Player Watch #38 Noah Cumberland - Delisted

[Elton Johns Wig]

Competing against Dusty ?lol EJW I think there was a lot of tension and disharmony and maybe it was the fact the boys knew Dimma was cooked and leaving. Just vibes seem better now . A PRO Dimma poster on here did mention that KDH in his last interview had been bagging out players which he never did in his tenure. It basically started this year on Cumberland and it was becoming more common.

Hardwick puts onus on young Tiger after MCG fade out

Damien Hardwick says Noah Cumberland needs to work harder to reach his full potential at AFL level

www.afl.com.au

RICHMOND forward Noah Cumberland can be a match-winner but needs to work harder to reach those heights, coach Damien Hardwick says.

Cumberland helped the Tigers build a 25-point lead over Melbourne with three first-quarter goals in a scintillating start to Monday night's clash at the MCG.

But he was then shut out of the game by Michael Hibberd, managing just two disposals after quarter-time as the Demons overran Richmond.

​

"What Noah's got to realise is how hard he has to work in the game of AFL footy," Hardwick said after the Tigers' 18-point loss.

"He could be as good as he wants, that kid, but he's got to get to work on some things in his game.



"A lot of it is to do with Noah - how bad he wants it - and he's working on that."

Cumberland has kicked 25 goals in 13 senior games, including a haul of five against Brisbane last year.


Watch Richmond's press conference after round six's match against Melbourne
Hardwick wants the 22-year-old to stay in games for longer and urged him to respond to the challenge.

"He can rip open a game in five minutes, this kid, and that's what we love about him," Hardwick said.

"We sort of changed our structure a little bit to get him in and he's just got to continue to play the game and realise the game will challenge him at various stages.



"His body language will get better but we just love what he brings (with) his energy.

"We've got to make sure that's used in all the right places because he can be a difference-maker for our side.

"We're excited about the prospect of that, but we sort of want to get there a little bit faster."





Most of that is pretty positive, I suppose it's how you want to read it. I know society is soft these days but if that's smashing someone god help us all.
And Dimma definitely said it was v Dusty early doors. Hence above he talks about changing the structure to get him in. Must really hate the kid to change the structure for him.

 

[Rioli2Rioli]

Yeah and it’s a group of posters who generally call people trolls if they make supposedly negative comments in their eyes. Yet they want a young kid to fail and are looking at any iota of negativity in his game so they can beat their chests saying I told you so. It’s the same with Miller and Bradtke is getting

Im not sure if anybody wants Cumberland to fail really !
We all want gun players at Richmond and want our boys to be dominating games and winning games

We do have some genuine trolls here and many of us know exactly who they are and they are not difficult to pickout
But i do believe this Cumberland thing has gone too far both ways kind of similar to the stack thing where 1 set of supporters want him to sort his sh!t out and not be given hand out games whilst the other side thinks the kid has been hard done by the coaches and not played through his issue's

But dont really believe anybody wants him to fail

 

[Grrr]

While I agree the young players learning the game should be given some leniency regarding their performance, the rule should apply to all the young players not a select few.

I would hope those advocating voraciously for Cumberland also apply the same standards to others like Mansell or Ralphsmith!

Mansell has been getting games every week but a couple. Not one poster on here thinks he is the future as a forward. I don't mind him as a backman or maybe even on the wing at a push, but he is no forward.

I cannot understand the panning HRS gets either, he seems to be going alright to me for a young player.

What about Ryan, gets selected each week when he has done stuff all as a forward.

It's a bit like Ross, he was out the door by a good many posters. All he needed was to be backed in and learn his role, but it takes time.

Cumberland backers like myself have no problem with him playing VFL as he needs to add extra dimensions to his game. But when he plays it is only fair to judge him not on games 4-6 weeks ago, but on present form, and we won't know what that is until he is backed in for a few weeks regardless of form. All players need that, again referring to Ross, he was all over the shop and lost all confidence over the last few years. 8 games in a row now and going very well.

