USA 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris

[Chief]

Continued in Part 2

USA - 2024 US Presidential Election: Trump vs Harris (pt II)

Continued from Part 1 - https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/2024-us-presidential-election-trump-vs-harris.1383317/

www.bigfooty.com

 

[IlovethePies]

By some holding out for an ideal, Germany and the world, got Hitler.

you need to find out what happened in 1933, because the rise of Hitler was not due to "holding out for an ideal". it was not the commitment to ideals that allowed Hitler to come to power. It was on the contrary the fact that these ideals were not acted upon that allowed the conquest of power by Hitler.

It was due to the fact that the Stalinist Communist party in Germany pursued the line of the Kremlin Stalinists, which was that the workers in the German Social Democracy trade unions were "social-fascists", ie equivalent to hitlerite fascists.

This meant that the German Communist Party refused to form a united front with the German workers in the Social Democratic unions. Trotsky, at the time in Turkey, issued statements demanding the formation of a united front between the Communist and Social Democratic workers to physcially defend the workign class against the terror of the fascist thugs. More than that, the workers in the procapitalist Social Democratic unions could be won to genuine socialism when they saw that the leaders of the Communist party were willing to defend the intersts of the workign class through the overthrow of the capitalist state, while the SD leadership was treacherous and would instead betray the workers.

The strategy and demands of Trotsky were deliberately suppressed and ignored by the Stalinist leaders of both the German Communist party and the Kremlin bureaucracy.

As a result, the working class was split, and totally powerless to undertake a struggle against the fascist thugs and at the same time politically against the machinations of the German parliament which was preparing to hand over power to Hitler.

In summary,

Hitler never commanded an electoral majority. The combined vote of the two working class parties (Social Democrats and the Communists) always outweighed the fascist vote.

Why do I go through this? To point out that one needs to understand the lessons of history in order to go forward. The wsws is the only website in the world that presents the lessons of history for the working class and for all those who wish to take up a fight for the working class.

 

[Bloods86]

you need to find out what happened in 1933, because the rise of Hitler was not due to "holding out for an ideal".
...
This meant that the German Communist Party refused to form a united front with the German workers in the Social Democratic unions.

I think you've argued against yourself here. Making my point for me.

 

[IlovethePies]

I think you've argued against yourself here. Making my point for me.

OK...I won't ask you to explain why this time, because it would be derailing a US election thread. But you can PM me if you wish to pursue this discussion.

...and if you don't wish to pursue it, that is fine as well.

 

[Bloods86]

OK...I won't ask you to explain why this time, because it would be derailing a US election thread. But you can PM me if you wish to pursue this discussion.

...and if you don't wish to pursue it, that is fine as well.

Thanks for conceding. All good, I'm happy to leave it there.

 

[IlovethePies]

Thanks for conceding. All good, I'm happy to leave it there.

Hey, where did i concede? Jumping to false conclusions again.

 

[jatz14]

Isnt it funny how these things always favor the left?

No?

A thing is what it is.

Biden shouldn't have run, Trump shouldn't have been nominated.

The left wouldn't be making capital out of Trumps stream of rambling nasty nonsense, if the GOP hadn't allowed themselves to be bent over the table by him.

Like the Republicans wouldn't have been able to campaign on Biden's mental faculties if his ambitions as an old man, and his stubborness hadn't over ridden common sense.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Bloods86]

Hey, where did i concede? Jumping to false conclusions again.

Yeah, it's just a coincidence that you suddenly gave up after acknowledging the failure of non authoritarians to have a united front against authoritarians, led to authoritarianism winning (despite not having a majority of the voting bloc)... thus making my point for me.

Under the guise of this apparently not being applicable to the thread no less.

 

[jatz14]

Maybe you could provide some specifics to your claims too rather than just stating your opinion as fact.

But picking up on just one falsehood, what do you think Democrats specifically could have done, by themselves, and in keeping with democratic principles, to ensure that Trump was thrown in gaol? Edit: I see you take issue with pushback over trial delays, and then heaped on personal opinion as to why "Democrats" didn't want to get timely resolution.

You can argue the Democrats have been feckless in the past which leads to Republicans being popular enough to hold significant sway over judicial appointments that have helped Trump escape current and future punishment, and to interfere with state-based investigations/prosecution. But that is not the same as arguing they have options to just throw him in the slammer themselves, which they have not taken.

Biden's "strong Republican party" comments (thought it was Pelosi, but maybe he said it too), have no connection to Trump escaping punishment or condoning the MAGA section of the GOP, which he has made very clear, he is against.

He gets his views from WSWS. Don't bother.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Spearman]

He gets his views from WSWS. Don't bother.

