Player Watch #38 Noah Cumberland

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Moppey said:
Way its going reckon we can look fwd to another stengle scenario where he will want to go for better opportunity in what he does well and he will kick bags at his new club.

Hardly a whimper last year about Cumberlands pressure in his 8 games. Why because there was nothing wrong with his pressure.
19 goals in what was in reality 8 games equates to 2.4 goals a season. Along with that he layed some crunching tackles and applied plenty of pressure imo.

I have to ask if it so important for Cumberland to apply pressure why is it not just as important for Martin. What we only play kids now days to cover for older blokes who hardly have a defensive bone in their body.Has Dusty's role really changed that much i don't believe so.

If they pick Cumberland and the likes of Sonsie it means a favorite has to miss out not neccesarily Dusty.

AS to them playing the same role boy oh boy supporters just buy club spiel hook line and sinker. If people really want to believe that then good on em.

Just cannot wait until Samson Ryan has to go because we are to tall and slow and don't apply enough pressure fwd. Well hello doesnt that same logic apply to Dusty.

The game has changed from 2017 - 2019 but you would not know it at times.
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Yep. Based on some of the comments in this thread if stengle was still with us he wouldnt get a game either (he is a offensive weapon like cumberland and so so on pressure) - and he is an aa forward which cumberland given the chance can be that too.
 
living_in_syd said:
Lets just say we have a good record of taking a players strength away from them and turning them into a battler by taking away their confidence.. such a shame we cant focus on what he can do not what he cant do.
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We sure are

Just have a look at all the players that played in our recent premierships that were drafted late in the draft
we have ruined them all

Graham , Grimes , Astbury , Balta , Bolton , Short , Broad , McIntosh , Pickett the list just goes on and on
Why couldnt we just let them all play how they wanted and become like Carlton or Essendon who allow Stringer and like to play their game
 

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Sir_Loin said:
Holy s**t it’s almost like Steve Morris watched the game and gave an honest appraisal of his performance. It was mediocre. Hardly banging the door down.
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And Morris is being respectful
Behind closed doors he would be saying

" Couldnt get a touch and was giving away free kicks and the opposition were running it out using his man , I had to move him and give him a blast before he pulled his finger out and started tackling"
 
db26 said:
To be honest I didn't see glaring issues in his game class was there , pressure and tackling , involvement and kicking goals yeah all players can improve , but I don't understand why you keep your best medium forward out the side that can kick you a bag of goals and crunch goals.

If we're talking about defence pressure let's have the same rules for every player because we are carrying a few that don't even apply it at all veterans or not that's my issue.
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Once again, Cumberland is competing with Martin for a spot in the 22. Dusty is far better as a medium forward than Noah with the proven ability to go through the middle when required to either capitalise on or change momentum in the game at any time.

The issue for Noah isn't just about becoming more defensively accountable, but to also have more impact offensively. FWIW, playing as a forward in 2022, Noah ranked below average for disposals, marks, tackles, pressure acts & uncontested possessions. So by training him up in a new role, that incorporates more midfield time, they'll be hoping that he learns to get more possessions which leads to him having a greater impact on the game, much like Martin does.

As for the lack of defensive pressure, there is a clear difference in the reasons why some players are 'excused' for their lack of pressure and the lack of defensive pressure Noah displays and that is the offensive aspects. Cumberland ranked below average for disposals, marks, tackles & pressure acts. All of Lynch Riewoldt Martin Bolton & Maurice rank as average or higher for pressure acts & tackles, hence the desire to have Noah also improve in those areas as well, if he does then we become even more potent up forward as well as through the midfield
 
Dr Tigris said:
His problem is that the role he is good at is the same one Dusty plays. And he will always come 2nd to Dusty.

It's that simple.

So Dimma is asking/telling him to learn more strings to his game. 6 tackles is a great start. He is smart and talented. I expect in a few weeks/months he'll be tearing it apart and we have another multifaceted high end talent. that is he plan. It sucks for him, and looks poor as he is obviously above VFL standard. But right now he can't play midfield in the AFL and isn't replacing Dusty.
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If they’re going to play Cotchin and mansell forward I’m pretty sure they can fit Cumberland in. Appreciate the opinion but I just think its poor management by us.
 