 

[Bojangles17]

The kids set shot routine needs some work , the 2 v GC were woeful , the choice to checkside from 3m out rather than snap off his wrong foot , fmd
The choice footballers make never cease to amaze me ,, ultimately careers live and die on these choices

 

[Charlie Pannam]

I find it difficult to understand how supporters believe they know better about how players should be managed than the coaches/match committee.

It is not a matter of towing company lines. It is more a matter of weighing up the probabilities of the people the club has in place to make these decisions either:

1. having poor motivations

2. being poorly informed

3. having good motivations and information but still making bad decisions.

Judging by the evidence we have to go on, all of these things seem highly unlikely to me. The decisions are being made by successful experienced people who appear to be invested in what they are doing. I have good faith that this is the case. If there is strong evidence to say it is not the case at some point, then my view would change. But the way Noah Cumberland has been managed does not look like evidence of poor decision making to me. It looks the exact opposite to that. 2022 when he was playing well and in a manner in keeping with what the team needed, he was consistently selected. This year he was performing poorly within the team structure and omitted as a result.

I think talk of the coaches being to blame for his poor returns in games in 2023 is putting the player's "returns" ahead of what the team is trying to achieve overall. This should never be what Richmond is about. The only evidence of anything like this I have seen that I am a little uneasy about is the push to get first Edwards and now Cotchin to 300 games. The reason I am not greatly disturbed about this is the ready made replacements are just not there and fit and firing and ready to take over. So even the decision to keep older players in the team a little past their use by date I take on faith that it is likely buying time to allow younger players to develop that little bit longer at the lower level or in peripheral roles rather than getting smashed in an AFL team which might be struggling to maintain a strong structure.

Ok so supporters don’t know better than coaches but it’s naive to think coaches are getting every decision and team selection correct .

I thought last year was a classic example with sticking with a player ( George) horribly out of form for far too long. It cost us games. Not surprisingly when Cumberland and Sonsie came into the team it played a part in turning our season around.

Anyway you’ve got to call it as you see it. If you think a decision is correct because the coach has said it is, then all good, have that opinion. It’d be a boring debate if we were all on the same page

 

[Elton Johns Wig]

It’d be a boring debate if we were all on the same page

It seems we're not.

 

[domin8]

I don't think he's being singled out at all.

The media focus, they asked Q's on Cumbo, Dimma answered. All he said was 1) playing for a similar spot to Dusty and 2) he knows what he needs to work on, it's up to him how good he wants to be

What about other players not getting a game that are being called on by supporters to get a game but aren't, are they being singled out too?

And sorry, I don't buy the happiness stuff. We got over Geelong when Dimma was there. We have been in every game bar one this year.

It's more to do with structure. Not having a fit, true KPF is killing our effectiveness in F50. We have Lynch, our Win/Loss probably flips and we're being talked about as Top 4 and a danger. Jack having an on day helped. If he's quiet next week, our conversion probably struggles again.

Spot on. I think those that think Dimma singled out Cumbo need to go back and rewatch that presser.

 

[Charlie Pannam]

It seems we're not.

Long may it continue

 

[Drunken Wookie]

Cumbo needs to model his game on Dusty/De Goey. Needs to be able to push into the midfield when delivery dries up forward of centre and impact and win the ball himself. Reckon he's capable of being a solid midfield rotation.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Ok so supporters don’t know better than coaches but it’s naive to think coaches are getting every decision and team selection correct .

I thought last year was a classic example with sticking with a player ( George) horribly out of form for far too long. It cost us games. Not surprisingly when Cumberland and Sonsie came into the team it played a part in turning our season around.

Anyway you’ve got to call it as you see it. If you think a decision is correct because the coach has said it is, then all good, have that opinion. It’d be a boring debate if we were all on the same page

I certainly don't think a decision is correct because a coach has made the decision. Everybody makes decisions that turn out to be wrong, absolutely everybody. It is unrealistic to expect otherwise.

