better output.
Trade/FA
Liam Ryan - There's some drawbacks with this guy, he's only played 1 full season, and he's never kicked more than 30 goals. However, he's tough and fast, and better than any small forward we have on our list. I'd take him in a heartbeat for a future 1st.
Dan Houston - Port Adelaide will ask for the world, and I'd prefer to have a strong draft hand this year, as I rate this crop. Also, we have a greater need for good ball users in the midfield and forward line as opposed to the backline.
Jack Lukosius - Pass
I'd also be interested in any fringe/moneyball players that use the ball well, but none come to mind right now.
Draft
Realistic Targets for our 1st pick
Xavier Lindsay - I see shades of Merrett and McCluggage in him. He's a beautiful kick and a left footer too which would add some much needed variety to our midfield. We're the only team in the comp that doesn't have a left footed wingman or onballer in our best 22 (Acres, Hollands, Cripps, Walsh, Cerra, Kennedy, Hewett). I have him in my top 3 on a needs basis and top 10 on talent, Twomey has him ranked 16th in his latest form guide, so there's a good chance he's available at our pick (likely somewhere from 10-15).
I've linked some footage below if this has piqued your interest
Tobie Travaglia - A poor mans Nick Blakey imo, but that still makes him a very good prospect. Would give us another linebreaker off half back, and potentially allow us the flexibility to move someone like Wilson or even Saad up the ground.
Christian Moraes - Probably going to be a reach with our first, but he's a beautiful kick. I'd take him if Travaglia and Lindsay are off the board.
Joe Berry - Has speed and kicks goals, which I like. His field kicking is a little erratic which I don't like. I'd take him if the first three are off the board, but my preference would be to target small forwards with our later picks, or not at all if we land Liam Ryan.
F/S
Ben Camporeale - Not as hot on him as other Carlton supporters. I think he'd be ok value if bid on in the 50s, if Ben could kick he'd be a borderline top 10 prospect, but he kicks like Paddy Dow. We have enough of that in our midfield. I see him mostly as VFL depth.
Lucas Camporeale - I think Lucas has a higher ceiling than Ben, yes his output has been worse in u18s, but he can hit a target. Having said that, he seems overly cautious and passive with the ball in hand. I think you have a better chance of rectifying these flaws than kicking, which is why I have Lucas ahead.
Key Defender (options ranked in order of preference)
Trade/FA - No to Barrass, because WCE would want a 1st rounder. No to Haynes, he's old and undersized. Yes to Battle, because it would cost nothing, however, it's unlikely, as we lack the funds to compete with other suitors, and they're likely further down the road in negotiations. I think the best course is to go down the Moneyball path. I won't pretend to follow the state leagues closely enough to suggest candidates here. Anyone bigger than Kemp and better than Young/Durdin will do.
Shifting the Magnets - If the worst comes to worst and we can't land an upgrade, I'd try playing Silvagni as a defender. He's slightly taller than Kemp (although still undersized), and has acquitted himself well, in the few games he has played as a defender
Draft - I'd almost rule this out completely, because key position players take a while to develop and we're in position to contend now. I wouldn't say no to a developing KPD with a later pick, but I would prefer to use the earlier picks on kids who have elite disposal.
Conclusion
I think Austin knows that our ball movement has been an issue, hence the Wilson and Moir selections last year. However, I think he needs to take more drastic steps to address it. If he does and it doesn't lead to better performance next year or Voss persists with the one paced midfield, then I think we need to let Voss go. I think the positives of Austins tenure outweigh the negatives, his talent identification seems to be better than Silvagni's (you have to factor in the weaker hand), so I think we have a decent list manager, but this offseason will be telling. All in all, I think things could turn quite easily, kudos to anyone who reads all of this, you must be just as bored as I was when I wrote it.
BRADLESTICKS
Team Captain
- May 12, 2015
- 310
- 1,076
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Line up Hewett, Kennedy, Cerra, Elijah, Carrol, Lord, Cripps and then Berry and race them over any distance under 50 meters who wins ? Iām backing Cripps which is pretty sad really because the only slight flaw in the skippers game in the past has been leg speed.
I hope the Berry rumour isnāt true sometimes I feel like our recruiters choose the players they target from a laptop instead of watching players closely.
I hope the Berry rumour isnāt true sometimes I feel like our recruiters choose the players they target from a laptop instead of watching players closely.
- Aug 20, 2019
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If we get even one of these players we've had an unreal offseason. All of them fill roles we are screaming out for. Not sure if any of them want to move though, and if they do I don't know if will have the best salary/trade to offer. I think this is the dream though.
