USA 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris

[Chief]

 

[Bloods86]

I'd love you to explain why you think what I have written manifests historical and geopolitical ignorance, rather than just speaking in generalities.

Maybe you could provide some specifics to your claims too rather than just stating your opinion as fact.

But picking up on just one falsehood, what do you think Democrats specifically could have done, by themselves, and in keeping with democratic principles, to ensure that Trump was thrown in gaol? Edit: I see you take issue with pushback over trial delays, and then heaped on personal opinion as to why "Democrats" didn't want to get timely resolution.

You can argue the Democrats have been feckless in the past which leads to Republicans being popular enough to hold significant sway over judicial appointments that have helped Trump escape current and future punishment, and to interfere with state-based investigations/prosecution. But that is not the same as arguing they have options to just throw him in the slammer themselves, which they have not taken.

Biden's "strong Republican party" comments (thought it was Pelosi, but maybe he said it too), have no connection to Trump escaping punishment or condoning the MAGA section of the GOP, which he has made very clear, he is against.

 

[IlovethePies]

Maybe you could provide some specifics to your claims too rather than just stating your opinion as fact.

But picking up on just one falsehood, what do you think Democrats specifically could have done, by themselves, and in keeping with democratic principles, to ensure that Trump was thrown in gaol? Edit: I see you take issue with pushback over trial delays, and then heaped on personal opinion as to why "Democrats" didn't want to get timely resolution.

You can argue the Democrats have been feckless in the past which leads to Republicans being popular enough to hold significant sway over judicial appointments that have helped Trump escape current and future punishment, and to interfere with state-based investigations/prosecution. But that is not the same as arguing they have options to just throw him in the slammer themselves, which they have not taken.

Biden's "strong Republican party" comments (thought it was Pelosi, but maybe he said it too), have no connection to Trump escaping punishment or condoning the MAGA section of the GOP, which he has made very clear, he is against.

The Democrats, had they been interested in doing so, could have organised genuine enquiries into what actually transpired, who did what, during the coup attempt on Jan 6.
Instead, they organised enquiries whose sole purpose was to cover up the extent to which significant sections of the intelligence and military apparatus supported the coup, and to present the coup as just the work of one bogeyman, Donald Trump.

How the January 6 hearing covered up Trump’s co-conspirators

Last Thursday’s event whitewashed the role of the Pentagon, the Department of Homeland Security, and various Trump aides who supported the attack on the US Capitol.

www.wsws.org

They did this in order to avoid instigating an explosive conflict in the highest echelons of the capitalist state, which would have had unpredictable consequences and interrupted their main priority: continued escalation of the war in Ukraine. They also did this to avoid alerting the American population to the huge dangers that are posed to their democratic rights, because if this became widely understood, it would lead to explosive social unrest.

As for the "strong Republican party" comment, that was aimed at reassuring the Republican party that the Democrats would do nothing which could disturb the stability of the two capitalist party structure in the US.


It is pointless to ask what the Democrats could have done to imprison Trump. Because they defend capitalism and the interests of the US capitalist class, it was impossible for them to expose the full extent of Trump's attempted coup, and the full extent of the threat that he poses to US democracy.


That is the fundamental point. The Democrats are not a lesser evil to Trump. One cannot defend democracy in the US by supporting the Democrats.

 

[Bloods86]

The Democrats, had they been interested in doing so, could have organised genuine enquiries into what actually transpired, who did what, during the coup attempt on Jan 6.
Instead, they organised enquiries whose sole purpose was to cover up the extent to which significant sections of the intelligence and military apparatus supported the coup, and to present the coup as just the work of one bogeyman, Donald Trump.

How the January 6 hearing covered up Trump’s co-conspirators

Last Thursday’s event whitewashed the role of the Pentagon, the Department of Homeland Security, and various Trump aides who supported the attack on the US Capitol.

www.wsws.org

They did this in order to avoid instigating an explosive conflict in the highest echelons of the capitalist state, which would have had unpredictable consequences and interrupted their main priority: continued escalation of the war in Ukraine. They also did this to avoid alerting the American population to the huge dangers that are posed to their democratic rights, because if this became widely understood, it would lead to explosive social unrest.

As for the "strong Republican party" comment, that was aimed at reassuring the Republican party that the Democrats would do nothing which could disturb the stability of the two capitalist party structure in the US.


It is pointless to ask what the Democrats could have done to imprison Trump. Because they defend capitalism and the interests of the US capitalist class, it was impossible for them to expose the full extent of Trump's attempted coup.