The nature of making decisions around selection in a football team is such that even after a decision is made and the results are known, we still cannot be certain whether an optimal decision has been made. And due to the dynamic nature of rules, opposition teams and your own players, conditions and other factors, a decision that is optimal as at rd 5 2023 could prove to be a lot less successful if applied even the very next week.

I think all we can ask is the decisions are made with the best of intentions, with due care, and by people who are in a position to understand all the factors of the decision, and are experienced enough to know how to weigh those factors. Or failing any of this, that they learn quickly and well from errors that are made. Selectors have to discriminate between players when making selections. So long as this is being done on the right footballing grounds, ie what makes the team perform better, then a player should not have a clear case to claim unfair bias against him.

What possible motivation would the selectors have to not select Cumberland in the starting 22 if it was clearly better for the team's performance to have him in the team? If it is unclear(debatable) whether he is best 22 then none of us should be pointing at a decision made and saying it is wrong. We are merely then substituting our own prejudice for the prejudice of the selectors, and with it, our own lack of internal knowledge for their wealth of internal knowledge. This just makes no sense at all to me.

Years ago I was in the Public Service. I had maybe been around a couple of years. I had a conversation with a guy who had been there 20 years. He told me something that has always held true in my observation. He said there are lots of people promoted beyond what their capabilities justify. But there are no truly talented people who do not rise to their rightful station in the end. If Cumberland is good enough and dedicated enough, the selectors won't stop him reaching his level.

 

[TigerImposter]

Cumbo needs to model his game on Dusty/De Goey. Needs to be able to push into the midfield when delivery dries up forward of centre and impact and win the ball himself. Reckon he's capable of being a solid midfield rotation.

No hope IMHO . I just want him to get his forward game back on track before we even start considering other positions. It's something you can do with him in the VFL to keep him interested and switched on, but at AFL we need pros in the guts and pros up forward.

 

[Drunken Wookie]

No hope IMHO . I just want him to get his forward game back on track before we even start considering other positions. It's something you can do with him in the VFL to keep him interested and switched on. but at AFL we need pros in the guts and pros up forward.

Seems the MC/coaches won't let him start on the ground until he's able to put in 4qtr efforts. That's where my suggestion comes in. If he's not impacting up forward he can push up and get involved. If they're expecting him to impact on the scoreboard for 4qtrs they're asking him to be the next Lockett.

 

[TigerImposter]

Years ago I was in the Public Service. I had maybe been around a couple of years. I had a conversation with a guy who had been there 20 years. He told me something that has always held true in my observation. He said there are lots of people promoted beyond what their capabilities justify. But there are no truly talented people who do not rise to their rightful station in the end. If Cumberland is good enough and dedicated enough, the selectors won't stop him reaching his level.

Using the Public Service to support your argument is a dangerous precedence as they have the highest rate of promoting people based on nepotism rather than ability. The person with ability then becomes disenchanted and leaves to prosper in greener pastures.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Using the Public Service to support your argument is a dangerous precedence as they have the highest rate of promoting people based on nepotism rather than ability. The person with ability then becomes disenchanted and leaves to prosper in greener pastures.

I don't think he was talking about only the Public Service.

It is funny, I left in the end, for more barren pastures, where all the best opportunities truly lie.

 

[TigerImposter]

I don't think he was talking about only the Public Service.

Well there's only one other organization that has a dubious selection criteria and panel. It's the Australian Cricket Team Selectors as the saying about them is

" IT'S HARDER TO GET OUT OF THE AUSTRALIAN CRICKET SIDE THAN TO GET INTO IT"​

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Well there's only one other organization that has a dubious selection criteria and panel. It's the Australian Cricket Team Selectors as the saying about them is

" IT'S HARDER TO GET OUT OF THE AUSTRALIAN CRICKET SIDE THAN TO GET INTO IT"​

I had a suspiciously easy time getting out of the public service. Talk about knowing when you are not wanted.

