Training 2024 Pre-season training

[Norm De Guerre]

Freijah and perhaps O’Driscoll are legitimate attempts to solve this problem. The club deserves credit for that even if it’s a couple of years too late.

However neither could be expected to be ready to play senior football early in their first season out of juniors. Hence the ongoing merry go round of mature age hopefuls like Baker, Poulter etc. With a bit of luck one of those might make the grade.

There’s also Bedendo who might have made a winger by now (if not a HFF/HBF) but has had a wretched run with injuries.

So it’s not as if the club hasn’t tried.

Im not sure that the club deserves any credit at all for how they've tried to fill the gaping hole that is our wing merry go round.

Sure they probably couldn't have anticipated the cornerstone of our wing having to be shipped off to Melbourne because of his off-field indiscretions. However, even if Hunter was still on the list it glosses over the state of our wings over the last 5+ years. Hunter for all of his hard work was and remains an incredibly flawed player especially with his inability to move the ball forward and his propensity to stop, prop and kill all momentum. Having said that he would still be the best winger on our list be the length of the Flemington straight.

Williams holds down one wing not because he is good at it, but because there isn't a slot available in his preferred position on a hbf. That he is now the best of our wingers is an indicative as to how we have mishandled what is a vital role in todays game.

The problem is that the club may recognise the issue but as is their way they've looked too address it with cheap filler cast offs from other clubs. Instead of actually addressing the problem by trading or using its 1st or 2nd round draft capital where you are much more likely to fill a direct need. Freijah just feels like another over-hyped 3rd round of the draft long shot. Much the same as Bedendo is beginning to shape up as in the way Fergus Greene was. Unlike Poulter and Baker Im not willing to put a line through them given they have little exposed form, but the likelihood of either being the winger that we require feels a little like wish fulfilment to me.

 

[doggies ftw]

Im not sure that the club deserves any credit at all for how they've tried to fill the gaping hole that is our wing merry go round.

Sure they probably couldn't have anticipated the cornerstone of our wing having to be shipped off to Melbourne because of his off-field indiscretions. However, even if Hunter was still on the list it glosses over the state of our wings over the last 5+ years. Hunter for all of his hard work was and remains an incredibly flawed player especially with his inability to move the ball forward and his propensity to stop, prop and kill all momentum. Having said that he would still be the best winger on our list be the length of the Flemington straight.

Williams holds down one wing not because he is good at it, but because there isn't a slot available in his preferred position on a hbf. That he is now the best of our wingers is an indicative as to how we have mishandled what is a vital role in todays game.

The problem is that the club may recognise the issue but as is their way they've looked too address it with cheap filler cast offs from other clubs. Instead of actually addressing the problem by trading or using its 1st or 2nd round draft capital where you are much more likely to fill a direct need. Freijah just feels like another over-hyped 3rd round of the draft long shot. Much the same as Bedendo is beginning to shape up as in the way Fergus Greene was. Unlike Poulter and Baker Im not willing to put a line through them given they have little exposed form, but the likelihood of either being the winger that we require feels a little like wish fulfilment to me.

We’ve used our first rounders on Marra, Darcy, Sanders and Buss who fillled a much bigger need than wing - which one are you giving up?

We definitely need a good winger or two but you don’t usually spend big on wings, which wings going around have been traded for high picks or drafted high? I’m sure there’s a few but off the top of my head nothing really comes to mind.

it’s a position of need and they’re of growing importance in the modern game, I don’t think they’re anywhere near important enough to be the difference between us making finals or not. Basically chuck anyone there that understands the role and can run and it’s not going to significantly hamper you if the rest of the team is good enough

 

[Doggy]

The ones we are looking at certainly won't be cheap.

Which ones?

 

[Dale4captain]

Which ones?

We’re trying to nab Liam Duggan as a free agent.

 

[Doggy]

We’re trying to nab Liam Duggan as a free agent.

Yeah, knew the interest there. Though he primarily played in the backline

 

[Libba39]

It speaks volumes for how much of a mess our wings are that he and Poulter are serious candidates to fill one or both wing roles next week.

Ive seen nothing over the pre-season that suggests we are any closer to settling this issue than we were a year ago.

Its an indictment on the club that we are likely to see another season of musical chairs rotating a long list second stringers in search of a solution again this year.

During last weeks game when the Hawks went on a 5 goal spree in the second it was a direct result of how poor our wings were at stopping the hawks going directly through the wings. We only wrested control of that game in the second half because our mids lifted as the Hawks tired. The wings will be the achilles heal of our side all season and will probably be the difference between us making finals and wasting another season.

Wow, way to be positive....