That is the fundamental point. The Democrats are not a lesser evil to Trump. One cannot defend democracy in the US by supporting the Democrats.

As with other topics, you seem to be fixated on the least charitable interpretations of select actors, and reducing "both sides" to a similar level (or further), in ways that favour the authoritarians.

The Democrats have many flaws, being beholden in many instances to corporate and special interest groups among them, but some of this stuff is very shallow e.g. the Ukraine conspiracy again, the "no lesser evil" nonsense.

 

[IlovethePies]

As with other topics, you seem to be fixated on the least charitable interpretations of select actors, and reducing "both sides" to a similar level (or further), in ways that favour the authoritarians.

The Democrats have many flaws, being beholden in many instances to corporate and special interest groups among them, but some of this stuff is very shallow e.g. the Ukraine conspiracy again, the "no lesser evil" nonsense.

why would you wish to afford charity to any capitalist or imperialist politician whatsoever?

I don't disguise it: I am anti-all governments.

I have given you my explanation of why the Democrats are not a lesser evil. You have just called it nonsense, without explaining why.

That's ok, because I don't honestly believe you can. You are just operating under assumptions that you have long held, ie Democrats = "left", Republicans = "right" in US politics, and that is where it ends.

This is what I mean about subjecting one's underlying political assumptions to critical analysis. It can be painful. But it is also liberating.

 

[Blue1980]

Im yet to see any of the left in here say, "i got it wrong about Biden, he was unfit"

You missed me saying he had to go after the debate and me wanting him gone before the debate?

 

[Bloods86]

why would you wish to afford charity to any capitalist or imperialist politician whatsoever?

I don't disguise it: I am anti-all governments.

I have given you my explanation of why the Democrats are not a lesser evil. You have just called it nonsense, without explaining why.

That's ok, because I don't honestly believe you can. You are just operating under assumptions that you have long held, ie Democrats = "left", Republicans = "right" in US politics, and that is where it ends.

This is what I mean about subjecting one's underlying political assumptions to critical analysis. It can be painful. But it is also liberating.

Lol. The Democrats aren't left. Maybe a small minority are centre-left at best.

All I read was a load of personal opinion about the intentions of the Democrats.

If you want a differentiator, only one of the party's leaders, along with significant parts of its officials, representatives and base, either attempted to fraudulently overturn a presidential election, or were/are supportive of the many actions taken to subvert the will of the people.

Now, you can argue that the Democrats haven't taken premptive action to prevent this going unchecked, or didn't do enough in retaliation, but to equate the two is mindless and shows a blinding ideological capture.

 

[IlovethePies]

Lol. The Democrats aren't left. Maybe a small minority are centre-left at best.

...and there you have it, lesser evilism in a nutshell. However small, there is a tiny element of progressive elements in the Democratic party.

However, just one more question. If the differences, as you acknowledge, between the Democrats and Republicans are minimal, why are you (and others like you) focussing their full fire on Trump, without asking what is the way to stop Trump?

Because, if the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans is minimal, surely then supporting the Democrats might be a problematic perspective.

And if the Democrats are only minimally different to Trump, why are there so many here singing the praises of Harris??

 

[Contested Marx]

BREAKING:
pseudo-anarchist wants worst government in power

sport and weather at six

 

[FruitTingles]

I’m a Democrat who voted Trump in 2016 and 2020. I agree with *insert generic RT talking point, that’s why I left the left and am voting for Trump in 2024 again

Every time

 

[Seeds]

The Democrats, had they been interested in doing so, could have organised genuine enquiries into what actually transpired, who did what, during the coup attempt on Jan 6.
Instead, they organised enquiries whose sole purpose was to cover up the extent to which significant sections of the intelligence and military apparatus supported the coup, and to present the coup as just the work of one bogeyman, Donald Trump.

How the January 6 hearing covered up Trump’s co-conspirators

Last Thursday’s event whitewashed the role of the Pentagon, the Department of Homeland Security, and various Trump aides who supported the attack on the US Capitol.

www.wsws.org

They did this in order to avoid instigating an explosive conflict in the highest echelons of the capitalist state, which would have had unpredictable consequences and interrupted their main priority: continued escalation of the war in Ukraine. They also did this to avoid alerting the American population to the huge dangers that are posed to their democratic rights, because if this became widely understood, it would lead to explosive social unrest.