On SM-A346E using BigFooty.com mobile app

Yes, but he has his views and he argues his point with support he believes in. That is a helluva lot more than the bot-trolls that pass through.
A bit out of my depth here, too old now to argue this stuff. Reminds of college though.
Socialism to my mind is idealistic, but some policies benefit from flavoring for it. Same as capitalism, can't go too far with it.

 

[IlovethePies]

Yeah, it's just a coincidence that you suddenly gave up after acknowledging the failure of non authoritarians to have a united front against authoritarians, led to authoritarianism winning (despite not having a majority of the voting bloc)... thus making my point for me.

Under the guise of this apparently not being applicable to the thread no less.

No i stopped the conversation because it would have required explaining how the failure of the Communist party in germany in 1933 to carry out socialist policies led to the possiblity of Hitler coming to power.
That does not conform to the requirements of this trhead.

Talking in terms of "authoritarians"" and "non-authoritarians" is your problem here. The only way to understand reality is to speak in terms of class, and class interests.

The reason why the capitalist class (represented by Hitler) was able to prevail was due to the fact that the working class did not have a revolutionary leadership to guide its actions.

The electoral vote in Germany was a snap shot of the social balance of forces, which showed that, had the working class been led by a revolutionary party like Lenin's Bolshevik party, (instead of the Communist party, which had become by this time totally Stalinised) Hitler would never have come to power.

I don't know exactly what you are suggesting here, but a bloc with Karmela Harris and the supposedly "non-authoritarian" Democrats would be equivalent to what the Stalinists imposed in Spain during the Civil war. They murdered anyone who opposed their criminal policy of forming an alliance with the supposedly "progressive" section of the Spanish capitalist class.

This lead to the decapitation of the Spanish revolution, and the murder/torture of hundreds of thousands by the Franco dictatorship.

 

[Bloods86]

No i stopped the conversation because it would have required explaining how the failure of the Communist party in germany in 1933 to carry out socialist policies led to the possiblity of Hitler coming to power.
That does not conform to the requirements of this trhead.

Talking in terms of "authoritarians"" and "non-authoritarians" is your problem here. The only way to understand reality is to speak in terms of class, and class interests.

The reason why the capitalist class (represented by Hitler) was able to prevail was due to the fact that the working class did not have a revolutionary leadership to guide its actions.

The electoral vote in Germany was a snap shot of the social balance of forces, which showed that, had the working class been led by a revolutionary party like Lenin's Bolshevik party, (instead of the Communist party, which had become by this time totally Stalinised) Hitler would never have come to power.

I don't know exactly what you are suggesting here, but a bloc with Karmela Harris and the supposedly "non-authoritarian" Democrats would be equivalent to what the Stalinists imposed in Spain during the Civil war. They murdered anyone who opposed their criminal policy of forming an alliance with the supposedly "progressive" section of the Spanish capitalist class.

This lead to the decapitation of the Spanish revolution, and the murder/torture of hundreds of thousands by the Franco dictatorship.

It's too late mate.

Ah yes, only you understand reality, no-one else.

I have no idea what you're on about with the Spanish example. Seems a bit unhinged to compare to the non authoritarian Democrats and other non authoritarians teaming up to vote for a non authoritarian, in order to prevent an authoritarian gaining power.

 

[carltonchelsea]

I thought it was disingenuous to post clips as they weren't representative of the whole.....or at least that's what i was told by prominent leftists on here when Biden was dribbling, and they wanted to try and excuse his decline.

Oh well i guess he just had a bad day.

Isn’t running, much to your dismay, you poor little boy!

 

[IlovethePies]

It's too late mate.

Ah yes, only you understand reality, no-one else.

I have no idea what you're on about with the Spanish example. Seems a bit unhinged to compare to the non authoritarian Democrats.

agree mate. It's getting late.
Sorry if i give the impression that only i understand reality.
That is not my intent, nor my belief.
Far from it.

I just am hopeful that others will question the mainstream propaganda that all of us are fed constantly.
To do that, we need a way of thinking, a source of information, which analyses things in a way that is opposed to the status quo.

The Spanish example was just meant to explain how forming a bloc with "non-authoritarian" sections of the capitalist class leads to a disaster, as it did in Spain in 1936 (the Spanish Civil war).

Anyway, goodnight.

 

[carltonchelsea]

No i stopped the conversation because it would have required explaining how the failure of the Communist party in germany in 1933 to carry out socialist policies led to the possiblity of Hitler coming to power.
That does not conform to the requirements of this trhead.

Talking in terms of "authoritarians"" and "non-authoritarians" is your problem here. The only way to understand reality is to speak in terms of class, and class interests.