Without injuries we could easily have Bailey Smith and Macrae out there....

Yep the jury is out on Poulter, but Williams has found his niche and can kick a goal from outside 50. JJ can easily slot in too.

I guess its all about perspective.

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[threenewpadlocks]

We definitely need a good winger or two but you don’t usually spend big on wings, which wings going around have been traded for high picks or drafted high? I’m sure there’s a few but off the top of my head nothing really comes to mind.

Ed Langdon, Brad Hill, Karl Amon, Blake Acres, Brandon Ellis, Isaac Smith, Rory Atkins, Xavier Duursma, Liam Henry etc.

Throw in a few weaker fringe types that not as good as the players above but arguably better than the Baker and Poulter types in Jeremy Sharp, Massimo D'Ambrosio and Dylan Stephens.

These players would have been on decent coin when recruited.

Mason Wood maybe a category of his own because while he had proven more at AFL level he was a genuine delistee when Saints picked him up and converted him from a forward to a winger. But it's still a more respectful approach to the position than what we've shown.

The extent that I reckon wingers in the last few years that we went hard at was GWS's Xavier O'Halloran and Miles Bergman, who both ended up staying with the clubs that drafted them but at times looked like a decent chance of leaving. But clearly we didn't throw our hat enough into the above list.

I agree that our top draft picks, having Treloar fall into our lap, less draft assets because of high ladder finishing positions have limited ourselves somewhat. But Poulter and Baker were both in effect delisted from their clubs - we wanted to recruit these positions on the cheap, rather than have to take a bit of a risk but pay above for someone who had proven slightly more at AFL level.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Wow, way to be positive....

Without injuries we could easily have Bailey Smith and Macrae out there....

Yep the jury is out on Poulter, but Williams has found his niche and can kick a goal from outside 50. JJ can easily slot in too.

I guess its all about perspective.

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Smith, Macrae and JJ aren't wingmen and haven't played there in years though. They don't have the positional requirements to start on the wing at a typical centre bounce, hold their positionally, etc.

The fact that Williams - who is not even playing his best or natural position in his defence - is our best wingman and "can find a niche" is proving the very point about our weakness in the position. He would barely be touching top 20 in the position.

By definition as a mid-table team, we should have about the 10th and 30th best wingers in the league

But please tell me which of these wing players you would rather have Williams over:
J. Daicos, M. Wood, N. Martin, S. Sidebottom, B. Acres, B. Ellis, L. Hunter, B. Scott, J. Ross, J. Berry, C. Jones, J. Aish, J. Soligo, Z. Tuohy, L. Henry, E. Langdon, A. Gaff, J. McInerney, S. Durham, B. Campbell, J. Fletcher.

This isn't even counting some players that are fringe wing/inside midfielders such as J. Crisp, M. Holmes, S. Docherty, J. Ward, F. Callaghan, B. Fiorini.

Maybe some of them aren't true wing players - I am going off Champion Data listed midfielders who have very limited centre bounce attendances - but you get the point. I've juste listed 28 players who are arguably "wings" and would also arguably be better than Williams and be our best wing player. In an 18-team competition, that shows you the utter weakness we have in the position.

 

[Mojorisin]

Which ones?

Holmes and Mccluggage are the big ones and are obviously of interest.

 

[Libba39]

Smith, Macrae and JJ aren't wingmen and haven't played there in years though. They don't have the positional requirements to start on the wing at a typical centre bounce, hold their positionally, etc.

The fact that Williams - who is not even playing his best or natural position in his defence - is our best wingman and "can find a niche" is proving the very point about our weakness in the position. He would barely be touching top 20 in the position.

By definition as a mid-table team, we should have about the 10th and 30th best wingers in the league

But please tell me which of these wing players you would rather have Williams over:
J. Daicos, M. Wood, N. Martin, S. Sidebottom, B. Acres, B. Ellis, L. Hunter, B. Scott, J. Ross, J. Berry, C. Jones, J. Aish, J. Soligo, Z. Tuohy, L. Henry, E. Langdon, A. Gaff, J. McInerney, S. Durham, B. Campbell, J. Fletcher.

This isn't even counting some players that are fringe wing/inside midfielders such as J. Crisp, M. Holmes, S. Docherty, J. Ward, F. Callaghan, B. Fiorini.

Maybe some of them aren't true wing players - I am going off Champion Data listed midfielders who have very limited centre bounce attendances - but you get the point. I've juste listed 28 players who are arguably "wings" and would also arguably be better than Williams and be our best wing player. In an 18-team competition, that shows you the utter weakness we have in the position.