As for the "strong Republican party" comment, that was aimed at reassuring the Republican party that the Democrats would do nothing which could disturb the stability of the two capitalist party structure in the US.


It is pointless to ask what the Democrats could have done to imprison Trump. Because they defend capitalism and the interests of the US capitalist class, it was impossible for them to expose the full extent of Trump's attempted coup, and the full extent of the threat that he poses to US democracy.


That is the fundamental point. The Democrats are not a lesser evil to Trump. One cannot defend democracy in the US by supporting the Democrats.

What do you mean by continued escalation of the war in ukraine?

 

[IlovethePies]

Here are the only candidates in the US election who offer a way forward for the vast US working population:

The SEP launches its campaign for a socialist alternative in 2024 to Biden and Trump, the corporate candidates of war and dictatorship!

David North, the national chairman of the Socialist Equality Party (US), announced today the selection of Joe Kishore and Jerry White as the SEP's candidates in the 2024 presidential election campaign.

www.wsws.org

 

[Bloods86]

...and there you have it, lesser evilism in a nutshell. However small, there is a tiny element of progressive elements in the Democratic party.

However, just one more question. If the differences, as you acknowledge, between the Democrats and Republicans are minimal, why are you (and others like you) focussing their full fire on Trump, without asking what is the way to stop Trump?

Because, if the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans is minimal, surely then supporting the Democrats might be a problematic perspective.

And if the Democrats are only minimally different to Trump, why are there so many here singing the praises of Harris??

Who said the differences were minimal? I certainly didn't.

In a 2 way race, which is the reality confronting the US in this election, without any rational recourse available, then yeah, I'm "singing the praises of Harris" in comparison to the alternative.

There is no world in which voting for or supporting Democrats in this election cycle (and in the forseeable future), as opposed to the only alternative, is a "problematic perspective".

The best way to stop Trump is to prevent him holding office again, so he cannot further weaken/subvert the flawed democracy they maintain, by judicial and official appointments, and sabotaging what services the federal government still provides for the people.

You can live in an idealistic bubble, that's your right, but holding out for ideals has historically been a contributing factor to the rise of authoritarianism, whether you acknowledge it or not.

 

[IlovethePies]

What do you mean by continued escalation of the war in ukraine?

Hi, the article below explains the continued escalation of this war by the Biden administration. The immediately relevant paragraphs are: 12,13,14
The article was written on June 4, in response to the decision made by Biden, in secrecy, to allow the Ukrainian military to carry out long distance strikes with US missiles on Russian territory near Kharkiv:

Stop the US-NATO escalation toward nuclear war! Unite the international working class against imperialist war and genocide!

For the first time since the end of the Second World War, the US and its allies are directly targeting Russian territory.

www.wsws.org

Since then, the US and its NATO allies are on the verge of allowing Ukraine to use NATO and US long range missiles indiscriminately on the territory of Russia.

 

[Bloods86]

Hi, the article below explains the continued escalation of this war by the Biden administration. The immediately relevant paragraphs are: 12,13,14
The article was written on June 4, in response to the decision made by Biden, in secrecy, to allow the Ukrainian military to carry out long distance strikes with US missiles on Russian territory near Kharkiv:

Stop the US-NATO escalation toward nuclear war! Unite the international working class against imperialist war and genocide!

For the first time since the end of the Second World War, the US and its allies are directly targeting Russian territory.

www.wsws.org

Since then, the US and its NATO allies are on the verge of allowing Ukraine to use NATO and US long range missiles indiscriminately on the territory of Russia.

Yes, the "continued escalation" by the defensive side of the war.

Do you have any non fiction sources?

 

[Maggie5]

Hi, the article below explains the continued escalation of this war by the Biden administration. The immediately relevant paragraphs are: 12,13,14
The article was written on June 4, in response to the decision made by Biden, in secrecy, to allow the Ukrainian military to carry out long distance strikes with US missiles on Russian territory near Kharkiv:

Stop the US-NATO escalation toward nuclear war! Unite the international working class against imperialist war and genocide!

For the first time since the end of the Second World War, the US and its allies are directly targeting Russian territory.

www.wsws.org

Since then, the US and its NATO allies are on the verge of allowing Ukraine to use NATO and US long range missiles indiscriminately on the territory of Russia.

Seriously why do you almost always quote and use World Socialist Web Site as a source?

