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List Mgmt. 2024 List Management Part 2 š
- Thread starter Aphrodite
- Start date
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- Mar 25, 2019
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I would literally pay per interview to be allowed to watch on a camera the list team and Vossy giving it to them
- Apr 16, 2008
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I like the additions youāve mentioned but having another year older Cripps, Hewett and Walsh as our starting midfield when we stunk it up yesterday but not only yesterday but the past 2 or so months fills me with even less confidence. The engine room is a big part of our problem imo
Lordā¦ā¦.Cooper Lord
- Mar 25, 2019
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Switkowski can play genuine on ball minutes as a defensive pressure mid. Has for Freo a few times and imo is very underutilized in that role. Walsh at full fitness is a different beast to what we saw the back half of this year too, need to hope he can get a clean run through pre season.
I'd also like to see Cowan played through there, think his handballing in tight and tackling are almost his best assets at this level so I'd like to see it maximised more. Being a good kick in juniors is a whole different ball game to at AFL level, as is intercepting. I think he'd provide a line breaking power to our midfield mix like Trent Rivers at Melbourne.
Cripps
Walsh
Hewett
Cerra
Switkowski
Cowan
Still not perfect, but it provides a few different options rather than just a the same line up with different names while we have Kennedy, Cerra and Hewett all together. Think thats the best we can hope for before Cody Walker comes along, 4 core mids with rotations from some half backs and half forwards who provide a bit of a different look.
Iād pay double to hear them give it back to him
Voss to player X: "Mate, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your time is up at the club".
X: "What do you mean?"
Voss: "Well you haven't gotten to work?"
X: "Huh, I've showed up every training session and rehab on time and put in 100%"
Voss: "Don't think you understand what I mean there."
X: "None of us understand half the things you go on about, we just nod our heads to be polite and show the humbleness that is our clubs mantra".
Voss: "Just don't think you've been consistent".
X: "Huh, one week I'm told to do this, the next that, get demoted the next and off to the VFL to play another role. Bit hard to show consistency."
Voss: "I meant to say you haven't found the best version of yourself, and I think you'll find it elsewhere".
X: "Hate to be the bearer of bad news but it's nigh on impossible to ever be perfect and find the best version consistently. Our best version today might not be the required best version of how the game evolves tomorrow. Thus you're always going to need to find a better or different version of yourself."
Voss (pointing out the window): "A car thief".
X, turns their head... door slams... Voss is gone.
Beyond Blue
Premiership Player
- Jun 25, 2021
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I reckon we have a lot of low IQ players or players who try to do too much and in doing so break the āteam rulesā. Voss often talks about āfailure to executeā post game when we lose so I reckon thatās what heās referencing.
It also doesnāt help when the some of the repeat offenders are players like Walsh and Charlie who arenāt exactly going to be dropped as punishment. Thereās a lot of things that can be pinged on Voss but Iām not sure that this is one of them.
- Oct 16, 2016
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The one I would keep is Hewett.
The Old Dark Navy's
Moderator
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Seems so simple right?
circusdevil
Debutant
Could Boyd play through the middle? Has pace. Good kick. Bit of mongrel in him...
- Mar 25, 2019
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Think it would be more like...
Voss to player X: Mate, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your defensive running is insipid and you couldn't hit a target by foot if your life depended on it
X: I kicked 3 goals against so and so once though!
Voss: As they always say on The Apprentice, you're fired.
Rinse and repeat for the entire small forward group outside of Fogarty.
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So youād trade him on one disappointing season?
Who else would you get rid of and bring in?
How would it make the list better?
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Player X: "But pre-game you're telling me this, during game Hanson is telling me that, and at each break Jordan Russell is telling me the complete opposite.".
Voss: "Ah also indicates you have no footy IQ, you're still fired!"
Itās not (just) Voss, itās the entire coaching group failing to drill the players enough en masse. Although part of it certainly the lack of cohesion due to constant injury change to the side, part of it is not being drilled enough for players to know where to position themselves around stoppage and contest, where to move to, where and when to release the ball.
Our appalling ability around defensive stoppages cannot be blamed on stupid players. Itās not that complicated of a game, we just havenāt been drilled enough.
- Aug 20, 2019
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Bro, he had a child literally hours before the game and STILL rocked up to Brisbane to play, only to be subbed out half way through the second because of a match selection issue that everyone saw except the panel apparently. I'd be absolutely fuming too.