The reason why the capitalist class (represented by Hitler) was able to prevail was due to the fact that the working class did not have a revolutionary leadership to guide its actions.

The electoral vote in Germany was a snap shot of the social balance of forces, which showed that, had the working class been led by a revolutionary party like Lenin's Bolshevik party, (instead of the Communist party, which had become by this time totally Stalinised) Hitler would never have come to power.

I don't know exactly what you are suggesting here, but a bloc with Karmela Harris and the supposedly "non-authoritarian" Democrats would be equivalent to what the Stalinists imposed in Spain during the Civil war. They murdered anyone who opposed their criminal policy of forming an alliance with the supposedly "progressive" section of the Spanish capitalist class.

This lead to the decapitation of the Spanish revolution, and the murder/torture of hundreds of thousands by the Franco dictatorship.

Ahaha ahahaha if the morans were a criminal family, you were a forgotten distant family member!

 

[FireKrakouer]

Yikes, Walz v Vance will be a bloodbath. The attacks on Walz write themselves: repeated instances of stolen valour. Tampons in boys rooms. Lying about his experience with IVF. Lying about carrying weapons of war in a war zone. Lying about being busted driving 40MPH over the speed limit with a BAC of 1.28. Lying about his rank. Having a missus who publicly announced her enjoyment of the smell of burning tires during deadly riots. If you made a person by combining the worst traits of Biden and Trump, Walz is what you get.

Versus Vance, a self made millenial with zero scandals (to the point that one had to be fabricated, the couch thing).

Can someone please explain to me why such a flawed and dishonest candidate (Walz) from a safe state was chosen over J Shapiro - the popular governor of likely the most important state in the election? Go on... you know the reason... say it!!

 

[carltonchelsea]

Im yet to see any of the left in here say, "i got it wrong about Biden, he was unfit"

I’ll bite abh, a Biden leadership will always be better than your boyfriend!

 

[Blue1980]

...and there you have it, lesser evilism in a nutshell. However small, there is a tiny element of progressive elements in the Democratic party.

However, just one more question. If the differences, as you acknowledge, between the Democrats and Republicans are minimal, why are you (and others like you) focussing their full fire on Trump, without asking what is the way to stop Trump?

Because, if the difference between the Democrats and the Republicans is minimal, surely then supporting the Democrats might be a problematic perspective.

And if the Democrats are only minimally different to Trump, why are there so many here singing the praises of Harris??

It’s not as great a difference as I’d like, but it’s certainly not both sides the same.

Dems don’t want to gut the federal dept, ban abortion, deport millions of immigrants, claim every election is rigged if they don’t win, give further tax breaks to the rich, gut Medicare, ignore climate change etc.

Foreign policy they both suck, and hate how AIPAC has both sides of the isle bought and sold.

They don’t go far enough but it’s nihilistic to just give up and claim both as bad as each other so who cares. As there are still many levels to go down for things to get worse with the current iteration of the GOP.

 

[Blue1980]

BREAKING:
pseudo-anarchist wants worst government in power

sport and weather at six

Ah yes the accelerationists

 

[Blue1980]

What do you mean by continued escalation of the war in ukraine?

Yes the US made Russia declare war on Ukraine, somehow.

Kyle Kulinksi was saying today you get some weird anarchists/far leftists who are basically inverted neo cons.

While the neo cons think US and allies are always good and right, and all others = bad, the inverted neo-cons see all US enemies as good, and US and its allies as always bad.

Both positions are very dense. The correct answer is you take everything on its merits. US is wrong to fund Israel to high heaven no matter whatever atrocities they do, but right to help Ukraine who were invaded by a foreign power.

If you are ideologically consistent, it’s not too hard to have a coherent view.

 

[Blue1980]

Here are the only candidates in the US election who offer a way forward for the vast US working population:

The SEP launches its campaign for a socialist alternative in 2024 to Biden and Trump, the corporate candidates of war and dictatorship!

David North, the national chairman of the Socialist Equality Party (US), announced today the selection of Joe Kishore and Jerry White as the SEP's candidates in the 2024 presidential election campaign.

www.wsws.org

Without preferential voting, it’s kinda moot as they won’t have any power.

 

[Blue1980]

Hi, the article below explains the continued escalation of this war by the Biden administration. The immediately relevant paragraphs are: 12,13,14
The article was written on June 4, in response to the decision made by Biden, in secrecy, to allow the Ukrainian military to carry out long distance strikes with US missiles on Russian territory near Kharkiv:

Stop the US-NATO escalation toward nuclear war! Unite the international working class against imperialist war and genocide!