These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward liberal causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports, and omit information that may damage liberal causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy.
Overall, we rate the World Socialist Web Site (WSWS) as strongly Left Biased based on promoting anti-capitalist, socialist viewpoints. We also rate them as Mostly Factual in reporting rather than High due to the use of some sources that promote conspiracy theories.

 

[IlovethePies]

Who said the differences were minimal? I certainly didn't.

In a 2 way race, which is the reality confronting the US in this election, without any rational recourse available, then yeah, I'm "singing the praises of Harris" in comparison to the alternative.

There is no world in which voting for or supporting Democrats in this election cycle (and in the forseeable future), as opposed to the only alternative, is a "problematic perspective".

The best way to stop Trump is to prevent him holding office again, so he cannot further weaken/subvert the flawed democracy they maintain, by judicial and official appointments, and sabotaging what services the federal government still provides for the people.

You can live in an idealistic bubble, that's your right, but holding out for ideals has historically been a contributing factor to the rise of authoritarianism, whether you acknowledge it or not.

No, that is where you are wrong.
Failing to fight for socialism has paved the way for authoritarianism.

Cases in point: 1933 in Germany. The Stalinists sabotaged the fight of the working class against Hitler by opposing a united front. They split the working class, and allowed Hitler to come to power unopposed by the workers' movement. Had they adopted the united front, which was the program of socialism, Hitler would never have come to power.

Chile: the Allende government, and its Stalinist and pseudo left supporters, demobilised the working class, telling workers that they could achieve their aims through Parliament. This allowed Pinochet to carry out a fascist coup in which countless thousands of socialist workers were murdered and tortured, and the establishment of a brutal military dictatorship.

You have just confirmed that you do believe the Democrats are a lesser evil. But the Democrats are the enablers of trump. They are not the same politically as Trump, but they are the ones who have allowed Trump to reach the point where he could now possibly win the election.

Therefore, supporting the Democrats, far from stopping the slide into dictatorship, will allow it to happen.

There is only one way to stop the slide into dictatorship in the US and imperialist war, that is by fighting for the development of a socialist program in the US working class.

The SEP launches its campaign for a socialist alternative in 2024 to Biden and Trump, the corporate candidates of war and dictatorship!

David North, the national chairman of the Socialist Equality Party (US), announced today the selection of Joe Kishore and Jerry White as the SEP's candidates in the 2024 presidential election campaign.

www.wsws.org

 

[Financialpanther]

My shrink reckons Trump is shot for what it's worth.

My butler says the same.

 

[IlovethePies]

Seriously why do you almost always quote and use World Socialist Web Site as a source?

These media sources are moderately to strongly biased toward liberal causes through story selection and/or political affiliation. They may utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports, and omit information that may damage liberal causes. Some sources in this category may be untrustworthy.
Overall, we rate the World Socialist Web Site (WSWS) as strongly Left Biased based on promoting anti-capitalist, socialist viewpoints. We also rate them as Mostly Factual in reporting rather than High due to the use of some sources that promote conspiracy theories.

I have had this discussion many times before on other threads, and don't wish to repeat them here.
However the fundamental reason why I quote the wsws almost entirely is because it is the only genuine socialist website on the planet. It is the only website that discusses political phenonomena from the standpoint of the class interests of the working class.

 

[Nikita Blue]

Anyway, next Wednesday, the Vice Presidential debate.

Expecting more lying from Vance.

He is putrid.

 

[Bloods86]

No, that is where you are wrong.
Failing to fight for socialism has paved the way for authoritarianism.

Cases in point: 1933 in Germany. The Stalinists sabotaged the fight of the working class against Hitler by opposing a united front. They split the working class, and allowed Hitler to come to power unopposed by the workers' movement. Had they adopted the united front, which was the program of socialism, Hitler would never have come to power.

Chile: the Allende government, and its Stalinist and pseudo left supporters, demobilised the working class, telling workers that they could achieve their aims through Parliament. This allowed Pinochet to carry out a fascist coup in which countless thousands of socialist workers were murdered and tortured, and the establishment of a brutal military dictatorship.

You have just confirmed that you do believe the Democrats are a lesser evil. But the Democrats are the enablers of trump. They are not the same politically as Trump, but they are the ones who have allowed Trump to reach the point where he could now possibly win the election.

Therefore, supporting the Democrats, far from stopping the slide into dictatorship, will allow it to happen.

There is only one way to stop the slide into dictatorship in the US and imperialist war, that is by fighting for the development of a socialist program in the US working class.