 

[Grrr]

Using the Public Service to support your argument is a dangerous precedence as they have the highest rate of promoting people based on nepotism rather than ability. The person with ability then becomes disenchanted and leaves to prosper in greener pastures.

2nd last sentence has just burst my bubble.

 

[Elton Johns Wig]

Using the Public Service to support your argument is a dangerous precedence as they have the highest rate of promoting people based on nepotism rather than ability. The person with ability then becomes disenchanted and leaves to prosper in greener pastures.

I mean, Scotty from Marketing failed up from Tourism to be PM, you may have a point.

 

[_RT_]

I find it weird that people are coming down so hard on Cumberland. He is a young player trying to force his way into the side. Just because some posters pump him up doesn't mean other posters have to come down so hard. He was given a Q to do something in a pressure packed last Q. He did a couple of good things, he did a couple of not so good. End of story. He hardly 'stunk it up'. Until he plays a series of games to judge him on I don't think anyone can judge him fairly one way of another.

As you know I've been one who has defended the clubs handling of Noah since the issues have arisen and IMO judging him on yesterdays game is stupid. Sure he didn't star, but he hardly stunk it up either. His 2 possessions were important with his first scoring and the second being an I50. Outside that he seemingly was more switched on in terms of making sure he was where he needed to be when the Giants won possession in our F50.

I'd like to see him remain in the squad for the Fremantle game, possibly even bringing him in to start the game as the space and conditions at Optus Stadium may just suit his game better and a few early touches may well be what he needs to get his confidence up and going again. The problem is that if things don't go the way you'd like, then the doubts could creep in.

What may be best for him is spending the next 2 weeks at the VFL level before the club has the bye as a whole, let him just go out and get some footy under his belt, then bring him back post the bye with a refreshed mind & body.

 

[TigerImposter]

As you know I've been one who has defended the clubs handling of Noah since the issues have arisen and IMO judging him on yesterdays game is stupid. Sure he didn't star, but he hardly stunk it up either. His 2 possessions were important with his first scoring and the second being an I50. Outside that he seemingly was more switched on in terms of making sure he was where he needed to be when the Giants won possession in our F50.

I'd like to see him remain in the squad for the Fremantle game, possibly even bringing him in to start the game as the space and conditions at Optus Stadium may just suit his game better and a few early touches may well be what he needs to get his confidence up and going again. The problem is that if things don't go the way you'd like, then the doubts could creep in.

What may be best for him is spending the next 2 weeks at the VFL level before the club has the bye as a whole, let him just go out and get some footy under his belt, then bring him back post the bye with a refreshed mind & body.

My concern RT is he’s hardly had any game time since DT. I reckon he may need to got to vfl to recharge his battery. Or start him in the AFL and sub him off which will be risky. I don’t know if it was that early knock he got, but he didn’t seem to look his electric self although he did get involved.

 

[Grrr]

As you know I've been one who has defended the clubs handling of Noah since the issues have arisen and IMO judging him on yesterdays game is stupid. Sure he didn't star, but he hardly stunk it up either. His 2 possessions were important with his first scoring and the second being an I50. Outside that he seemingly was more switched on in terms of making sure he was where he needed to be when the Giants won possession in our F50.

I'd like to see him remain in the squad for the Fremantle game, possibly even bringing him in to start the game as the space and conditions at Optus Stadium may just suit his game better and a few early touches may well be what he needs to get his confidence up and going again. The problem is that if things don't go the way you'd like, then the doubts could creep in.

What may be best for him is spending the next 2 weeks at the VFL level before the club has the bye as a whole, let him just go out and get some footy under his belt, then bring him back post the bye with a refreshed mind & body.

They tried to do that but we got a stupid bye, second in 4 weeks and then he was used as sub. So he is up and down. The other problem is, we are just 6 points outside the 8. The top 4 are set, but the next 4 are not, so technically the season is not dead, nor should the club treat it that way.

So we have two choices, back Cumberland in like they have Ryan, or let him play VFL for a couple of weeks. At this stage nothing ventured nothing gained, so give him a crack. He showed good willingness, he'd be hungry.

