A Third Team In Sydney - It's Only a Matter Of Time !!

[Garlic muncher]

They went for Sydney because it had the support of sponsors and HSV 7

• 1977 – December 23. Ron Barrassi presents a plan to the VFL for a team in Sydney with himself as the coach.
• 1978 – April 26. VFL board of Directors authorises the VFL to investigate the Sydney Cricket Ground hosting Sunday VFL matches.
• 1980 – July 29 – VFL approves South Melbourne plan to play 11 home games in Sydney from 1981.
• 1980 – The Hennessy Report recommends a team be established in Sydney. The team would be profitable, making profits of $750,000 after three years, and drawing 17,000 average crowds in the first year up to 20,000 in the third. (Football Limited, pg, 93)
• 1981 – January 28. VFL appoints Graham Huggins to do a study into launching a full time VFL side in Sydney. The study takes 5 months
• 1981 – June 17. Huggins report is tabled to the VFL board recommneding immediate expansion. Under the Huggins report Sydney would be controlled by a VFL trust, and have a trial period of three years in the league before becoming a full member.
• 1981 – July 1. South Melbourne asks the VFL to fixture all home games in Sydney and all away games at VFL Park under lights

I am not disputing any of that above, but they went for Sydney because it might become the jewel in the crown, it would give the national game a national footprint, a footprint i have no doubt many administrators had wanted since 1858 and definitely in Sydney since matches involving Melbourne teams to promote the game had been played there since the 1880's.

The idea of a Sydney team in the VFL was a natural progression to what had transpired over the previous 100 years.

 

[jatz14]

I am not disputing any of that above, but they went for Sydney because it might become the jewel in the crown, it would give the national game a national footprint, a footprint i have no doubt many administrators had wanted since 1858 and definitely in Sydney since matches involving Melbourne teams to promote the game had been played there since the 1880's.

The idea of a Sydney team in the VFL was a natural progression to what had transpired over the previous 100 years.

Until relatively recently, state leagues were almost completely insular. None of them were after a national footprint. If they saw Sydney as anything prior to about 1970, it was as a way to make money for the VFL (emphasis on the V), and it had nothing to do with expanding the game.

Tell a Vic in 1960, or 50 or 40 that the VFL should expand to Sydney, they laugh in your face. Even the move to Sydney when it did happen was not about the game nationally, or even in NSW, it was about the game in Victoria.

 

[Garlic muncher]

Until relatively recently, state leagues were almost completely insular. None of them were after a national footprint. If they saw Sydney as anything prior to about 1970, it was as a way to make money for the VFL (emphasis on the V), and it had nothing to do with expanding the game.

Tell a Vic in 1960, or 50 or 40 that the VFL should expand to Sydney, they laugh in your face. Even the move to Sydney when it did happen was not about the game nationally, or even in NSW, it was about the game in Victoria.

But I never suggested that the VFL wanted or planned a Sydney team in those years, until around the 1970's the VFL thought the best way to expand the game was through practice matches, premiership matches etc in Sydney.

The VFL even in the 1970's like now was considered the self appointed keeper of the code, the ANFC was considered by many be a arm of the VFL

 

[telsor]

With Tasmania growing and being in close proximity to Victoria I think Hobart would need to be expanded to 30-35k and Launceston 25-30k. When hype was around about Tasmania possibly getting a team last time the AFL expanded, Hawthorn games at Launceston were booming, practically sold out every game.

You might want to check that assumption.

It's fairly stable currently (up a thousand or two a year) and most forward estimates have it going into decline before too long.

30-35K in Hobart would take ~15% of the local population to fill...It'd be the equivalent of Melbourne filling a 600K stadium.

 

[telsor]

There was plenty of games, but only 2 games for premiership points, that was probably a bigger thing back then since we have been slowly conditioned to accept it these days.

They've played several games in many places...Sheparton for example...are you suggesting that that is a major focus for them too?

I am not even sure what you are arguing.

That until quite recently (15-20 years ago), the Sydney market was a very minor thing for the AFL.

 

[The_Wookie]

I am not disputing any of that above, but they went for Sydney because it might become the jewel in the crown, it would give the national game a national footprint, a footprint i have no doubt many administrators had wanted since 1858 and definitely in Sydney since matches involving Melbourne teams to promote the game had been played there since the 1880's..