The SEP launches its campaign for a socialist alternative in 2024 to Biden and Trump, the corporate candidates of war and dictatorship!

David North, the national chairman of the Socialist Equality Party (US), announced today the selection of Joe Kishore and Jerry White as the SEP's candidates in the 2024 presidential election campaign.

www.wsws.org

Dear god, read people's posts. Of course the Democrats are the lesser evil, how do you think this is a gotcha?

1933 Germany is literally an example of why your view is nonsense.

In summary, unless we can have socialism, we should allow authoritarianism to arrive more quickly, rather than take an action which at worst, will only delay it.

Absolute madness.

 

[E Shed]

I have had this discussion many times before on other threads, and don't wish to repeat them here.
However the fundamental reason why I quote the wsws almost entirely is because it is the only genuine socialist website on the planet. It is the only website that discusses political phenonomena from the standpoint of the class interests of the working class.

How can socialism succeed in the US when they’ve mostly been raised on the frontier, rugged individualism ideal & seem to see basic social safety net stuff as evil/communist?

It’s a hard sell.

 

[IlovethePies]

Dear god, read people's posts. Of course the Democrats are the lesser evil, how do you think this is a gotcha?

1933 Germany is literally an example of why your view is nonsense.

In summary, unless we can have socialism, we should allow authoritarianism to arrive more quickly, rather than take an action which at worst, will only delay it.

Absolute madness.

Do you actually know what happened in Germany in 1933?

Please explain to me why my view is "nonsense"

Not sure where the third line of your post comes from, or how it makes sense. I am saying that there is no way to stop the arrival of authoritarianism and fascism unless the working class adopts a socialist program. This means developing a revolutionary party in the US working class and internationally.

So there is a way to prevent authoritarianism. But it is not by voting for Harris.

 

[IlovethePies]

How can socialism succeed in the US when they’ve mostly been raised on the frontier, rugged individualism ideal & seem to see basic social safety net stuff as evil/communist?

It’s a hard sell.

That was true for a long time.
But that ideological barrier is breaking down rapidly in contemporary conditions.
In the immediate post war period, a time of deep political stagnation and the domination of anti-Communism promoted by the AFL-CIO, it was extremely difficult to fight for a socialist perspective in the working class.

Wages kept increasing, conditions kept improving, due to the huge economic supremacy of US imperialism.

But these conditions have long since disappeared.

A social crisis of disindustrialisation, massive social crisis and poverty in the US working class, ongoing death from COVID, and no way forward because the AFL-CIO are the very forces who are imposing sub inflation wage rises and ongoing conditions of exploitation, as well as mass retrenchments.

The AFL-CIO is now widely reviled by US workers. There are very significant signs that the US working class is open to an anti-capitalist perspective.

 

[Bloods86]

Do you actually know what happened in Germany in 1933?

Please explain to me why my view is "nonsense"

Not sure where the third line of your post comes from, or how it makes sense. I am saying that there is no way to stop the arrival of authoritarianism and fascism unless the working class adopts a socialist program. This means developing a revolutionary party in the US working class and internationally.

So there is a way to prevent authoritarianism. But it is not by voting for Harris.

By some holding out for an ideal, Germany and the world, got Hitler.

In reality, only 1 of 2 alternatives will be the next US President. You may not like it, I don't even like it, but that's a reality that neither of us can change despite wishful thinking.

By holding out for an ideal, anyone who is or pretends to be on the left, that does not vote for Harris, is increasing the chances of Trump being the next President. In search of the perfect, you're the enemy of the better.

Fight for your cause in between, including election reforms, but get your head out of the clouds at elections (if indeed we could actually vote).

 

[Mick F]

By some holding out for an ideal, Germany and the world, got Hitler.

In reality, only 1 of 2 alternatives will be the next US President. You may not like it, I don't even like it, but that's a reality that neither of us can change despite wishful thinking.

By holding out for an ideal, anyone who is or pretends to be on the left, that does not vote for Harris, is increasing the chances of Trump being the next President. In search of the perfect, you're the enemy of the better.

Fight for your cause in between, including election reforms, but get your head out of the clouds at elections (if indeed we could actually vote).

How Trump was elected in 2016. Bernie’s supporters staying home. Only cost a few hundred thousand people their lives, caused countless children to be permanently seperated from their parents and bankrupted thousands of farmers.

Agree with you. A few people need to acquaint themselves with the term ‘self indulgent’. Our best have successful careers, and families they love - money and power may attract the avaricious but not high achievers.