 

[TheDyerLegacy]

Listening to dimma talk about Castanga got me thinking about Cumberland. I’m a huge Cumberland fan as a lot are because of how exciting he can be but I see where the coaching staff is coming from in terms on ‘staying in the game’.

Dimma described George as the greatest role player and you see how Mansell has tried to fill that void.

Richmond has been successful on the back on their structures and brand of footy. Problem for Cumberland is, does he fit that? I found this interesting from Dimma from one of his final press conferences:
"He can rip open a game in five minutes, this kid, and that's what we love about him," Hardwick said.

"We sort of changed our structure a little bit to get him in and he's just got to continue to play the game and realise the game will challenge him at various stages.

I do wonder if he’ll be a Richmond player for long or if he will find himself playing elsewhere. I do hope it’s for the tigers!

 

[Hank Heavenly]

Listening to dimma talk about Castanga got me thinking about Cumberland. I’m a huge Cumberland fan as a lot are because of how exciting he can be but I see where the coaching staff is coming from in terms on ‘staying in the game’.

Dimma described George as the greatest role player and you see how Mansell has tried to fill that void.

Richmond has been successful on the back on their structures and brand of footy. Problem for Cumberland is, does he fit that? I found this interesting from Dimma from one of his final press conferences:
"He can rip open a game in five minutes, this kid, and that's what we love about him," Hardwick said.

"We sort of changed our structure a little bit to get him in and he's just got to continue to play the game and realise the game will challenge him at various stages.

I do wonder if he’ll be a Richmond player for long or if he will find himself playing elsewhere. I do hope it’s for the tigers!

I get the feeling with Cumbo, we tried this year to out a square peg in a round hole!

 

[acr2751]

I get the feeling with Cumbo, we tried this year to out a square peg in a round hole!

or maybe, he is just a square peg that doesn't fit in the round hole that we have available

 

[Grrr]

Listening to dimma talk about Castanga got me thinking about Cumberland. I’m a huge Cumberland fan as a lot are because of how exciting he can be but I see where the coaching staff is coming from in terms on ‘staying in the game’.

Dimma described George as the greatest role player and you see how Mansell has tried to fill that void.

Richmond has been successful on the back on their structures and brand of footy. Problem for Cumberland is, does he fit that? I found this interesting from Dimma from one of his final press conferences:
"He can rip open a game in five minutes, this kid, and that's what we love about him," Hardwick said.

"We sort of changed our structure a little bit to get him in and he's just got to continue to play the game and realise the game will challenge him at various stages.

I do wonder if he’ll be a Richmond player for long or if he will find himself playing elsewhere. I do hope it’s for the tigers!

Dimma stuck to his guns and for the last few years that hasn't worked. His success was a combination of things gelling and having players like Rance, Dusty, Cotchin Jack, Lynch. Stars. When they waned, so have we.

Those stars allowed role players to be important quiet achievers, and Castagna was rewarded one of those role players. But they have all gone because as the team quality dropped those role players couldn't be relied on. Castagna was far more than a role player in our Premiership team. In 2018 before Lynch arrived he took the second most marks inside 50 for us for the season. Caddy was similarly a marking target. Lynch arrival meant those players had to find a second string and they didn't have one.

Dimma was stuck with his role playing mantra, but it wasn't working. Cumberland was not suited to that role and through natural form, some injuries and some adjusting, byes at the wrong time, he has not had any continuity in his football at all.

Like Sonsie and Banks, who despite playing well every week is not getting a gig, Cumberland is missing some things in his game. I don't think he has been allowed to work on those, because he has been up and down and in and out of the side like a yo-yo. They should have played him one straight month as a high half forward in the VFL to get some real football into him. But it didn't happen. He has time still to get some decent football in him before finals if we make it. If not then next year, he is not the first and won't be the last to hit the second year blues. Like Sonsie, lot's of talent, but not there just yet.