Sorry, I dont buy this at all. Ive got numerous AFL history texts here and not one of them refers to a serious push or plan for Sydney before 1977. Exhibiton games were played primarily under the auspices of the ANFC, not the VFL.

 

[Garlic muncher]

Sorry, I dont buy this at all. Ive got numerous AFL history texts here and not one of them refers to a serious push or plan for Sydney before 1977. Exhibiton games were played primarily under the auspices of the ANFC, not the VFL.

I don't think there was a written plan, but i can quote from 1903 ... The Australian Town and Country newspaper of May 27, 1903, headlined the match as “An Invasion of New South Wales.” It said: “The visit of the Collingwood and Fitzroy teams to Sydney is the latest attempt to attract the attention of Sydney people towards that form of football which was evolved in Melbourne some 40 years ago. It is an expensive advertisement, for it will cost the Melbourne clubs close on 1000 pounds for expenses.”

http://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/collingwood-tackles-fitzroy-in-1903-in-sydney/

I think the VFL in one form or another has been promoting the game in Sydney for 140 + years, and at different times has been more serious about it at than others.

 

[speedpeck23]

I am not disputing any of that above, but they went for Sydney because it might become the jewel in the crown, it would give the national game a national footprint, a footprint i have no doubt many administrators had wanted since 1858 and definitely in Sydney since matches involving Melbourne teams to promote the game had been played there since the 1880's.

The idea of a Sydney team in the VFL was a natural progression to what had transpired over the previous 100 years.

Agree, Sydney was always on the agenda....however the then VFL could get there...It turned out to be for better or worse via South Melbourne's demise. Also agree that Sydney is the critical location for AFL expansion. It is massively important in being a critical part of the national footprint for the game. The key point about 2 teams in Sydney is you get a match every weekend and you can create a rivalry. Putting a third team there doesn't really change much and doesn't really contribute any further to a truly national footprint.

To me the current "footprint" is incomplete without Tassie and NT. It would be a totally different approach to set up AFL clubs in Tassie and NT compared to Sydney but I think it is totally achievable. The AFL could then validly claim a relevant national game...the game itself could then really become a part of the national psyche. The spin offs for the game and communities throughout the country could be enormous.

 

[SgtSchulz]

Botany Bay?
Sutherland?
South Sydney?

 

[Garlic muncher]

Botany Bay?
Sutherland?
South Sydney?

Have no clue about a name but I am firmly of the opinion that Sydney will have a third team and it will be based in southern Sydney

 

[SgtSchulz]

Have no clue about a name but I am firmly of the opinion that Sydney will have a third team and it will be based in southern Sydney

Botany Bay Bluefins?

 

[Garlic muncher]

Botany Bay Bluefins?

Maybe Southern Blue fins

 

[madmug]

Have no clue about a name but I am firmly of the opinion that Sydney will have a third team and it will be based in southern Sydney

Why? Whats their that would support a professional AFL club?
You may as well stick a club on Ayers rock & throw $40million a year at it.

 

[Garlic muncher]

Why? Whats their that would support a professional AFL club?
You may as well stick a club on Ayers rock & throw $40million a year at it.

Called Uluru these days

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Have no clue about a name but I am firmly of the opinion that Sydney will have a third team and it will be based in southern Sydney

East hills, North Sydney would be a better options if you want to get into an untapped growing area.

Southern Sydney is not only a strong swans area you have two NRL clubs in the area and the place is mostly tapped out in terms of development and growth in fact the area is becoming a target for Gentrification and set to loose a lot of youth.

You could go into Sutherland but given the state of the train lines in and out of the place and the current strategy of the NSW government for ground consolidation they would have to play out of either the SCG or the showgrounds. nether of which are good options.

Where as North Sydney's development with light rail and the M4 east will allow travel from North Sydney population to travel around the 1.5 hour mark to either the SCG or the showgrounds. not an easy sell but still much better then Sutherland.

east hills express trains mean getting to the SCG is doable but the the showgrounds are probably off limits particularly for week night games.

But unless major rail changes or the AFL building a stadium in sutherland i can't see anything working south of the city.

 

[Our Game]

You might want to check that assumption.

It's fairly stable currently (up a thousand or two a year) and most forward estimates have it going into decline before too long.

30-35K in Hobart would take ~15% of the local population to fill...It'd be the equivalent of Melbourne filling a 600K stadium.