Sorry I just can't fathom the negativity on here. Its like we're finally looking good in most positions and all the nancies have decided that the season lives or dies on our wings....

#woethewings

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[Mojorisin]

We’ve used our first rounders on Marra, Darcy, Sanders and Buss who fillled a much bigger need than wing - which one are you giving up?

We definitely need a good winger or two but you don’t usually spend big on wings, which wings going around have been traded for high picks or drafted high? I’m sure there’s a few but off the top of my head nothing really comes to mind.

it’s a position of need and they’re of growing importance in the modern game, I don’t think they’re anywhere near important enough to be the difference between us making finals or not. Basically chuck anyone there that understands the role and can run and it’s not going to significantly hamper you if the rest of the team is good enough

Now that the wing role is in vogue and holds greater importance with the faster game style we have seen wingmen drafted earlier then they perhaps would have previously. With Jaspa Fletcher and Ollie Hollands going in the first round in 2022 and Windsor and Darcy Wilson in 2023.

 

[Mofra]

Now that the wing role is in vogue and holds greater importance with the faster game style we have seen wingmen drafted earlier then they perhaps would have previously. With Jaspa Fletcher and Ollie Hollands going in the first round in 2022 and Windsor and Darcy Wilson in 2023.

McLuggage went at pick 3 and was a wing for the early years of his career (and one of the best on the comp at it).

 

[doggies ftw]

Ed Langdon, Brad Hill, Karl Amon, Blake Acres, Brandon Ellis, Isaac Smith, Rory Atkins, Xavier Duursma, Liam Henry etc.

Throw in a few weaker fringe types that not as good as the players above but arguably better than the Baker and Poulter types in Jeremy Sharp, Massimo D'Ambrosio and Dylan Stephens.

These players would have been on decent coin when recruited.

Mason Wood maybe a category of his own because while he had proven more at AFL level he was a genuine delistee when Saints picked him up and converted him from a forward to a winger. But it's still a more respectful approach to the position than what we've shown.

The extent that I reckon wingers in the last few years that we went hard at was GWS's Xavier O'Halloran and Miles Bergman, who both ended up staying with the clubs that drafted them but at times looked like a decent chance of leaving. But clearly we didn't throw our hat enough into the above list.

I agree that our top draft picks, having Treloar fall into our lap, less draft assets because of high ladder finishing positions have limited ourselves somewhat. But Poulter and Baker were both in effect delisted from their clubs - we wanted to recruit these positions on the cheap, rather than have to take a bit of a risk but pay above for someone who had proven slightly more at AFL level.

Thats not exactly a list of big names though - that proves my point really. Acres traded for an F3, Amon FA was worth a 2nd round compo so not a huge contract, Duursma was a player swap worth **** all, Henry future 2nd, Atkins & Ellis nothing FAs - Sharp & Dmassimo were DFA

None of these guys are even worth being in the consideration for a first round pick, their draft position is irrelevant now.

There has been a few higher draft picks taken recently but the results remain to be seen and I’d expect usually clubs have higher ambitions than wing for those guys. Brisbane for eg didn’t take Mcluggage at pick 3 expecting him to be a long term wing.

Point is clubs aren’t really using first rounders on wingers so I’m not sure why we’d expect us to

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Thats not exactly a list of big names though - that proves my point really. Acres traded for an F3, Amon FA was worth a 2nd round compo so not a huge contract, Duursma was a player swap worth * all, Henry future 2nd, Atkins & Ellis nothing FAs - Sharp & Dmassimo were DFA

None of these guys are even worth being in the consideration for a first round pick, their draft position is irrelevant now.

There has been a few higher draft picks taken recently but the results remain to be seen and I’d expect usually clubs have higher ambitions than wing for those guys. Brisbane for eg didn’t take Mcluggage at pick 3 expecting him to be a long term wing.

Point is clubs aren’t really using first rounders on wingers so I’m not sure why we’d expect us to

My first point is that it was a) a desire to recruit established AFL proven on-field talent and b) a commitment at the draft and salary level to pay more than the absolute bare minimum such as DFA and mid-season draft picks just hasn't occured by us.

So I get that, as a random example, Blake Acres isn't a superstar, isn't earning huge money and wasn't a huge trade investment by Carlton.

But he still was an established, proven on-field performer when he was recruited, still demanded a multi-year contract well above the minimum amounts, and still required draft assets of some sort to get him, rather than just the nothing.

I actually agree with you that the wing positions are not that important, because and player who is truly first-round worthy as a wing player would naturally be so good that they would move on the ball, a bit like McCluggage has over the last few years and other players like Andrew Gaff have done over the last decade.