- Sep 1, 2016
- 7,668
- 11,668
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Berry isn't slow.
bluebaggerjuls
Team Captain
- Oct 2, 2019
- 517
- 1,355
- AFL Club
- Carlton
I donāt mind Berry. Is under valued by his coaches. The problem is we are doubling down on the inside grunt, as opposed to pace and connection. Crazy Vossy is a thing.
- Aug 20, 2019
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Top speed isn't slow but his acceleration is not good at all, takes a while for him to get going. He's a strong tackler for sure, but half the reason he averages so many tackles is because he's second to the ball a lot, which is not what we need more of. Plus add on weak disposal and decision making and I really don't understand why we're looking at him unless we plan on moving on Kennedy/Hewett, which I also can't understand doing.
- Jun 10, 2016
- 1,064
- 8,906
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Welcome to Carlton
BRADLESTICKS
Team Captain
- May 12, 2015
- 310
- 1,076
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Watch more than a short highlights video of him for an AFL midfielder he is slow, terrific tackler and provides good pressure inside the contest but the main reason he doesnāt get regular games or is sub for the crows is heās slow and they already have a slow midfield.
- Apr 4, 2018
- 17,127
- 35,450
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BringFevBack2021
Norm Smith Medallist
- May 9, 2021
- 7,485
- 16,322
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Sam Berry would be there to ensure that when Cripps (29), Hewett (28) and Kennedy (27) start to get on in age that our midfield still has genuine contested ball winning power
Pros:
Cons:
If we can get him for hardly anything I think itās a huge addition to the list, and with Ben Campo coming in it ensures we have contested ball winners post-Cripps era
Would love to hear that we are into Rivers or Caleb Daniel though
Pros:
- Elite tackler
- Great intent
- Can play forward
- Very big tank
- Strong
- Wins hard ball and clearance
Cons:
- Relatively slow
- Poor by foot
If we can get him for hardly anything I think itās a huge addition to the list, and with Ben Campo coming in it ensures we have contested ball winners post-Cripps era
Would love to hear that we are into Rivers or Caleb Daniel though
- Mar 25, 2019
- 11,362
- 22,712
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Cripps
Kennedy
Hewett
Cerra
Lord
Carroll
Ben Campo
S.Berry
Someone put a bullet in me
Kennedy
Hewett
Cerra
Lord
Carroll
Ben Campo
S.Berry
Someone put a bullet in me
BringFevBack2021
Norm Smith Medallist
- May 9, 2021
- 7,485
- 16,322
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If Melbourne are actually into Cerra it would be remiss of us to not pursue that
If you can get Rivers out plus a pick our way thatās huge / if you could get Petracca out and our first + F2 then obviously that speaks for itself
- Aug 20, 2019
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Berry for cheap PLUS a quick mid that uses the ball well would be incredible.
Sam Berry and nothing else is a disaster.
Iām not sure that Iād say heās āslippedā so much as when the journos who do their lists got to the stage of putting out proper Top 30s post Championships that heās borderline.
It seems to be an incredibly even draft, and F/S usually get bid on later than their actual value.
- Jul 13, 2018
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Last time I checked we're not part of South Australia
BRADLESTICKS
Team Captain
- May 12, 2015
- 310
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Donāt forget Elijah, Fog, Owies, Motlop, Williams and C.Durdin as the half forward options who all are below average for speed compared to other sides half forward options.
- Mar 25, 2019
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If they're into Cerra id suggest just taking the pick and getting Sid Draper in the draft so we've got the best midfield in the comp deep into the late 2020s.
Walsh
Walker
Draper
B.Campo
Elijah
However then the question becomes whether that core would be up and going before Charlie, H and Weiters etc start declining.
This off season should be interesting to say the least
BringFevBack2021
Norm Smith Medallist
- May 9, 2021
- 7,485
- 16,322
- AFL Club
- Carlton
Get Dank and the Weapon in to jab steroids directly into the quads, hammies and glutes of all the mids and have them do plyometrics and sprints all pre season
Just roids, sprints and plyoās every day
Numero 31
Debutant
- Mar 8, 2023
- 53
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- Melbourne
Melbourne rate Rivers. I think they extended his conteact recently. He has been filling in for Petracca in midfield on occasions since his injury and performing well. A 23 year old Premiership defender with 100 games in him who can also go into the midfield would be a great trade acquisition. Doubt the Dees would be interested in trading him though.