For the first time since the end of the Second World War, the US and its allies are directly targeting Russian territory.

www.wsws.org

Since then, the US and its NATO allies are on the verge of allowing Ukraine to use NATO and US long range missiles indiscriminately on the territory of Russia.

How dare they attack Russian territory after being invaded, those monsters.

 

[Blue1980]

Do you actually know what happened in Germany in 1933?

Please explain to me why my view is "nonsense"

Not sure where the third line of your post comes from, or how it makes sense. I am saying that there is no way to stop the arrival of authoritarianism and fascism unless the working class adopts a socialist program. This means developing a revolutionary party in the US working class and internationally.

So there is a way to prevent authoritarianism. But it is not by voting for Harris.

Bigger problem in 1933 were those who thought they could control Hitler who were more centre right (like pre Trump neocons), and they realised they couldn’t.

Sure the opposition sucked as well, but I think the better way is get the dems in and keep trying to get them enacting policies that the vast majority of the Americans want implemented.

Accelerationism isn’t the way to go.

 

[IlovethePies]

It’s not as great a difference as I’d like, but it’s certainly not both sides the same.

Dems don’t want to gut the federal dept, ban abortion, deport millions of immigrants, claim every election is rigged if they don’t win, give further tax breaks to the rich, gut Medicare, ignore climate change etc.

Foreign policy they both suck, and hate how AIPAC has both sides of the isle bought and sold.

They don’t go far enough but it’s nihilistic to just give up and claim both as bad as each other so who cares. As there are still many levels to go down for things to get worse with the current iteration of the GOP.

Agree, Blue. I have not framed it accurately enough.
There is a difference between the Democrats and the Trump Republicans.
Trump is spouting the latest version of American fascism. He is referring to "iimmigrants poisoning the blood of the nation" and that the birthright guarantees of the US constitution need to be abolished.

This is new in US politics. It is the eruption of outright fascism into the mainstream political environment.

The Democrats are not a fascist party, unlike the Republcan party which is now in the process of being transformed into a fascist party.

However, the role of the Democrats in the current poltical crisis is to be the facilitators of American fascism. Their policies, which have lead to continuing attacks on the living standards of the working class, continued attacks on immigrant workers, continued support for escalation of war in Ukraine and in Gaza via never ending arms packages for both Zelensky and Netanyahu, are paving the way for Trump to exploit the massive social grievances that the Democrats themselves have perpetuated.

It is grotesque that Trump can win support by posing as an "anti-war " figure. This is not due to any anti war position on his part, but only because he believes that the immediate priorities of US imperialism should be directed at suppressing opposition in the working class at home, rather than war against Russia in Ukraine.

Trump is a fascist, prowar politician, who is able to exploit the fact that the Democrats offer nothing but continued war and poverty to the American working class.

Supporting the Democrats will not stop the rise of fascism in the US.

Trump is already preparing his arguments for contesting the election result should he lose the election.

He is claiming that the Democrats are enrolling illegal immigrants to vote for them.

He is announcing that he will contest the election result should he lose, openly.

What are the Democrats doing to warn the working class? Absolutely nothing.

because they are much less fearful of a Trump dictatorship than a forewarned and active working class which might intervene to disrupt the plans of both capitalist parties.

 

[Bloods86]

Yikes, Walz v Vance will be a bloodbath. The attacks on Walz write themselves: repeated instances of stolen valour. Tampons in boys rooms. Lying about his experience with IVF. Lying about carrying weapons of war in a war zone. Lying about being busted driving 40MPH over the speed limit with a BAC of 1.28. Lying about his rank. Having a missus who publicly announced her enjoyment of the smell of burning tires during deadly riots. If you made a person by combining the worst traits of Biden and Trump, Walz is what you get.

Versus Vance, a self made millenial with zero scandals (to the point that one had to be fabricated, the couch thing).

Can someone please explain to me why such a flawed and dishonest candidate (Walz) from a safe state was chosen over J Shapiro - the popular governor of likely the most important state in the election? Go on... you know the reason... say it!!

You could start with substantive critiques, instead of lies and misrepresentations, although I'm unaware of the allegation against his wife (who as far as I know is not running for VP).

The reasons that Walz was selected over Shapiro are more than a singular reason. That singular reason that you want, being fabricated, because you wouldn't want to look too closely at your candidate on that factor.

Walz is a more successful and experienced governor, is more relatable, has a proven and admirable record of military service, and hasn't been as much of a controversial supporter of another country responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians.

 

[carltonchelsea]

and if the Marx brothers represented socialism, you would not be a forgotten distant family member because you wouldn't be smart enough.

At least I’m a brother, you’re not even a distant cousin!