- Nov 21, 2015
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Iād definitely try him there.
This is one of the things the club needs to get better at imo.
Try other more pace players through the midfield eg. Boyd/cowan/wilson/cinc
We need to be more proactive/ creative with what we have on the list
I have a different perspective to those who think we should just be layering in speed or whatever bit pieces we can shake out elsewhere. I don't think you should copy the latest trend - instead, I think you lock down your stars and build around them, and in so doing create the NEXT trend across the league.
Having Curnow and McKay lends itself to a different game plan to Collingwood and so be it. We need to lean into our stars, evaluate the list and build around that.
Then when you evaluate the list, it is clear where the problems are.
Tier 1 players: stars (regardless of position) - AA calibre, game-breakers, etc. Can play any position, you build around them:
- Cripps, Curnow, McKay, Weitering, Walsh, Saad (although getting old). TDK possibly emerging here
Tier 2 players: non-star players, but veteran, high profile players, who typically play structural positions (key positions, intercept defenders, midfielders, running half backs, etc) around the stars. You want consistency here:
- McGovern, Martin, Docherty, Cerra, Williams, Hewett, Newman, Marchbank, Acres and arguably Silvagni. I would include Kennedy (but Voss uses him differently)
Tier 3 players: Role players. Can be best 22, or backups that you expect to be able to 'do a job'. Typically - can be general defenders, hff or wings, third talls/second key defenders, taggers, forward pockets, etc.
- Cottrell, Cowan, Motlop, Owies, Fogarty, Carroll, Kemp, C Durdin, both Hollands brothers, Young, Carroll, Cincotta, probably Pittonet (I think started the year Tier 2, but is firmly a backup to TDK now), Cuningham, Boyd, S Durdin,
Tier 4 players: typically developing/project players. If you are lucky they might get a game or two, but typically you are looking to the future with them
- Lets go with Lemmey, Lord, Moir, Mirkov, Binns, Wilson and the rookie listed guys
When you evaluate that, the things that jump out are:
1. I think we have ENOUGH Tier 1 players, but unusually, they are all 'spine' players. No wings, small forward, running defenders, etc. It's a bit one dimensional... fine when the game is on our terms
2. We have decent depth in Tier 3 players; they're fine, as long as they are only needed to play a role.
3. Tier 2 is an unmitigated disaster. Firstly, it's comprised almost entirely of players brought in from other clubs. We simply haven't been able to develop our own Tier 2 guys in eons (seriously - who was the last good B-grader the club developed from scratch? Kade Simpson?)
4. Tier 2 has been gutted by injury this year: Docherty/Marchbank/Silvagni/Martin as non-starters, McGovern/Cerra/Williams heavily affected, and even Acres running on fumes by the end.
All of our biggest issues stem from our disastrous Tier 2 IMO. Poor inside 50s? Slow? Low impact from non-star players? That's what happens when you get zero from most of your Tier 2 guys. Did Durdin/Motlop/Fantasia/Kemp look awful up forward yesterday? Yep, but they shouldn't even be playing at once, but with Curnow/Martin/Silvagni and Williams all giving nothing, well there they were.
Our successful runs across the past two years have coincided with Tier 2 being fit, healthy and consistent. Our worst runs have coincided (typically) with Tier 2 injuries. That's not surprising. those are the core of the team, and the type of player Geelong finds hidden all the time.
I don't totally know the solution, but our aim in list management HAS to be something like:
Goal 1: Build reliability and consistency in our Tier 2:
- delist/trade out the unreliable Tier 2 of the team. The most important 'ability' for a footballer is 'availability' and our Tier 2 has been awful. And with Docherty/Silvagni coming off ACL injuries, that's probably the limit on what we can carry in Tier 2 that is risky. That's Cerra/Martin/Marchbank/Williams/Cuningham all gone.