Moppey said:
Way its going reckon we can look fwd to another stengle scenario where he will want to go for better opportunity in what he does well and he will kick bags at his new club.

Hardly a whimper last year about Cumberlands pressure in his 8 games. Why because there was nothing wrong with his pressure.
19 goals in what was in reality 8 games equates to 2.4 goals a season. Along with that he layed some crunching tackles and applied plenty of pressure imo.

I have to ask if it so important for Cumberland to apply pressure why is it not just as important for Martin. What we only play kids now days to cover for older blokes who hardly have a defensive bone in their body.Has Dusty's role really changed that much i don't believe so.

If they pick Cumberland and the likes of Sonsie it means a favorite has to miss out not neccesarily Dusty.

AS to them playing the same role boy oh boy supporters just buy club spiel hook line and sinker. If people really want to believe that then good on em.

Just cannot wait until Samson Ryan has to go because we are to tall and slow and don't apply enough pressure fwd. Well hello doesnt that same logic apply to Dusty.

The game has changed from 2017 - 2019 but you would not know it at times.
Click to expand...
Nice rant, but lets correct a few things.

Martin averages 2.9 tackles a game for his 271 game career and since pressure acts started being recorded in 2012 he has averaged 14.4 a game.
Noah averages 1.9 tackles and 10.8 pressure acts, which both rated as below average for a mid sized forward that Noah played as last year, he also rated below average for disposals and marks, but lets not let that interfere with your ranting.
 
Rioli2Rioli said:
Have you seen the pressure stengle puts on the opposition ?
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In 2022 Stengle ranked
elite for goals I50s score involvements shots on goal
above average for disposals tackles clearances contested possessions uncontested possessions
average for pressure acts tackles inside F50
 
Sol23 said:
If they’re going to play Cotchin and mansell forward I’m pretty sure they can fit Cumberland in. Appreciate the opinion but I just think its poor management by us.
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Sigh.....

Once again Noah isn't competing for a spot against Cotchin and Mansell, he is competing against Martin and Bolton.

Now which 2 of Martin Bolton or Cumberland are you playing in the 22 if all 3 are fit and available?
 
_RT_ said:
Once again, Cumberland is competing with Martin for a spot in the 22. Dusty is far better as a medium forward than Noah with the proven ability to go through the middle when required to either capitalise on or change momentum in the game at any time.

The issue for Noah isn't just about becoming more defensively accountable, but to also have more impact offensively. FWIW, playing as a forward in 2022, Noah ranked below average for disposals, marks, tackles, pressure acts & uncontested possessions. So by training him up in a new role, that incorporates more midfield time, they'll be hoping that he learns to get more possessions which leads to him having a greater impact on the game, much like Martin does.

As for the lack of defensive pressure, there is a clear difference in the reasons why some players are 'excused' for their lack of pressure and the lack of defensive pressure Noah displays and that is the offensive aspects. Cumberland ranked below average for disposals, marks, tackles & pressure acts. All of Lynch Riewoldt Martin Bolton & Maurice rank as average or higher for pressure acts & tackles, hence the desire to have Noah also improve in those areas as well, if he does then we become even more potent up forward as well as through the midfield
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I don't get this scenario his competing with Martin on the basis of what ? One is a pure forward the other is a hybrid can play in the guts.I don't buy it the fact is he was our best medium forward by a mile last year.

Yeah you give take with players with there defensive aspect no doubt, but how many can you carry.We had 3 tackles in our forward 50 last week with all the players you mentioned better the Cumberland . Do that against the pies you will get put to the sword.
 
_RT_ said:
Sigh.....

Once again Noah isn't competing for a spot against Cotchin and Mansell, he is competing against Martin and Bolton.