Compare for example to us recruiting Jackson Trengove in 2017 (~1.75 million over 4 years) and Lobb ($1.5 million over 3 years). Neither would be considered minor recruits from us at the time, but some of these wingers went for bigger money:

Karl Amon - $2.6 million over 4 years
Rory Atkins - $2 million over 5 years
Brandon Ellis - $3 million over 5 years
Blake Acres: $1.05 million over 3 years
Brad Hill: 800k p/y

I'm not saying these contracts are valuable or good deals bye the clubs per se, just that the clubs have invested a fair chunk of salary (figures that sometimes even exceed e.g. what we paid for Lobb, which people want to claim is a significant salary cap investment by the club), which by its logic means that they were also clear salary cap investments by their respective club.

Players like Stephens, D'Ambrosio and Sharp had their selection of multiple clubs. Like I have no clue what Hawthorn are paying D'Ambriosio, but it was widely reported as a surprise recruitment when Hawthorn outbidded Essendon's mere one-year extension (two or three year contract on at least equivalent money) which therefore to create an outbidding situation is by its nature greater equivalent investment by Hawks than ours to Baker and Poulter.

 

[doggies ftw]

JOD and Macrae not on the track apparently today, think we can rule them out of round 1 unfortunately

 

[Foxman98]

JOD and Macrae not on the track apparently today, think we can rule them out of round 1 unfortunately

Why? we still have 9 days till our game

 

[doggies ftw]

My first point is that it was a) a desire to recruit established AFL proven on-field talent and b) a commitment at the draft and salary level to pay more than the absolute bare minimum such as DFA and mid-season draft picks just hasn't occured by us.

So I get that, as a random example, Blake Acres isn't a superstar, isn't earning huge money and wasn't a huge trade investment by Carlton.

But he still was an established, proven on-field performer when he was recruited, still demanded a multi-year contract well above the minimum amounts, and still required draft assets of some sort to get him, rather than just the nothing.

I actually agree with you that the wing positions are not that important, because and player who is truly first-round worthy as a wing player would naturally be so good that they would move on the ball, a bit like McCluggage has over the last few years and other players like Andrew Gaff have done over the last decade.

Compare for example to us recruiting Jackson Trengove in 2017 (~1.75 million over 4 years) and Lobb ($1.5 million over 3 years). Neither would be considered minor recruits from us at the time, but some of these wingers went for bigger money:

Karl Amon - $2.6 million over 4 years
Rory Atkins - $2 million over 5 years
Brandon Ellis - $3 million over 5 years
Blake Acres: $1.05 million over 3 years
Brad Hill: 800k p/y

I'm not saying these contracts are valuable or good deals bye the clubs per se, just that the clubs have invested a fair chunk of salary (figures that sometimes even exceed e.g. what we paid for Lobb, which people want to claim is a significant salary cap investment by the club), which by its logic means that they were also clear salary cap investments by their respective club.

Players like Stephens, D'Ambrosio and Sharp had their selection of multiple clubs. Like I have no clue what Hawthorn are paying D'Ambriosio, but it was widely reported as a surprise recruitment when Hawthorn outbidded Essendon's mere one-year extension (two or three year contract on at least equivalent money) which therefore to create an outbidding situation is by its nature greater equivalent investment by Hawks than ours to Baker and Poulter.

Yeah don’t get me wrong I’d like us to invest there now, but I can see why we’ve prioritised other areas first and there hasn’t exactly been much on offer recently, we had a crack at Henry but I think the price was too high. Anyway it seems like we’re targeting the area now that we’ve locked up most other positions, I just don’t think it’s going to make or break our year, even with how dire our wing stocks are

 

[doggies ftw]

Why? we still have 9 days till our game

Macrae maybe but seems he’s gone backwards since his VFL hit out, and JOD hasn’t had a preseason hit out yet so I can’t imagine we’ll bring him in off zero game time.

There’s 9 days sure but they’re definitely still underdone at this stage

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Yeah don’t get me wrong I’d like us to invest there now, but I can see why we’ve prioritised other areas first and there hasn’t exactly been much on offer recently, we had a crack at Henry but I think the price was too high. Anyway it seems like we’re targeting the area now that we’ve locked up most other positions, I just don’t think it’s going to make or break our year, even with how dire our wing stocks are

At the end of the day our big salary investments over the last 6-7 years for that we didn't draft and develop ourselves have almost exclusively been talls (Schache, Trengove, Bruce, Keath, O'Brien, Lobb, Jones).