- Invest in young guys to fill/replace these spots, even if it means a step back next year (I don't think it does - younger, lesser guys in Tier 2 spots, but more consistency will get us to at least mid-table again). Layer Silvagni, Kennedy,
- DRAFT and develop the next tier 2 guys, and make this the biggest emphasis of everything we do. Ben Camporeale is a potential Tier 2 midfielder. Ok, but what young running half-backs do we have? What young KPD (not a limited stopper like Young, but who is the next McGovern who can intercept and set up play?)? Lemmey isn't cutting it as even a positional KPF? I think we desperately need to try and get TWO picks in before Ben Camporeale (one of the mids, and I think there is a single KPF this year who should be there at 10). Cerra + our Future First to Melbourne for pick 6? Then use our own pick 10? And add THREE potential Tier 2 guys
Goal 2: Consider remodelling our Tier 1 structure to get someone on the 'outside' so we are a little less one-dimensional. Some theoretical options include:
Hmmm... a lot to play out, but that's where my head is at today after the awfulness of last night...
Having Curnow and McKay lends itself to a different game plan to Collingwood and so be it. We need to lean into our stars, evaluate the list and build around that.
Then when you evaluate the list, it is clear where the problems are.
Tier 1 players: stars (regardless of position) - AA calibre, game-breakers, etc. Can play any position, you build around them:
- Cripps, Curnow, McKay, Weitering, Walsh, Saad (although getting old). TDK possibly emerging here
Tier 2 players: non-star players, but veteran, high profile players, who typically play structural positions (key positions, intercept defenders, midfielders, running half backs, etc) around the stars. You want consistency here:
- McGovern, Martin, Docherty, Cerra, Williams, Hewett, Newman, Marchbank, Acres and arguably Silvagni. I would include Kennedy (but Voss uses him differently)
Tier 3 players: Role players. Can be best 22, or backups that you expect to be able to 'do a job'. Typically - can be general defenders, hff or wings, third talls/second key defenders, taggers, forward pockets, etc.
- Cottrell, Cowan, Motlop, Owies, Fogarty, Carroll, Kemp, C Durdin, both Hollands brothers, Young, Carroll, Cincotta, probably Pittonet (I think started the year Tier 2, but is firmly a backup to TDK now), Cuningham, Boyd, S Durdin,
Tier 4 players: typically developing/project players. If you are lucky they might get a game or two, but typically you are looking to the future with them
- Lets go with Lemmey, Lord, Moir, Mirkov, Binns, Wilson and the rookie listed guys
When you evaluate that, the things that jump out are:
1. I think we have ENOUGH Tier 1 players, but unusually, they are all 'spine' players. No wings, small forward, running defenders, etc. It's a bit one dimensional... fine when the game is on our terms
2. We have decent depth in Tier 3 players; they're fine, as long as they are only needed to play a role.
3. Tier 2 is an unmitigated disaster. Firstly, it's comprised almost entirely of players brought in from other clubs. We simply haven't been able to develop our own Tier 2 guys in eons (seriously - who was the last good B-grader the club developed from scratch? Kade Simpson?)
4. Tier 2 has been gutted by injury this year: Docherty/Marchbank/Silvagni/Martin as non-starters, McGovern/Cerra/Williams heavily affected, and even Acres running on fumes by the end.
All of our biggest issues stem from our disastrous Tier 2 IMO. Poor inside 50s? Slow? Low impact from non-star players? That's what happens when you get zero from most of your Tier 2 guys. Did Durdin/Motlop/Fantasia/Kemp look awful up forward yesterday? Yep, but they shouldn't even be playing at once, but with Curnow/Martin/Silvagni and Williams all giving nothing, well there they were.
Our successful runs across the past two years have coincided with Tier 2 being fit, healthy and consistent. Our worst runs have coincided (typically) with Tier 2 injuries. That's not surprising. those are the core of the team, and the type of player Geelong finds hidden all the time.
I don't totally know the solution, but our aim in list management HAS to be something like:
Goal 1: Build reliability and consistency in our Tier 2:
- delist/trade out the unreliable Tier 2 of the team. The most important 'ability' for a footballer is 'availability' and our Tier 2 has been awful. And with Docherty/Silvagni coming off ACL injuries, that's probably the limit on what we can carry in Tier 2 that is risky. That's Cerra/Martin/Marchbank/Williams/Cuningham all gone.