Now which 2 of Martin Bolton or Cumberland are you playing in the 22 if all 3 are fit and available?
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You’re just giving dimmas explanation. Don’t you have your own opinion?
Cumberland is a better forward than Cotchin and mansell and applies more than enough pressure. End of
 
Sol23 said:
You’re just giving dimmas explanation. Don’t you have your own opinion?
Cumberland is a better forward than Cotchin and mansell and applies more than enough pressure. End of
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Cumberland was rated below average for pressure acts & tackles last year, but please do tell how he applies more than enough pressure.
 

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Sol23 said:
You’re just giving dimmas explanation. Don’t you have your own opinion?
Cumberland is a better forward than Cotchin and mansell and applies more than enough pressure. End of
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And that is the only one that actually matters

Hardwick is not making that on his own he has assistant coaches that make this choice together and i would guess these coaches see and know more about Cumberland , Stack and any other player than we do. Considering he has reached the pinnacle 3 times
ill back him to make the correct call as he did with Stack. Which no other club touched
 
Moppey said:
Way its going reckon we can look fwd to another stengle scenario where he will want to go for better opportunity in what he does well and he will kick bags at his new club.

Hardly a whimper last year about Cumberlands pressure in his 8 games. Why because there was nothing wrong with his pressure.
19 goals in what was in reality 8 games equates to 2.4 goals a season. Along with that he layed some crunching tackles and applied plenty of pressure imo.

I have to ask if it so important for Cumberland to apply pressure why is it not just as important for Martin. What we only play kids now days to cover for older blokes who hardly have a defensive bone in their body.Has Dusty's role really changed that much i don't believe so.

If they pick Cumberland and the likes of Sonsie it means a favorite has to miss out not neccesarily Dusty.

AS to them playing the same role boy oh boy supporters just buy club spiel hook line and sinker. If people really want to believe that then good on em.

Just cannot wait until Samson Ryan has to go because we are to tall and slow and don't apply enough pressure fwd. Well hello doesnt that same logic apply to Dusty.

The game has changed from 2017 - 2019 but you would not know it at times.
Click to expand...

Welcome back Mopsey, not seen you on here for a while.

So in Mopsey's world, exactly why isn't Cumberland being selected by triple Premiership coach Hardwick and his triple Premiership match committee?

Perhaps he was just too good and they didn't want to select their best 22?
 
Sol23 said:
You’re just giving dimmas explanation. Don’t you have your own opinion?
Cumberland is a better forward than Cotchin and mansell and applies more than enough pressure. End of
Click to expand...
A lot of supporters do, it’s almost as if they believe coaches don’t tell lies
 
Sol23 said:
If they’re going to play Cotchin and mansell forward I’m pretty sure they can fit Cumberland in. Appreciate the opinion but I just think its poor management by us.
Click to expand...

Cotchin - despite being named as a forward plays very little time there.

Against Carlton he has 56% of his poses in the defensive half. Of those that were in the offensive half, only two were inside the forward 50 (and even then those possession were about 40m out).

Against Adelaide it was slightly different with 42% of his possessions in the defensive half. Of those in the forward half; again only two were inside forward 50 and again about 40 meters out with the majority on the true wing or flank.

The majority of his possessions in both games came 70m+ out from goal.

Mansell (against Carlton because I suspect his role was different as the sub); all his possessions were up on the wings on the flanks, with only two in the pockets.

It would seem as if our forwards are trying to isolate advantageous matchups inside forward 50. Space has always been a factor going inside 50. Whether that’s Lynch, Riewoldt, Martin or Bolton (and Ryan against Crows) it seems as if that’s the focus. Everything else structurally revolves around that. Gone are the days that you can plonk your six most talented forwards and it will automatically work out.

The structure of your team has a direct result on the players selected. I don’t personally think it’s too much about the pressure applied, I think Cumberland’s endeavor to put pressure on is generally very good. But he can’t play outside of 70m from the goal like Cotchin and Mansell can (and I’d add Clarke as I’d have selected him over Mansell).