Ive always said that neither of the Tassie towns are big enough of a full time team based there with Hobart being the best option.

 

[Garlic muncher]

GIANT STRIDES

2016 pre-season membership target: 15,000

2016 actual membership: 15,311 (up 13.58 per cent on 2015). More than half of NSW-based NRL clubs and more than seven NRL clubs in total.

2017 membership target: 20,000, revised up from 17,000 before club made finals

12.4 per cent revenue growth, 9.6 per cent profit increase, operating surplus of around $10,000, before depreciation of its training and administration facilities were factored in, in 2015/16 financial year.

2016 home game attendances: Up 17 per cent from 10,786 average in 2015.

2016 television audience: Up 40 per cent from gross cumulative audience of 5,845,282 in 2015.

2016 online audience: Up 95 per cent

http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/...e-2017-membership-target-20160922-grm7o3.html

Perhaps the third team is closer than we think, maybe 5-10 years away.

 

[Garlic muncher]

East hills, North Sydney would be a better options if you want to get into an untapped growing area.

Southern Sydney is not only a strong swans area you have two NRL clubs in the area and the place is mostly tapped out in terms of development and growth in fact the area is becoming a target for Gentrification and set to loose a lot of youth.

You could go into Sutherland but given the state of the train lines in and out of the place and the current strategy of the NSW government for ground consolidation they would have to play out of either the SCG or the showgrounds. nether of which are good options.

Where as North Sydney's development with light rail and the M4 east will allow travel from North Sydney population to travel around the 1.5 hour mark to either the SCG or the showgrounds. not an easy sell but still much better then Sutherland.

east hills express trains mean getting to the SCG is doable but the the showgrounds are probably off limits particularly for week night games.

But unless major rail changes or the AFL building a stadium in sutherland i can't see anything working south of the city.

I must admit i have not lived in Sydney for some time, so i am not disputing anything you have to say about transport or gentrification etc, but 2 things recently made my ears prick up in regards to a possible 3rd Sydney team, and of course i would not expect it any time soon if at all.

The first was Fitzpatricks statement that within the next 20 years they hope to be number 1 sport on the East Coast of Australia, that IMO can not be done with only 4 teams representing 50% of the population and in particular the Sydney, Newcastle, CC and Gong areas which are about 30% of Australia's population.

The second was the AFL putting money into a facility all the way down at Miranda ... Having invested $700,000 into the facility, Club Waratah is the AFL’s second largest community infrastructure project in New South Wales – Blacktown International Sportspark being the largest.

http://aflnswact.com.au/blog/2016/08/08/afl-invests-sutherland-shire-facility/

Why not put that money into WS, or the Northern or Eastern suburbs where the game has a much greater presence, Miranda is a long way from WS or the Northern and Eastern suburbs.

Admittedly, pretty flimsy evidence, if you could even call it that, but perhaps the AFL is putting in the first building blocks into possibly a third team, one that incorporates Kogarah and Sutherland shires or one that incorporates Liverpool down to Campbelltown.

 

[speedpeck23]

I must admit i have not lived in Sydney for some time, so i am not disputing anything you have to say about transport or gentrification etc, but 2 things recently made my ears prick up in regards to a possible 3rd Sydney team, and of course i would not expect it any time soon if at all.

The first was Fitzpatricks statement that within the next 20 years they hope to be number 1 sport on the East Coast of Australia, that IMO can not be done with only 4 teams representing 50% of the population and in particular the Sydney, Newcastle, CC and Gong areas which are about 30% of Australia's population.

The second was the AFL putting money into a facility all the way down at Miranda ... Having invested $700,000 into the facility, Club Waratah is the AFL’s second largest community infrastructure project in New South Wales – Blacktown International Sportspark being the largest.

http://aflnswact.com.au/blog/2016/08/08/afl-invests-sutherland-shire-facility/

Why not put that money into WS, or the Northern or Eastern suburbs where the game has a much greater presence, Miranda is a long way from WS or the Northern and Eastern suburbs.

Admittedly, pretty flimsy evidence, if you could even call it that, but perhaps the AFL is putting in the first building blocks into possibly a third team, one that incorporates Kogarah and Sutherland shires or one that incorporates Liverpool down to Campbelltown.