Arguably Treloar and maybe Crozier and Duryea were the only players in this window that this didn't apply to that we paid any amount to, until Harmes. But still that's far more "talls" than "smalls" we recruited from other clubs paying more than a minimum amount on a multi-year salary in the post-2016 flag era.

I don't think it's coincidence - clearly this is a deliberate strategy by the club in how they assess how best to spend the currency of list management resources building a balanced list into the medium/long term.

So given that there's a direct cause an effect of lack of list management capitcal invesmtent into certain positions and those positions being weak, and such a weakness being obvious last year and it not being corrected tihsyear, discussing whether that was the right strategy is an entirely fair one.

 

[yebach]

I'm not one for throwing players around too much. But could we try Caleb Daniel

35

Caleb Daniel

Age

28

Ht

171cm

Wt

72kg

Pos.

M/F

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.3

5star

K

11.5

4star

HB

9.8

5star

M

3.5

4star

T

2.9

4star

CL

1.4

4star

D

19.5

4star

K

11.1

4star

HB

8.4

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

2.0

3star

CL

1.0

3star

D

16.4

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

9.2

5star

M

3.4

4star

T

2.6

4star

CL

0.2

2star

on a wing? From memory he played there a few seasons ago and was better than anything we have now. Then he was moved to Full Back.
Also, could JJ play on the wing?

 

[lachy]

Macrae maybe but seems he’s gone backwards since his VFL hit out, and JOD hasn’t had a preseason hit out yet so I can’t imagine we’ll bring him in off zero game time.

There’s 9 days sure but they’re definitely still underdone at this stage

Are they playing in the VFL practice match tomorrow morning for some match time?

 

[yebach]

Could Treloar play there also?

 

[stefoid]

Freijah and perhaps O’Driscoll are legitimate attempts to solve this problem. The club deserves credit for that even if it’s a couple of years too late.

However neither could be expected to be ready to play senior football early in their first season out of juniors. Hence the ongoing merry go round of mature age hopefuls like Baker, Poulter etc. With a bit of luck one of those might make the grade.

There’s also Bedendo who might have made a winger by now (if not a HFF/HBF) but has had a wretched run with injuries.

So it’s not as if the club hasn’t tried.

well, theres trying and theres trying. Using a late pick on a project draftee or a delisted player is low-risk, low-return. its fingers crossed for 3 years from now stuff

OTOH, with Sanders we TRIED to get a class midfielder. High-risk (in terms of resources) high return.

 

[lachy]

I agree we need to bolster our wings the way the game has moved. Why I am not sure why Dale has not been tried there. Others can play his role in defense but has been noted by all we do not have a genuine top level winger at the moment and with his move back Dale has developed all of the attributes required now

 

[threenewpadlocks]

I'm not one for throwing players around too much. But could we try Caleb Daniel on a wing? From memory he played there a few seasons ago and was better than anything we have now. Then he was moved to Full Back.
Also, could JJ play on the wing?

With Daniel, I would say it's far too easy for other teams to isolate his lack of height and take advantage of it when you know you can switch the play and back a player to beat Daniel in a marking 1v1. Such the weakness is that he needs to be "hidden" in greater congestion where the more that there's greater players around him, the less his lack of height matters as naturally packs will be formed in marking contests or he can use his main skill of being a very clean player below his knees and reading the ball of packs.

Being a wing is that for almost half of all stoppages - throw ins or ball-ups outside the centre square - you have a job on the 'fat side' and you're basically left on an island with a direct opponent with no teammates within 50m of you. If I were the other team and won the clearance I'd basically kick it straight to that one-on-one contest diagonoally from the clearance win, and if Daniel were outmarked you have a million options in open space to drive it inside 50.

With JJ, I guess his body is just not up to it given his recent injury history.

I agree we need to bolster our wings the way the game has moved. Why I am not sure why Dale has not been tried there. Others can play his role in defense but has been noted by all we do not have a genuine top level winger at the moment and with his move back Dale has developed all of the attributes required now

I agree Dale looks like he could be played there but I think it may be one of these:

• Simply doesn't have the athleticism/running capacity
• He isn't a natural at the position like he is reading the play down back, maybe we tried him there at training or something and it was obvious he got lost in stoppage traffic, positioning, structures, reaidng the play and knowing when to mark or peel off the opposition winger, etc.
• Maybe because in defence he turned himself from being outside the 22 to an All-Australian, there's no point rocking the boat and moving his position again for the risk that he will just regress back to the fringe player he was as a forward a few years ago. We also don't have the positional depth, so in essence it would just be Williams swapping with him on the wing, so there's really 'no point' to this move if Williams' output doesn't significantly improve on the half-back line to at least the same extent that Dale's would decrease moving to the wing.