I think that’s what he’s trying to learn at VFL. The ability to impact the game further up the ground. With the likes of Lynch, Riewoldt, Martin and Bolton, scoring shouldn’t be our issue. It’s what works to maximize the efficiency and effectiveness of those guys that is the issue. Cumberland - at least right now - is the best option to maximize that output.
 
db26 said:
I don't get this scenario his competing with Martin on the basis of what ? One is a pure forward the other is a hybrid can play in the guts.I don't buy it the fact is he was our best medium forward by a mile last year.

Yeah you give take with players with there defensive aspect no doubt, but how many can you carry.We had 3 tackles in our forward 50 last week with all the players you mentioned better the Cumberland . Do that against the pies you will get put to the sword.
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Yes Noah is a pure forward, but in todays football, outside KPFs and most defenders, not many players are locked into one position, they need flexibility in their roles to enable better rotation management, hence having him train up as a midfielder. If you're not flexible in terms of the roles you can play you're quickly going to get found out and be spat out the other side.
 
Sol23 said:
You’re just giving dimmas explanation. Don’t you have your own opinion?
Cumberland is a better forward than Cotchin and mansell and applies more than enough pressure. End of
Click to expand...
FWIW, I haven't listened to a single presser from Hardwick this year as like most press conferences held by AFL coaches they offer nothing but a heap of double talk and bluffs. My assessment is based on what I've seen in practice matches this year and seeing how they are trying to use Noah in those games and comparing it to the player playing the same role in the AFL side.

The role they are trying to get Noah up to speed with is the hybrid role that Martin and Bolton play. Either starting as an attacking goal kicking forward who can go through the midfield whenever it's needed or start in the midfield and then role forward and hit the scoreboard to help maintain or change momentum of the game. They don't want Noah to be a defensive minded forward where he sits on the oppositions rebounding defender trying to limit their impact.

Unfortunately many of those carrying on about Noah not being in the side, seem to be of the opinion that the club are trying to negate his natural game, when in fact they are trying to expand his game and help it get to the next level, so they've targeted their arguments around Cotchin and Mansell playing ahead of him, when neither of them play the role they're asking Cumberland to learn, but it's much easier than trying to argue why he should be played against Martin & Bolton, because quite frankly they can't argue it.
 
RockJobster0312 said:
Cotchin - despite being named as a forward plays very little time there.

Against Carlton he has 56% of his poses in the defensive half. Of those that were in the offensive half, only two were inside the forward 50 (and even then those possession were about 40m out).

Against Adelaide it was slightly different with 42% of his possessions in the defensive half. Of those in the forward half; again only two were inside forward 50 and again about 40 meters out with the majority on the true wing or flank.

The majority of his possessions in both games came 70m+ out from goal.

Mansell (against Carlton because I suspect his role was different as the sub); all his possessions were up on the wings on the flanks, with only two in the pockets.

It would seem as if our forwards are trying to isolate advantageous matchups inside forward 50. Space has always been a factor going inside 50. Whether that’s Lynch, Riewoldt, Martin or Bolton (and Ryan against Crows) it seems as if that’s the focus. Everything else structurally revolves around that. Gone are the days that you can plonk your six most talented forwards and it will automatically work out.

The structure of your team has a direct result on the players selected. I don’t personally think it’s too much about the pressure applied, I think Cumberland’s endeavor to put pressure on is generally very good. But he can’t play outside of 70m from the goal like Cotchin and Mansell can (and I’d add Clarke as I’d have selected him over Mansell).

I think that’s what he’s trying to learn at VFL. The ability to impact the game further up the ground. With the likes of Lynch, Riewoldt, Martin and Bolton, scoring shouldn’t be our issue. It’s what works to maximize the efficiency and effectiveness of those guys that is the issue. Cumberland - at least right now - is the best option to maximize that output.
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You've got it nailed, except it's not about replacing Cotchin and Mansell, but adding to the mix of Bolton & Martin rotating between forward and midfield. If Noah gets up to speed, we can always have 2 offensive weapons playing up around the ball and a genuine mid sized goal kicking in F50 to compliment our marking options in Lynch and Jack/Ryan
 
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