- Invest in young guys to fill/replace these spots, even if it means a step back next year (I don't think it does - younger, lesser guys in Tier 2 spots, but more consistency will get us to at least mid-table again). Layer Silvagni, Kennedy,
- DRAFT and develop the next tier 2 guys, and make this the biggest emphasis of everything we do. Ben Camporeale is a potential Tier 2 midfielder. Ok, but what young running half-backs do we have? What young KPD (not a limited stopper like Young, but who is the next McGovern who can intercept and set up play?)? Lemmey isn't cutting it as even a positional KPF? I think we desperately need to try and get TWO picks in before Ben Camporeale (one of the mids, and I think there is a single KPF this year who should be there at 10). Cerra + our Future First to Melbourne for pick 6? Then use our own pick 10? And add THREE potential Tier 2 guys
Goal 2: Consider remodelling our Tier 1 structure to get someone on the 'outside' so we are a little less one-dimensional. Some theoretical options include:
- Trade one of our Tier 1 guys for another Tier 1 who plays on the outside (ie: McKay for ????). Ok in theory, but these trades rarely happen anymore
- Repurpose Walsh to half back and into the Nick Daicos 'defender who runs wherever he wants and just racks up 35 touches)? Or Walsh to the Wing?
- Repurpose Cripps to half-forward into the Dustin Martin slot of "if I get a defender on me I go to the stoppage as an extra midfielder. If I get a mid tagging me I go to full forward. If I get a hybrid I take them to the wing and be a marking target, and then when the game is on the line I call my own number in the midfield and take over"
- Try some other ways of igniting our Tier 1 guys; Saad on-ball or on the wing in a more attacking role? Curnow to a utility role (on-ball, wing, CHF) and Harry as the deep forward?
Hmmm... a lot to play out, but that's where my head is at today after the awfulness of last night...
He could but IMO his best spot is down back
If we are going to make positional changes they need to be done before pre season starts and train in those roles
If fit our midfield is very good
Cripps is a star
Walsh is a star
Cerra is a star
Hewett is a very good workhorse
Elijah with a full pre season could be anything
Lord looks very good. Creative tough and classy
That is a heck of a midfield that can compete with anyone
Add Wilson who has leg speed and balance
Kemp who is big and could be anything
Charlie with midfield minutes ala Stringer but better
Cincotta has the toughness and skill to be a good mid
Can we add a Garcia, a Wicks to the mix or a top draft pick?
The question is can we get them all fit and will Voss trust anyone apart from his go to players
Cripps is a star
Walsh is a star
Cerra is a star
Hewett is a very good workhorse
Elijah with a full pre season could be anything
Lord looks very good. Creative tough and classy
That is a heck of a midfield that can compete with anyone
Add Wilson who has leg speed and balance
Kemp who is big and could be anything
Charlie with midfield minutes ala Stringer but better
Cincotta has the toughness and skill to be a good mid
Can we add a Garcia, a Wicks to the mix or a top draft pick?
The question is can we get them all fit and will Voss trust anyone apart from his go to players
- Jul 13, 2018
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We've missed Boyd's kicking...it's why I like Lyndsay so much, another way to break down opposition's defence
Beyond Blue
Premiership Player
- Jun 25, 2021
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Ok the stoppage stuff is different. That is 100% coaching. I was talking more so about things like the following
- Walsh not lowering his eyes or running past for a handball under pressure
- Saad running himself into trouble to get onto his left side
- Charlie ignoring teammates and blasting away at goal,
- Young and Williams not bodying up on defenders in marking contests in our D50
- Ollie trying to keep the ball in play and couching it up to the opposition instead of just allowing it to go out of bounds and reset
- Harry giving away silly frees in our forward line allowing the opposition to relieve the pressure
- Elijah ball watching at kick ins only for the ball to find his opponent whoās got free out the back
- Corey Durdin flying for pack marks in our F50
- Motlop often being behind the pack in our F50 instead of front and square running towards goals
I agree , we are a top 4 side ā¦ McGovern kicks that goal against Collingwood and kemp kicks that goal against st kilda we end 3rd , thatās how close we were and I reckon our season was average
We make a lot of dumb mistakes. I was screaming at the tv in frustration. Like why the **** would you handball to a player 1 meter away when youāre not about to be tackled?
But, a lot of these mistakes come from a lack of cohesion and confidence in the team (your Walsh, Saad, Charlie examples), and a lot come from lack of being drilled properly (your Young, Williams, Elijah, Durdin, Motlop examples).
Iād suggest that Geelong play smart footy not due to their recruiters having some brilliant secret IQ test, so much as their players being brilliantly coached and developed.
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