AFL will be working at grass roots level everywhere in NSW and Qld...they will be promoting the game and attempting to make those 4 clubs GWS,SS,BL and GC as big as any other AFL clubs......they will of course promote junior clubs all over the place.....but a third Sydney club would be counter productive....at least until GWS and Sydney Swans are the biggest clubs in the AFL.....that's some distance away....I think, maybe ??!

 

[jatz14]

GIANT STRIDES

2016 pre-season membership target: 15,000

2016 actual membership: 15,311 (up 13.58 per cent on 2015). More than half of NSW-based NRL clubs and more than seven NRL clubs in total.

2017 membership target: 20,000, revised up from 17,000 before club made finals

12.4 per cent revenue growth, 9.6 per cent profit increase, operating surplus of around $10,000, before depreciation of its training and administration facilities were factored in, in 2015/16 financial year.

2016 home game attendances: Up 17 per cent from 10,786 average in 2015.

2016 television audience: Up 40 per cent from gross cumulative audience of 5,845,282 in 2015.

2016 online audience: Up 95 per cent

http://www.smh.com.au/afl/afl-news/...e-2017-membership-target-20160922-grm7o3.html

Perhaps the third team is closer than we think, maybe 5-10 years away.

Assuming growth is continuous, but you would have to expect periods of stagnation or regression in that time.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

 

[Garlic muncher]

Assuming growth is continuous, but you would have to expect periods of stagnation or regression in that time.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

True

 

[Garlic muncher]

AFL will be working at grass roots level everywhere in NSW and Qld...they will be promoting the game and attempting to make those 4 clubs GWS,SS,BL and GC as big as any other AFL clubs......they will of course promote junior clubs all over the place.....but a third Sydney club would be counter productive....at least until GWS and Sydney Swans are the biggest clubs in the AFL.....that's some distance away....I think, maybe ??!

Maybe they are looking at smaller clubs like GWS and placing another one, Sydney is harder to get around unless you are a big fan you don't go far in Sydney from looking at RL, perhaps another smaller club like GWS at a smaller stadium is the go in Sydney, when i say smaller i mean a stadium around 30k.

Of course that begs the question of another stadium, so it is just all surmising, i would have thought another club in Sydney would not be able to run out of the SCG or Spotless, it would need to be further North or a fair way south.

You would need partnerships with cricket etc

 

[speedpeck23]

Maybe they are looking at smaller clubs like GWS and placing another one, Sydney is harder to get around unless you are a big fan you don't go far in Sydney from looking at RL, perhaps another smaller club like GWS at a smaller stadium is the go in Sydney, when i say smaller i mean a stadium around 30k.

Of course that begs the question of another stadium, so it is just all surmising, i would have thought another club in Sydney would not be able to run out of the SCG or Spotless, it would need to be further North or a fair way south.

You would need partnerships with cricket etc

I always thought North Sydney would be an ideal location for an AFL team...rail access, great ground...although would need re configuration...but really the Swans have got that region tied up...lots of AFL fans from southern states , particularly corporate level move there with family.....I honestly think the AFL will settle for having the 2 biggest football clubs in Sydney...and that will be it.

I think in time the expansion will realise a bigger goal.......the AFL will brand itself as the competition for all of Australia (include NT and Tassie). It would be crazy to try to put NRL out of business...NRL is rusted on in Sydney like the Opera House and Harbour Bridge....that's no problem really for the AFL...they can co-exist...

To my mind the AFL has much bigger fish to fry than worrying about another Sydney team.... The spinoffs for the game and the community with a truly national AFL footprint would be enormous.....socially, business, sport, ...in other words the AFL can use the popularity of the game to help the community which in turn helps grow the game....This is not to the exclusion of any other sport..including NRL. The introduction of Women's AFL is a major step in this direction.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

18 teams in New South Wales ... the AFL dream.

 

[Underarm]

Maybe they are looking at smaller clubs like GWS and placing another one, Sydney is harder to get around unless you are a big fan you don't go far in Sydney from looking at RL, perhaps another smaller club like GWS at a smaller stadium is the go in Sydney, when i say smaller i mean a stadium around 30k.

Of course that begs the question of another stadium, so it is just all surmising, i would have thought another club in Sydney would not be able to run out of the SCG or Spotless, it would need to be further North or a fair way south.

You would need partnerships with cricket etc

Rugby league would do a lot better if they got rid of most of the suburban grounds and people got used to going to either SFS or ANZ every week.